> At the same time, the press service states that some of the staff will continue to have access to a special platform for AI assistants, which the Government Offices themselves developed, and through which they gain access to ChatGPT and Claude.
Sounds like they just want to maintain control over the outbound traffic which sounds rather sensible to me.
The contracts are really worthless if for example Trump wants to share the transcripts with Putin. At this point I don’t understand why governments would outsource any of their data services to 3rd parties (I.e outside of the EU). EU should establish an EU gov cloud program and just run the models themselves for all the EU countries(under license of course). They would probably get better bargaining power as well.
You’ve leapt to the most extreme scenario to declare these contracts worthless.
Of course something like what you describe could happen. But under the central case, ensuring some privacy (with the ability to seek damages if breached) whilst still providing access to frontier models seems like a reasonable trade-off with a lot of value.
When it comes to government data, contracts are often much stronger than you may be used to in the private sector, as mishandling the data can be criminal in nature. And data sovereignty requirements are common. This stuff is table stakes when selling to governments.
Such a thing would require building data centers, i.e. industrial compute factories, but the EU is politically paralyzed from doing that because electricity is already outrageously expensive and there is just sort of a general popular outrage about the prospect of it.
> the EU is politically paralyzed from doing that because electricity is already outrageously expensive and there is just sort of a general popular outrage about the prospect of it.
That is called democracy. Where the good of citizens is valued above what big corporations want. To push up pollution and power prices so big American tech companies can play with AI seems something that only a mad king would do.
If AI can find cancers faster than a human, which they've already proven, it's tradeoff that's worth it. It's only getting better and there's no telling how else it will benefit humanity.
Governments are always at least a decade behind when it comes to technology. Just don't complain when they have massive data breaches weekly, because they decided their principals were more important.
Your latter point belies the former: The the trade-off is only worth it if the data centers are used for purposes that benefit humanity. As yet, all we've seen them used for is wealth consolidation (through labor force reduction), mass surveillance, hacking, and other antisocial behaviors. There's no reason to believe those won't persist as the profit-maximizing use cases.
It's not democracy. People don't want high energy prices. It's just their only voting options are all politicians who will give them high energy prices.
Big corporations are only big because they provide what customers want. They don't get to extract money from people's work, the way politicians can.
Germany spent most of the last two decades shutting down nuclear power plants while blocking renewables because the politicians were sponsored by coal and gas companies.
Citizens are dumb though, the stupidity of the public killed nuclear. Not every decision needs to be democratic. Certainly not core infrastructure decisions.
It's also so easy to astroturf to manipulate public opinion. If I were China, I'd post so much anti-datacenter content everywhere in the West to gain a leg up in the race to superintelligence, because we are dumb enough to let our citizenry influence these decisions.
Imagine if we did the same thing for the nuclear race. ASI is winner-take-all, the first one to ASI can just lock everyone else out.
The recent growth of LLMs is a black swan. Any future prediction you attempt to make has massive error bars.
Europe is in a very precarious position. If LLMs actually play out and lead to economic booms (I'm not saying for individuals, note that), the EU as a whole will get absolutely trounced economically and likely experience a shrinking economy for the next 20+ years along with a shrinking population in most of the member countries. They are so far behind on power and compute of the US and China there is not any current path to catching up.
The US itself is in a precarious position with the amount of debt it has accrued, it could be right that LLMs are what leads to future economic booms, but be so far in the hole it takes decades to recover.
China is really in the best place at the moment. Trying to build up power and compute as fast as it can, copying American innovation at the cheap, and having a mountain of US and EU money to spend on it.
So our technoverlords should decide for us? All these arguments to go back to the middle ages and feudal systems are based on the idea that we should be oppressed and our opinion should not count. That thinking destroys enlighten societies and bring inequality and poverty.
It would be a mistake to blindly assume that democracy can survive the technical future. The rise of democracy went hand in hand with the importance of skilled labor. If the need for labor dies, at least in my eyes, democracy dies with it.
If I was a American oligarch who became president due to my ties to social media platforms and influence I would also advocate european governments use American AI services.
How is electricity outrageously expensive? We get power in the most flexible of forms (electrical) delivered directly to our homes at a rate that no human in history would have ever performed voluntary physical labor for (the equivalent of thousands of horses or people for a few hundred bucks an hour, assuming <500$/MWh). Even complete energy autarky has become feasible for private individuals if you are willing to invest.
Just because power used to be even cheaper in the recent past, by doing non-sustainable shit and pushing all the resulting costs onto others/the future does not mean that was ever appropriate, necessary or desirable, and everyone advocating for chasing that model is a greedy, selfish asshole in my view.
AI is local. They need to invest in procuring hardware, which means making it themselves if that is the only way to get a card in every computer that can do the job.
If cloud based AI is any good, they will sell versions that can be hosted locally just like every other service since the beginning of the internet.
I think one of the AI 2027 videos covered this pretty well. EU cannot make nor really afford the compute they need to buy. All they really have the ability to control is UV machines for making masks which is going to get politically hot very soon.
The US and China have claimed all production for years to come.
No, they use OpenAI with deployment in the Swedish data centers, which keeps inference local. Azure and GCP already offers this. No idea about Claude though.
Maybe it's what you meant, but let me underline that "local" does NOT mean under your control. As long it's with Microsoft, it will fall under the exactly same Cloud Act, so it can be shut off or copied over the pond on a whim.
You're right in theory, but it doesn't mean the US gov has unrestricted access to the data. There needs to be a legal process in place and there are safeguards that prevent accessing the data without that. This will happen to any company within US jurisdiction, as authorities can compel any provider to give them the required data.
You say that but that's not reflected in the law, and historically the us government has repeatedly created such sweeping surveillance systems. It's highly unlikely they only made it legal, and aren't using it sweepingly considering theyre on record doing so before it was legalized through the act before too...
And as that's international law... It's always kinda a coin toss whenever anyone actually pays it any attention. No real recourse if violated after all.
Same reason why the Fortune 200 company I'm currently doing some work for uses it. 70% discount on api costs compared with Anthropic, but access to the same Anthropic models.
Here every person gets $500 of copilot "credits" per month and that is a lot of use. $500 in Anthropic API gets used in 3 days.
The only disadvantage is that copilot cli has a very crappy and limited plugin system. For example a plugin can register a hook when a model calls a tool, but it's impossible to show a question to a user from such plugin.
Also it's "Autopilot" mode is designed to waste tokens. It injects things like "did you do absolutely everything you can about this? If not continue" and it's impossible to disable this without reverse engineering.
They have a business deal with Microsoft, they have no business deals with Anthropic or OpenAI. Employees were using their private subscriptions for work related tasks. I guess a strongly worded letter to the employees was not enough.
It is part of the trend to locally-hosted AI. I demoed my home rig (3x5060s) to my boss last week. It certainly was not as performant as commercial options, but was well above the 90% solution for what we needed. The boss was shocked at the price points for home-built hardware. Gaming GPUs are pricy, but are nowhere near the prices for commercial (rack-mount) compute hardware.
(People actually came by my desk to see "the AI", the physical thing. It blows people's minds to realize AI doesn't need a data center, that it is just some computer parts sitting on a desk.)
The big hitter AI companies see the writing on the wall: open source models and local AI rigs will decimate the market for big AI in the next few years.
I see this as the eventually end game. Open source models and local hardware are going to be the only path forward for companies as the AI providers move to a constant need to increase prices to drive profitability and stock price.
There's no particular benefit to keeping the hardware local unless you have extraordinary security requirements. Over time most of the workloads will end up in data centers with the cheapest electricity and real estate.
It is just a Asrock motherboard and 1000w corsair power supply sitting on the bottom shelf of a "mining rack" open air case. The GPUs are attached with janky pci risers (the motherboard has four pci slots). I went with 5060s so I could stay with "short" 2-fan cards. The boot drive is a 500GB NVME with an encrypted 2tb NVME for storage, both on the mobo. I added four cheap fans and an oldschool (with a nob) fan controller to circulate air away from the GPUs. RAM options are maxed out at 4x16GB DDR4 sticks. Expansion options include adding a fourth 5060 and any number of SATA storage drives for content/models.
It, of course, runs on linux. I went with stock ubuntu so I could attach a screen and/or remote in to a full GUI. Having a full GUI also makes the rig more relatable to people who's eye glaze over when they see a terminal interface. "It's just a funny-looking desktop computer."
At 48GB of VRAM it can run basically any LLM I would want to download. Speeds are fine for a single user (Tok/s numbers change based on model/mode). But if I were using it for something like ComyfUI I would ditch the multiple 5060s and go with a 5070ti or 5080 as ComfyUI does better with a single powerful GPU.
I don't think it will be the moment nvidia decide there's more money to be made in selling hardware for local-first inference. They'll do the training themselves and give the models away for free, like the toy in a box of cornflakes.
I'm sure cloud models will always have a slight edge but most tasks, most of the time, won't need that few extra percentage points of performance.
In a lot of sci-fi games an upgrade path for ship/cybernetic hardware is to replace the 'AI chip'. If the models performance ever start to plateau I can't wait to see AI models being baked into the chip itself.
Llama 3.1 8B baked into an ASIC. Expect 1/10th the power requirements, and other savings.
This is one of the reasons I don't believe the "it'll never be profitable" narrative. Just stop training when you think your model's "good enough" and move to custom silicon.
>> out of reach financially and technically for most people
Yes and no. I bought most of the hardware before the rampocalypse. It is just an AM4 chip on a nothing motherboard. Even today, 16GB 5060s are maybe 500 each. 64GB of DDR4 is another 500$. Add a power supply and pci risers and the basic parts could be purchased today for around 3000$... call it 4000$ all-in including my labor to get everything connected and talking to each other.
4000$ is money but is also almost nothing in the world of commercial IT purchases.
What a complete nonstory. Even at my 50 person startup we have an IT policy that requires employees to only use approved AI tools. For a government the only real news is that there wasn't already something in place enforcing this.
Same at my work. We have access to our own LLM tools that are backed by OAI/Claude depending on user pref, but with data retention/training contracts in place so they don't keep/train on our internal data.
I believe the problem is related to staff using free plans of Claude and ChatGPT.
I don't know for ChatGPT but Claude claims that it will keep your chat private and not use your data for training if you are on a paid plan [1], unless you decide otherwise: "By default, we will not use your inputs or outputs from our commercial products (e.g. Claude for Work, Anthropic API, Claude Gov, etc.) to train our models."
The same statement is missing from the free plan policy page [2]
So it's totally reasonable for a Government to block its staff from using free services as this may leak sensitive information. We are doing the same in my organization hoping to protect our intellectual property.
Seems like a non-story. It sounds like a ban on people using personal accounts with unsanctioned services and sending government data to them. Even most small companies might have restrictions like this.
This is just an IT org asserting control over how data moves in and out of the business/government. Its seems pretty reasonable that a company/government would want a contract in place with any provider they are sending data to. Oblivious that is going to have costs in agility and picking the best tools, but this is reasonable information security behaviour.
I'm surprised they aren't taking the extra step and moving to restrict data sharing to only EU based firms given... geopolitics.
It's not ideal, but governments already use MS products on a large scale. Quite some are cloud-based these days. And they are an established corpo that is doing well financially compared to pure model operator that might be broken up the day after tomorrow for spare parts by their investors and creditors, which put the confidentiality of the conversation logs into jeopardy.
On the one hand, it makes sense to focus on few whitelisted providers with whom there are explicit confidentiality agreements.
On the other hand, the simplest explanation is that the Microsoft grip on those government agencies is strong and with them already exclusively using the Microsoft ecosystem like all swedish public employers are (including universities), it's only the natural next step to strongarm them into using exclusively their AI offering as well.
Important note; “Government Offices of Sweden” or Regeringskansliet as it is named in Swedish is one specific agency. It does not imply, as the title might suggest, that the rule applies to all offices and agencies under the Swedish government.
I think some good background for this is also that Skatteverket ("Swedish IRS") has made headlines recently for allowing wide usage of Azure within its IT-infrastructure. Seemingly with very little investigation into the abysmal privacy/integrity/confidentiality posture of US-based cloud services.
I would suspect those headlines caused public officials to investigate how the public sector employees actually use AI chatbots.
I can't fathom why they would willingly try to migrate such critical operations away from a secure state-run system. I'm sure that system sucks in some ways. But those issues can be worked on, surely.
This seems to be because of sensitive data and auditing, not just contacts.
> The risks of unregulated AI use have been noted within a number of authorities where there has also been reason to take other measures.
> Among them is the Swedish Transport Administration, where the internal audit earlier this year discovered widespread and risky use of about ten different AI services and wrote as follows:
> "We have seen several examples of problematic use of open AI services. The examples concern both the sensitivity of the information entered and how the AI-generated responses have been handled."
> Some staff will continue to have access to a dedicated platform for AI assistants—developed in-house by the Government Offices—which provides access to ChatGPT and Claude.
> Internal information also indicates that, following a review, security measures for the approved tool Copilot have been strengthened. However, the press office has declined to provide details regarding these enhancements, citing security considerations.
Makes sense, you don't want civil servants sharing sensitive data with none vetted servicess.
I do feel for the civil servants that have to use Copilot though, it was a breath of fresh air to move to Claude Code when I did, and if Copilot is half as bad as the Google Gemini document integration, which loves to give you variants of "I can not do that". I get why they don't want to use it.
That is likely the case. Microsoft is shoving Copilot down everyones throat, whether they want it or not. The sales argument is always: "Why pay for another license if it's already included in O365?" Plus the fact that some data protection contract is already negotiated to be able to use O365 for email.
In the end, if employees are dissatisfied with Copilot, blocking Anthropic and OpenAI will just make people switch to their personal devices and use those services on their smartphones if necessary.
You are forgetting something very important. Microsoft has a much better track record of data policies being correctly enforced. Neither OpenAi or Anthropic have that.
It's not about the model or who gets the bribe, like a few folks in this thread imply, it's simply the guarantees that Microsoft is able to give to a public institution about what happens to their data.
> Microsoft is shoving Copilot down everyones throat
Of the three, I would rank Microsoft as less risky with data handling. Even if the other two are better products, I can see how data control is an important consideration in government. Of course, best is if they operate a fully controlled platform; that may yet be their endpoint.
That's why they backpedal on screenshoting entire screen, keeping images on device and feeding them to LLM? Yeah, for me all of them have 0% trust. Malware used to need to be installed, not part of OS
That's not how trust works in this context; the trust is in the handling of that data. It should be a given that if you're using a government machine, it's going to be under strict controls in the first place.
I would argue that there are two distinct kinds of trust here:
- Legal trust: Lawyers draft hundreds of pages specifying what may and may not be done with the data.
- Evidence-based trust: Looking at Microsofts actual track record, past privacy incidents, regulatory findings, and whether its data-handling practices have matched its disclosures and contractual commitments.
They've already established and accepted that level of trust with Microsoft and deemed it acceptable. In this particular case of Copilot vs OpenAI vs Anthropic, the question is whether OpenAI or Anthropic are higher trust than Microsoft when it comes to AI, data handling/retention, etc.
Just a reminder: Last year, the email address of the prosecutor of the International Criminal Court (ICC) was suspended. Karim Khan couldn’t access his Microsoft account and had to move to Proton Mail.
> Plus the fact that some data protection contract is already negotiated to be able to use O365 for email.
This is most likely the key thing. At least here in Europe, already having the processor agreements set up - and Microsoft actually at least trying to do the bare minimum regarding compliance - is worth a lot, even for a nominally inferior product.
One argument could be that they want to provide an AI solution, but maintain some level of control. Copilot can be bundled in with existing licenses, so it's a easier purchase in some sense.
Across the bridge, in Denmark, we've already seen a number of cases where government employees have use various AIs to help them do their job (and in many case used an AI to fail at doing their job). The result has been information about citizens just being entered into whatever AI the employee fancied, without worry about leaking private and sensitive information. I'm not entirely convinced that the public employees strictly speaking needs an AI, but if they are going to use one regardless, it makes sense that it's one that has been approved, whatever that might mean.
Seems like it's all about Copilot's increased security, but they refuse to talk about what that means. How is security increased? From what level, to what level? Does anyone know? ... A quick Bing search later, this M$ article is at least a starting point:
This seems to only be for a few of the offices as well. A famous project (at least in Swedish news) earlier this year introduced airgapped Kimi-based models for usage, but it got paused.
History will spend a lot of time exploring how the two front runners of AI mismanaged their rep and eroded public trust so severely that people rejected their transformative technology.
Right back at you. Remember the predictions that Cars would have nuclear reactors for engines, and would fly, and computers would connect the world leading to a surge in human IQ. Instead what we got was microwaves and social media and adaptive pricing. I am in favor of technology, innovation and progress but speed running adoption with mindless suspension of critical thinking about how to maximize benefits and minimize harms is moronic and actually undermines adoption and the progress we are seeking. Which was my whole point. OpenAI and anthropic may very well win but they have turned the world against the technology and the infrastructure needed to run it. Something like 80% of Americans are opposed to data centers. And I am hearing friends that are corporate leaders and academics doing a 180 about using AI because of the rhetoric and actions over the last 6 months
Now it's up to Society to train the average Joe and Mack to fly and LAND them safely, design some sensible ways to divide 3 dimensional traffic lanes in mid-air, and keep people inside those, and implement safeguards and consequences against crashing into apartment windows or falling on your cat.
Ironically that's the same with AI: The Technology is fucking awesome, but most of the problems you and other detractors complain about are problems in SOCIETY, and Society has to fix them.
> Something like 80% of Americans are opposed to data centers. And I am hearing friends that are corporate leaders and academics doing a 180
Bit dramatic headline. Every it department or whomever governs data on earth doing it's job is at least thinking of how the organization uses ai. What data it is fed, cost, what actions it can take.
Limiting the amount of tools sounds like a sane default in most cases.
Nothing in this necessarily say anything about one of the tools doing a better job than the other in this regard. It might say a little bit about trust though, warranted or not.
Loads of companies over a small size do this. They have an internal wrapper around the services and you just can’t go direct. Then they can meet local data retention and ensure the vendor is going through their ZDR path. You can even put safeguards inside your wrapper. It’s completely normal.
While interesting, it reminds me of all the headlines over the years about governments who were switching off of Microsoft Office to OpenOffice/LibreOffice. Needless to say Microsoft didn't close up shop.
Glad to know Swedish gov woke up. 6 moths ago they didn´t understood what are the cloud and external data collection. But the recent HugstonOne presentation went to the right people. Heya Sverige.
There should be a bonus for the sales guy at MS who managed to manipulate some midwit government employee into introducing government regulation to give them a monopoly.
HN is salivating and foaming at the mouth for others to ban US AI companies. The story is being upvoted on the headline alone. HN has turned into a disgusting place and has went the route of reddit.
Any university that has not banned these while offering local hosted models is stealing from you. The last thing a real university would do is allow a 3rd party to datamine all the students to destroy their careers before they graduate.
Universities used to do all this stuff in house with super computers, computing labs, personal webspace, email, search engines, etc.
We have this discussion with some public customers who want to use LLMs in our products. So far there is no official policy for the public sector so we are telling them to bring their own LLM model either by deploying models to azure in the region they want thus sifting the responsibility onto their contract with Microsoft and off our plate or sign a contract where they acknowledge they understand the risks of using third party llms (we offer, open ai, claude and mistral as providers for now).
Why would you need “AI” in a government office to begin with? Companies are heavily invested in it because of FOMO, but what are they getting from “AI” that’s so essential?
Make no mistake, using AI can be quite helpful and sometimes is necessary. What I mean by “AI” is the way Big Tech packages and sells every kind of automation.
> At the same time, the press service states that some of the staff will continue to have access to a special platform for AI assistants, which the Government Offices themselves developed, and through which they gain access to ChatGPT and Claude.
Sounds like they just want to maintain control over the outbound traffic which sounds rather sensible to me.
> Sounds like they just want to maintain control over the outbound traffic which sounds rather sensible to me.
Yeah, and probably also forcing Zero Data Retention contracts on those service, instead of the consumer variants.
The contracts are really worthless if for example Trump wants to share the transcripts with Putin. At this point I don’t understand why governments would outsource any of their data services to 3rd parties (I.e outside of the EU). EU should establish an EU gov cloud program and just run the models themselves for all the EU countries(under license of course). They would probably get better bargaining power as well.
You’ve leapt to the most extreme scenario to declare these contracts worthless.
Of course something like what you describe could happen. But under the central case, ensuring some privacy (with the ability to seek damages if breached) whilst still providing access to frontier models seems like a reasonable trade-off with a lot of value.
Something like this already happened, many times.
That doesn’t change my argument.
I’m not saying it won’t happen, I’m saying it’s outweighed for most by other concerns.
When it comes to government data, contracts are often much stronger than you may be used to in the private sector, as mishandling the data can be criminal in nature. And data sovereignty requirements are common. This stuff is table stakes when selling to governments.
Such a thing would require building data centers, i.e. industrial compute factories, but the EU is politically paralyzed from doing that because electricity is already outrageously expensive and there is just sort of a general popular outrage about the prospect of it.
> the EU is politically paralyzed from doing that because electricity is already outrageously expensive and there is just sort of a general popular outrage about the prospect of it.
That is called democracy. Where the good of citizens is valued above what big corporations want. To push up pollution and power prices so big American tech companies can play with AI seems something that only a mad king would do.
If AI can find cancers faster than a human, which they've already proven, it's tradeoff that's worth it. It's only getting better and there's no telling how else it will benefit humanity.
Governments are always at least a decade behind when it comes to technology. Just don't complain when they have massive data breaches weekly, because they decided their principals were more important.
Your latter point belies the former: The the trade-off is only worth it if the data centers are used for purposes that benefit humanity. As yet, all we've seen them used for is wealth consolidation (through labor force reduction), mass surveillance, hacking, and other antisocial behaviors. There's no reason to believe those won't persist as the profit-maximizing use cases.
It's not democracy. People don't want high energy prices. It's just their only voting options are all politicians who will give them high energy prices.
Big corporations are only big because they provide what customers want. They don't get to extract money from people's work, the way politicians can.
To be fair, the current spike in prices definitely wasn't from anything europeans were able to vote on...
Germany spent most of the last two decades shutting down nuclear power plants while blocking renewables because the politicians were sponsored by coal and gas companies.
> Big corporations are only big because they provide what customers want.
Big corporations are big because they purchased all competitors. I recommend that you read the book Enshitification.
Citizens are dumb though, the stupidity of the public killed nuclear. Not every decision needs to be democratic. Certainly not core infrastructure decisions.
It's also so easy to astroturf to manipulate public opinion. If I were China, I'd post so much anti-datacenter content everywhere in the West to gain a leg up in the race to superintelligence, because we are dumb enough to let our citizenry influence these decisions.
Imagine if we did the same thing for the nuclear race. ASI is winner-take-all, the first one to ASI can just lock everyone else out.
How definitive. I wish I had your certainty about literally anything.
There is no certainty, only probability.
The recent growth of LLMs is a black swan. Any future prediction you attempt to make has massive error bars.
Europe is in a very precarious position. If LLMs actually play out and lead to economic booms (I'm not saying for individuals, note that), the EU as a whole will get absolutely trounced economically and likely experience a shrinking economy for the next 20+ years along with a shrinking population in most of the member countries. They are so far behind on power and compute of the US and China there is not any current path to catching up.
The US itself is in a precarious position with the amount of debt it has accrued, it could be right that LLMs are what leads to future economic booms, but be so far in the hole it takes decades to recover.
China is really in the best place at the moment. Trying to build up power and compute as fast as it can, copying American innovation at the cheap, and having a mountain of US and EU money to spend on it.
Well, it doesn’t seem to be a time for dilly-dallying. IMO the danger and promise of AGI is through the roof, and the urgency is up there with them.
It’s time to decide your stand. But if you want to make an informed decision, you probably want to:
- Read up on the possible dangers until you get it,
- Learn about the advantages and breakthroughs already happening, and,
- Do some extensive work on a real project with at least an Opus-level LLM, so you really understand what an astounding new thing it is in our world.
> Not every decision needs to be democratic.
So our technoverlords should decide for us? All these arguments to go back to the middle ages and feudal systems are based on the idea that we should be oppressed and our opinion should not count. That thinking destroys enlighten societies and bring inequality and poverty.
It would be a mistake to blindly assume that democracy can survive the technical future. The rise of democracy went hand in hand with the importance of skilled labor. If the need for labor dies, at least in my eyes, democracy dies with it.
The Manhattan Project was not democratically confirmed. There are just some things you don't leave to the normies.
If I was a American oligarch who became president due to my ties to social media platforms and influence I would also advocate european governments use American AI services.
There are no data centers in the EU?
https://gcping.com/
Don't look at data centers by number, look at data centers by compute. The US has somewhere between 100 and 1000x more compute.
data center being in EU matters little when it is owned by US company that US govt can just tell "gimme that data"
Sure, even in colocation cases, Google LLC owns all the data, but we certainly do have DCs in the EU.
Now, do we have DCs with "temporary gas generators" operating 24/7 that were thrown together in the last 2 years? Probably not.
How is electricity outrageously expensive? We get power in the most flexible of forms (electrical) delivered directly to our homes at a rate that no human in history would have ever performed voluntary physical labor for (the equivalent of thousands of horses or people for a few hundred bucks an hour, assuming <500$/MWh). Even complete energy autarky has become feasible for private individuals if you are willing to invest.
Just because power used to be even cheaper in the recent past, by doing non-sustainable shit and pushing all the resulting costs onto others/the future does not mean that was ever appropriate, necessary or desirable, and everyone advocating for chasing that model is a greedy, selfish asshole in my view.
AI is local. They need to invest in procuring hardware, which means making it themselves if that is the only way to get a card in every computer that can do the job.
If cloud based AI is any good, they will sell versions that can be hosted locally just like every other service since the beginning of the internet.
> They need to invest in procuring hardware,
Ooops, too late.
I think one of the AI 2027 videos covered this pretty well. EU cannot make nor really afford the compute they need to buy. All they really have the ability to control is UV machines for making masks which is going to get politically hot very soon.
The US and China have claimed all production for years to come.
The internal service is Microsoft Copilot, so this is probably just a really really dumb decision.
Yes, my first thought on reading the headline was: "the result will be they'll just ensure everyone uses some worse AI models".
So only mildly surprised on reading the article to read they are intentionally forcing them onto a specific worse model.
No, they use OpenAI with deployment in the Swedish data centers, which keeps inference local. Azure and GCP already offers this. No idea about Claude though.
Maybe it's what you meant, but let me underline that "local" does NOT mean under your control. As long it's with Microsoft, it will fall under the exactly same Cloud Act, so it can be shut off or copied over the pond on a whim.
You're right in theory, but it doesn't mean the US gov has unrestricted access to the data. There needs to be a legal process in place and there are safeguards that prevent accessing the data without that. This will happen to any company within US jurisdiction, as authorities can compel any provider to give them the required data.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CLOUD_Act
You say that but that's not reflected in the law, and historically the us government has repeatedly created such sweeping surveillance systems. It's highly unlikely they only made it legal, and aren't using it sweepingly considering theyre on record doing so before it was legalized through the act before too...
And as that's international law... It's always kinda a coin toss whenever anyone actually pays it any attention. No real recourse if violated after all.
It doesn't matter what you think it needs to be, it matters what it is. And what it is is unlimited access to the US government.
I think with Anthropic the only way you get control of data residency is to use their models via another platform, so I tend to agree with you.
IIRC OpenAI do offer data residency controls but only to enterprise customers and subject to minimum spend.
why then are they using Microsoft Copilot?
Probably for the same reason as in most companies: Microsoft “assured” them that their data is safe… who cares about the Cloud Act, right?
Or: Microsoft has the data already, so why give the data to Anthropic and OpenAI, too?
Microsoft will helpfully house that data in China. The others won't.
AWS and GCP also use local Chinese joint-venture partners to comply with Chinese regulations. Warm greetings to Moscow!
I rather trust MS than OpenAI or Antrophic
MS don't train your data
MS barely trains on their own data given how shit copilot is even when dealing with MS stuff
That is one of the best assurances that we have these days, that is how bad is the situation.
I second this.
Same reason why the Fortune 200 company I'm currently doing some work for uses it. 70% discount on api costs compared with Anthropic, but access to the same Anthropic models.
Here every person gets $500 of copilot "credits" per month and that is a lot of use. $500 in Anthropic API gets used in 3 days.
The only disadvantage is that copilot cli has a very crappy and limited plugin system. For example a plugin can register a hook when a model calls a tool, but it's impossible to show a question to a user from such plugin.
Also it's "Autopilot" mode is designed to waste tokens. It injects things like "did you do absolutely everything you can about this? If not continue" and it's impossible to disable this without reverse engineering.
I dont think opting for copilot on a cost basis fit into "ban".
They have a business deal with Microsoft, they have no business deals with Anthropic or OpenAI. Employees were using their private subscriptions for work related tasks. I guess a strongly worded letter to the employees was not enough.
Because nobody was ever fired from choosing Microsoft, and apparently this still holds for AI?
It is part of the trend to locally-hosted AI. I demoed my home rig (3x5060s) to my boss last week. It certainly was not as performant as commercial options, but was well above the 90% solution for what we needed. The boss was shocked at the price points for home-built hardware. Gaming GPUs are pricy, but are nowhere near the prices for commercial (rack-mount) compute hardware.
(People actually came by my desk to see "the AI", the physical thing. It blows people's minds to realize AI doesn't need a data center, that it is just some computer parts sitting on a desk.)
The big hitter AI companies see the writing on the wall: open source models and local AI rigs will decimate the market for big AI in the next few years.
I see this as the eventually end game. Open source models and local hardware are going to be the only path forward for companies as the AI providers move to a constant need to increase prices to drive profitability and stock price.
There's no particular benefit to keeping the hardware local unless you have extraordinary security requirements. Over time most of the workloads will end up in data centers with the cheapest electricity and real estate.
Just like on-prem killed cloud?
Can you post a picture? It sounds super cool. Was it a specialized hardware, or a consumer mobo with 3 PCIe slots?
It is just a Asrock motherboard and 1000w corsair power supply sitting on the bottom shelf of a "mining rack" open air case. The GPUs are attached with janky pci risers (the motherboard has four pci slots). I went with 5060s so I could stay with "short" 2-fan cards. The boot drive is a 500GB NVME with an encrypted 2tb NVME for storage, both on the mobo. I added four cheap fans and an oldschool (with a nob) fan controller to circulate air away from the GPUs. RAM options are maxed out at 4x16GB DDR4 sticks. Expansion options include adding a fourth 5060 and any number of SATA storage drives for content/models.
It, of course, runs on linux. I went with stock ubuntu so I could attach a screen and/or remote in to a full GUI. Having a full GUI also makes the rig more relatable to people who's eye glaze over when they see a terminal interface. "It's just a funny-looking desktop computer."
At 48GB of VRAM it can run basically any LLM I would want to download. Speeds are fine for a single user (Tok/s numbers change based on model/mode). But if I were using it for something like ComyfUI I would ditch the multiple 5060s and go with a 5070ti or 5080 as ComfyUI does better with a single powerful GPU.
It's not locally hosted, as they say they will be accessing the same models but through a controlled system rather than on their own accounts
Interesting! How many token/s using what model are you getting out of it? And what are the other specs?
Cool, but that sounds out of reach financially and technically for most people
I don't think it will be the moment nvidia decide there's more money to be made in selling hardware for local-first inference. They'll do the training themselves and give the models away for free, like the toy in a box of cornflakes.
I'm sure cloud models will always have a slight edge but most tasks, most of the time, won't need that few extra percentage points of performance.
In a lot of sci-fi games an upgrade path for ship/cybernetic hardware is to replace the 'AI chip'. If the models performance ever start to plateau I can't wait to see AI models being baked into the chip itself.
Somebody did it... here we go: https://taalas.com/the-path-to-ubiquitous-ai/
Llama 3.1 8B baked into an ASIC. Expect 1/10th the power requirements, and other savings.
This is one of the reasons I don't believe the "it'll never be profitable" narrative. Just stop training when you think your model's "good enough" and move to custom silicon.
>> out of reach financially and technically for most people
Yes and no. I bought most of the hardware before the rampocalypse. It is just an AM4 chip on a nothing motherboard. Even today, 16GB 5060s are maybe 500 each. 64GB of DDR4 is another 500$. Add a power supply and pci risers and the basic parts could be purchased today for around 3000$... call it 4000$ all-in including my labor to get everything connected and talking to each other.
4000$ is money but is also almost nothing in the world of commercial IT purchases.
The article is about the Swedish Government, hopefully it wouldn't be out of reach for them.
They're using Copilot, not locally-hosted AI.
The rise of HugstonOne.
What a complete nonstory. Even at my 50 person startup we have an IT policy that requires employees to only use approved AI tools. For a government the only real news is that there wasn't already something in place enforcing this.
Same at my work. We have access to our own LLM tools that are backed by OAI/Claude depending on user pref, but with data retention/training contracts in place so they don't keep/train on our internal data.
I believe the problem is related to staff using free plans of Claude and ChatGPT.
I don't know for ChatGPT but Claude claims that it will keep your chat private and not use your data for training if you are on a paid plan [1], unless you decide otherwise: "By default, we will not use your inputs or outputs from our commercial products (e.g. Claude for Work, Anthropic API, Claude Gov, etc.) to train our models."
The same statement is missing from the free plan policy page [2] So it's totally reasonable for a Government to block its staff from using free services as this may leak sensitive information. We are doing the same in my organization hoping to protect our intellectual property.
[1] https://privacy.claude.com/en/articles/7996868-is-my-data-us...
[2] https://privacy.claude.com/en/articles/10023580-is-my-data-u...
Seems like a non-story. It sounds like a ban on people using personal accounts with unsanctioned services and sending government data to them. Even most small companies might have restrictions like this.
This is just an IT org asserting control over how data moves in and out of the business/government. Its seems pretty reasonable that a company/government would want a contract in place with any provider they are sending data to. Oblivious that is going to have costs in agility and picking the best tools, but this is reasonable information security behaviour.
I'm surprised they aren't taking the extra step and moving to restrict data sharing to only EU based firms given... geopolitics.
At first I was like: Nice, they ban AI because its all US based vendors and using them for government related data is not a good idea.
But then the story goes on and say MS Copilot is an approved AI... Sad thing to read.
It's not ideal, but governments already use MS products on a large scale. Quite some are cloud-based these days. And they are an established corpo that is doing well financially compared to pure model operator that might be broken up the day after tomorrow for spare parts by their investors and creditors, which put the confidentiality of the conversation logs into jeopardy.
Their second choice was using a hosted GLM-5.3 and calling it a “sovereign AI”.
On the one hand, it makes sense to focus on few whitelisted providers with whom there are explicit confidentiality agreements.
On the other hand, the simplest explanation is that the Microsoft grip on those government agencies is strong and with them already exclusively using the Microsoft ecosystem like all swedish public employers are (including universities), it's only the natural next step to strongarm them into using exclusively their AI offering as well.
Important note; “Government Offices of Sweden” or Regeringskansliet as it is named in Swedish is one specific agency. It does not imply, as the title might suggest, that the rule applies to all offices and agencies under the Swedish government.
I think some good background for this is also that Skatteverket ("Swedish IRS") has made headlines recently for allowing wide usage of Azure within its IT-infrastructure. Seemingly with very little investigation into the abysmal privacy/integrity/confidentiality posture of US-based cloud services.
I would suspect those headlines caused public officials to investigate how the public sector employees actually use AI chatbots.
Apparently Skatteverket was just about to migrate to Office 365 for email until other administrative agencies complained: https://www.realtid.se/it-tech/skatteverkets-microsoftmejl-s...
I can't fathom why they would willingly try to migrate such critical operations away from a secure state-run system. I'm sure that system sucks in some ways. But those issues can be worked on, surely.
TL;TR they want people to use Copilot
This seems to be because of sensitive data and auditing, not just contacts.
> The risks of unregulated AI use have been noted within a number of authorities where there has also been reason to take other measures.
> Among them is the Swedish Transport Administration, where the internal audit earlier this year discovered widespread and risky use of about ten different AI services and wrote as follows:
> "We have seen several examples of problematic use of open AI services. The examples concern both the sensitivity of the information entered and how the AI-generated responses have been handled."
> Some staff will continue to have access to a dedicated platform for AI assistants—developed in-house by the Government Offices—which provides access to ChatGPT and Claude.
> Internal information also indicates that, following a review, security measures for the approved tool Copilot have been strengthened. However, the press office has declined to provide details regarding these enhancements, citing security considerations.
Makes sense, you don't want civil servants sharing sensitive data with none vetted servicess.
I do feel for the civil servants that have to use Copilot though, it was a breath of fresh air to move to Claude Code when I did, and if Copilot is half as bad as the Google Gemini document integration, which loves to give you variants of "I can not do that". I get why they don't want to use it.
It appears they are only allowing Microsoft Copilot. So it seems like possibly this is contractual with their Microsoft office/windows licenses.
That is likely the case. Microsoft is shoving Copilot down everyones throat, whether they want it or not. The sales argument is always: "Why pay for another license if it's already included in O365?" Plus the fact that some data protection contract is already negotiated to be able to use O365 for email.
In the end, if employees are dissatisfied with Copilot, blocking Anthropic and OpenAI will just make people switch to their personal devices and use those services on their smartphones if necessary.
You are forgetting something very important. Microsoft has a much better track record of data policies being correctly enforced. Neither OpenAi or Anthropic have that.
It's not about the model or who gets the bribe, like a few folks in this thread imply, it's simply the guarantees that Microsoft is able to give to a public institution about what happens to their data.
That's why they backpedal on screenshoting entire screen, keeping images on device and feeding them to LLM? Yeah, for me all of them have 0% trust. Malware used to need to be installed, not part of OS
That's not how trust works in this context; the trust is in the handling of that data. It should be a given that if you're using a government machine, it's going to be under strict controls in the first place.
I would argue that there are two distinct kinds of trust here:
- Legal trust: Lawyers draft hundreds of pages specifying what may and may not be done with the data.
- Evidence-based trust: Looking at Microsofts actual track record, past privacy incidents, regulatory findings, and whether its data-handling practices have matched its disclosures and contractual commitments.
For the latter point, here is a nice summary from related to the use of Office prodducts in the Dutch goverment: https://www.privacycompany.eu/blog/new-dpia-on-microsoft-off...
They've already established and accepted that level of trust with Microsoft and deemed it acceptable. In this particular case of Copilot vs OpenAI vs Anthropic, the question is whether OpenAI or Anthropic are higher trust than Microsoft when it comes to AI, data handling/retention, etc.
Just a reminder: Last year, the email address of the prosecutor of the International Criminal Court (ICC) was suspended. Karim Khan couldn’t access his Microsoft account and had to move to Proton Mail.
> Plus the fact that some data protection contract is already negotiated to be able to use O365 for email.
This is most likely the key thing. At least here in Europe, already having the processor agreements set up - and Microsoft actually at least trying to do the bare minimum regarding compliance - is worth a lot, even for a nominally inferior product.
One argument could be that they want to provide an AI solution, but maintain some level of control. Copilot can be bundled in with existing licenses, so it's a easier purchase in some sense.
Across the bridge, in Denmark, we've already seen a number of cases where government employees have use various AIs to help them do their job (and in many case used an AI to fail at doing their job). The result has been information about citizens just being entered into whatever AI the employee fancied, without worry about leaking private and sensitive information. I'm not entirely convinced that the public employees strictly speaking needs an AI, but if they are going to use one regardless, it makes sense that it's one that has been approved, whatever that might mean.
> The use of AI services without a contract can have "consequences for our information security"
Totally logical and smart take. Any govt (or for that matter, anyone) not doing this is just giving all their data to these providers for free.
Anyone got experience with Claude Code gateways?
https://code.claude.com/docs/en/gateways
Seems like a good way to govern usage to an alternate model provider
Seems like it's all about Copilot's increased security, but they refuse to talk about what that means. How is security increased? From what level, to what level? Does anyone know? ... A quick Bing search later, this M$ article is at least a starting point:
https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft-365/copilot/secu...
This seems to only be for a few of the offices as well. A famous project (at least in Swedish news) earlier this year introduced airgapped Kimi-based models for usage, but it got paused.
History will spend a lot of time exploring how the two front runners of AI mismanaged their rep and eroded public trust so severely that people rejected their transformative technology.
History should spend some time looking at all the prediction-of-doom comments about shit that went on to conquer the world.
Some of my favorites: https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/apples-new-thing-ipod.5...
Right back at you. Remember the predictions that Cars would have nuclear reactors for engines, and would fly, and computers would connect the world leading to a surge in human IQ. Instead what we got was microwaves and social media and adaptive pricing. I am in favor of technology, innovation and progress but speed running adoption with mindless suspension of critical thinking about how to maximize benefits and minimize harms is moronic and actually undermines adoption and the progress we are seeking. Which was my whole point. OpenAI and anthropic may very well win but they have turned the world against the technology and the infrastructure needed to run it. Something like 80% of Americans are opposed to data centers. And I am hearing friends that are corporate leaders and academics doing a 180 about using AI because of the rhetoric and actions over the last 6 months
We have had flying cars for over a century: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helicopter
Technology already delivered.
Now it's up to Society to train the average Joe and Mack to fly and LAND them safely, design some sensible ways to divide 3 dimensional traffic lanes in mid-air, and keep people inside those, and implement safeguards and consequences against crashing into apartment windows or falling on your cat.
Ironically that's the same with AI: The Technology is fucking awesome, but most of the problems you and other detractors complain about are problems in SOCIETY, and Society has to fix them.
> Something like 80% of Americans are opposed to data centers. And I am hearing friends that are corporate leaders and academics doing a 180
Now that's just bs. Eat more fiber
> 20 minute skip protection
Thanks for this
They simply switched to Copilot.
Bit dramatic headline. Every it department or whomever governs data on earth doing it's job is at least thinking of how the organization uses ai. What data it is fed, cost, what actions it can take.
Limiting the amount of tools sounds like a sane default in most cases.
Nothing in this necessarily say anything about one of the tools doing a better job than the other in this regard. It might say a little bit about trust though, warranted or not.
Loads of companies over a small size do this. They have an internal wrapper around the services and you just can’t go direct. Then they can meet local data retention and ensure the vendor is going through their ZDR path. You can even put safeguards inside your wrapper. It’s completely normal.
How is it news that they have preferred tools that they enforce the usage of? Any decently competent IT org should do the same.
While interesting, it reminds me of all the headlines over the years about governments who were switching off of Microsoft Office to OpenOffice/LibreOffice. Needless to say Microsoft didn't close up shop.
A deal was signed behind closed doors.
Glad to know Swedish gov woke up. 6 moths ago they didn´t understood what are the cloud and external data collection. But the recent HugstonOne presentation went to the right people. Heya Sverige.
There should be a bonus for the sales guy at MS who managed to manipulate some midwit government employee into introducing government regulation to give them a monopoly.
Best way to officially support shadow AI at government, sounds great idea
Makes sense. MSFT is massive in the Nordics. Good luck OpenAI and Anthrop\c!
HN is salivating and foaming at the mouth for others to ban US AI companies. The story is being upvoted on the headline alone. HN has turned into a disgusting place and has went the route of reddit.
Any university that has not banned these while offering local hosted models is stealing from you. The last thing a real university would do is allow a 3rd party to datamine all the students to destroy their careers before they graduate.
Universities used to do all this stuff in house with super computers, computing labs, personal webspace, email, search engines, etc.
We have this discussion with some public customers who want to use LLMs in our products. So far there is no official policy for the public sector so we are telling them to bring their own LLM model either by deploying models to azure in the region they want thus sifting the responsibility onto their contract with Microsoft and off our plate or sign a contract where they acknowledge they understand the risks of using third party llms (we offer, open ai, claude and mistral as providers for now).
Total sovereignty starts with your own OS, LLM, GPS, processors, devices mobile and desktop, etc. Everything else is just delusion
>The block is introduced because they want employees to use the services approved by the government office, including Microsoft's AI tool Copilot.
Meh
Meh? Most orgs Beyond a certain size maintain a list of which vendors are acceptable.
Why would you need “AI” in a government office to begin with? Companies are heavily invested in it because of FOMO, but what are they getting from “AI” that’s so essential?
Make no mistake, using AI can be quite helpful and sometimes is necessary. What I mean by “AI” is the way Big Tech packages and sells every kind of automation.
I would too if I were a foreign government. The risk of another Room 641A is too high.