If it was done illegally, it shouldn’t have been done. But I wanted some numbers to put this in perspective.
Forest loss in Finland has averaged about 243,000 hectares per year in recent years through 2025
Finland has 20.3 million to 26.3 million hectares of forestry and forest land depending on the classification used.
The United States has a gross forest loss of about 3 million acres per year, which is largely offset by 2.6 million acres of non-forest-to-forest conversion.
Brazil cleared 985,000 hectares of forest last year.
India approved the diversion of 26,858 hectares of forest last year.
There are a lot of entities clearing lots of forest every day. Interesting that this one makes news.
Finland has a lot of people who care about forest and Finland needs to pay fines for EU if they don't have enough forest to suck CO2 from the air.
Google cut corners here, and didn't ask for the needed permissions. And the prime minister doesn't want to show his conversation with Google regarding this.
People are really pissed.
Edit: and the electricity prices are going up due to these data centers. And the profits from them don't stay in Finland, but go to American corporations. There should be Finnish data centers owned by Finns instead of having Google to take the cheap electricity and taking profits out.
Same thing with data centres in Norway. We're planning to waste heaps of our renewable energy on generating profits for a small cabal of assholes in SV. For what? Luckily there's been more political pushback against it here recently, but it's so tame. Just for once I'd like to see some conviction. Pause all ongoing constructions, and launch corruption probes into all the local politicians that pushed this stuff through. I bet there's lots of corruption there. On a national level, we don't have corruption on anything near the systemic scale you see in the US. Some bad apples, and lots of mole hills made into mountains by the press, but nothing like the US where it seems like most of congress is pretty much openly corrupt.
Local politicians though? Oh boy. Seems like every time there's some ongoing project in a smaller municipality involving commercial exploitation of natural resources(like undeveloped land, minerals, hydropower capacity, etc) there's a mayor and/or municipal council members who profit from it financially or otherwise. They have shares/board seats in a holding company owning the land, local contractors, etc. Seems like this is very widespread, and rarely leads to serious consequences, and even when it does, it happens so late that the project is already built, or so far underway it doesn't get stopped. Shit pisses me off.
I'm sure data centres are no different. Because I can't imagine a cost-benefit analysis of them that makes any sense from the point of view of the local community.
Like... the town where the Google datacenter goes gets like some paved bike road from Google who "takes care of the community". Price tag around the profits of less than an hour of the GPU time in that datacenter.
You know those companies are publicly owned and big % of American public owns shares in them?
Additionally Google employs some 100k people in US and almost as many in Europe.
Those are mostly very good jobs as well.
The whole anti-datacenters sentiments is stupid but "profits go to a handful of Americans" is just pants of fire kind of take.
You reminded me of something. I heard in the Czech Republic when communism ended, the state owned industries became owned by the public. Every citizen received a share.
I wonder if we're going to need something similar when AI nukes the economy.
It worked that way in Russia too. Some people managed to quickly consolidate those shares by exploiting the economic hardship of the people caused by the fall of the USSR by hoovering up those shares for Kopecks on the Rubel, and that's where the current day oligarchy was formed.
The transition from communism to capitalism was hardly as rosy as people in the West like to think.
Of course, how this unfolded varied. For example, unlike the chaotic Russian privatization that created a class of oligarchs, the transition in places like Poland favored a network of well-placed insiders, a highly structured network of intelligence officers (military, civilian), state managers, and flexible communist party elites, who - by controlling information, intelligence networks, and the liquidation apparatus - effectively laundered their authoritarian political privileges into financial dominance.
Yes. Should also cover what happened in East Germany when the wall went down. And people are now somehow surprised when everybody's kind of pissed outside of the few big cities.
Right, I think if we all had the same transparency, regulatory oversight, and involved electorate, we'd be as concerned with the other massive logging projects around the world.
I'm glad this one is getting attention, though. May the Finnish people show us how we can get it right.
Oh the logging projects also get a LOT of attention. It's just that the current government is center-right / far right, and they just let the logging to continue no matter the sanctions from the EU.
There are a lot of people who are against this, and protest against this. Looking at the polls, seems that it will change in the next elections, like a lot.
'Kovan viikon ilta' (the Finnish weekly late night show) said Google had filed for deforestation requests that were small enough they did not warrant an environmental impact review. But it turned out there were quite a few small, adjacent deforestation requests so yeah it was quite certainly illegal :D
That the outrage doesn't seem to extend to the other companies clearing the other 242,700 acres in Finland
[edit] Request for source on illegality of the clearing (article states Google claims it was legal - I don't see where it says anyone is refuting that)
>Request for source on illegality [...] I don't see where it says anyone is refuting that
the regulators are the ones refuting google's claims. the headline opens with:
"Finland's regulator says the environmental review came too late"
and the second paragraph of the linked article says:
"Google was apparently so eager to build its new data center infrastructure in Finland that it began bulldozing large swaths of forest __before the required environmental review of the full plan was complete__."
typically, doing something before the environmental review gives you a notice to proceed is illegal.
> If it was illegal them I’m sure the state prosecutors will take care of it.
In Finland prosecutors are not involved in most of the illegal things, they are only involved in criminal matters (and in some cases civil compensation claims which are linked to criminal case). Various regulators/authorities are the ones who enforce civil side.
In many cases the penalties that law allows those to authorities to issue are limited to ordering to stop doing that illegal thing, reprimands and conditional fines ("if you don't stop you need to pay fine"). Straight up fines tend to be more uncommon (unless individual is doing it, then fines tend to be very common). Targets of these can then file appeal in administrative court and usually behavior is allowed to continue while case is appealed (see e.g. various GDPR/ePD cases).
Finland has a very well managed forest. When I was there I was amazed about how carefully they cleared trees compared with what I was used to see in southern Europe. They are very proud of their wood houses, that they export everywhere, so wood management has to be excellent if they pretend to keep the business going. To see a foreign company just zeroing a forest with no intention of doing it right must hurt.
According to https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2026/oct/06/google-da..., they had to halt the construction because they failed to assess the environmental impact. The same article you say it doesn't refute that the leveling was illegal says that at least four areas that must be protected are now leveled. It sounds to me that Google is playing the card "it is done already, just fine us and let's move on" thanks to their deep pockets.
of course it does. do you think people are mad about clearing forests because it's Google doing it? no, Google is just the one that they just heard about this week. If it was someone else they'd be mad about that too, because it's anger based on principles. If Google had bulldozed a bunch of parking lots to make their data centers no one would care.
People are also concerned about those losses of forest too. And they do make the news. The rapid increase in rainforest loss in Brazil is often in the news.
Loss of forests affects us all. And they’re not as renewable as people think.
Brazil has one of if not the best laws about conservation on the planet!
with that said, ~ 80% of forest loss is due to livestock, which great part if not all expansions by now are illegal. we export most of our meat. now a bunch of moralist are worried with their bellies full of cheese and meat
With the current admin the deforestation rates in Brazil are now the lowest they have been for decades.
Unfortunately that will be over by next week probably :/
Also the forest was cleared on its own land. The owner by default can do whatever they want with their own forest. It was junk land and economic forest, not any Rivendell. Unlike to contain anything to protect.
Google cut 200 hectares, the requirement for environmental study was 150. It’s likely many Finnish companies exceeds the same threshold everyday without questions.
> The owner by default can do whatever they want with their own forest
Are you citing Finnish law here? Because where I live, this is not true. If you buy forest land, you're buying a lot of responsibilities along with it. You can mine the forest for wood some, but within parameters that ensure you won't kill it.
Hype scale data centers are extremely important, why do you feel it necessary to dismiss the valid concerns citizens have regarding them? Why do you feel it necessary to protect the beliefs of a corporation over the populace? Are there other anti-democratic views you have regarding people questioning the intentions of American big tech?
When people call out recycling because recycling plants use hundreds of thousands of gallons a day to wash off used plastic bottles (which all that sludge goes right back into the system), or they set their AC to 78 because of the incredible energy drain of cooling rooms to 70, I'll take those people more seriously.
I find that most of their "valid concerns" are actually "confused misunderstandings of social panic"
When we slot in datacenters on any hierarchy of impact, the only thing, literally the only they top the charts in, is "Makes a headline people click on". Everything else they're way down the list on. The stats are correct, the masses are just panicking.
Random voices on the internet that may not be individuals? Random survey results published by someone you trust? People you encounter in your day-to-day life?
I find it fascinating that Google as a corporation is considered more trustworthy than "they"
They refers to the people propping up the social panic about datacenters such that it is worthwhile for news orgs to publish even the smallest stories about them.
None of the counter arguments come from Google or any of the other hyperscalers. Anyone with mild research ability should be able to put DC numbers in context on their own.
You've made a lot of weird accusations here. 300 hectares of forest being cleared doesn't gain importance because "Hype scale" data centers are important.
Is "Shovel Purchased for Data Center Construction" an important story? If I say it's not, is it because I find it necessary to dismiss the valid* concerns citizens have regarding data centers? Is it because I find it necessary to protect the beliefs of a corporation over the populace? Is it because I hold loads of secret anti-democratic views regarding people questioning the intentions of American Big Tech™?
[*] Annoying question-begging, please never do this about any subject.
No, either you misunderstood or there was misinformation in the other thread.
There are two things that Google would’ve been allowed to legally do:
* Log the trees for economical use, then plant new ones on the property, definitely not do terrain alterations. But obviously that’s not what they wanted to do, they wanted to build a data center.
* Log less than 150 hectares, do any earthmoving etc needed within that area, build a data center.
There’s no world in which Google would’ve been allowed to log the 200 hectares and do all the other preparative work on the property that they’ve done. They were told that they need a YVA (evaluation of environmental impact) process before doing anything beyond some very light reversible preparations because the area they wanted to modify exceeded 150 ha.
Somehow, even with the ability to hire the best lawyers in the country, they either fucked up and misunderstood the relevant legislation and the quite clear communication from LVV, the govt office responsible, or they just ignored all that and reasoned that they can get away with it.
I rarely see people complaining about the insane amount of water that is used in meat production (trillions of liters worldwide) but almost constant discussions about water consumption of datacenters (millions of litres worldwide).
It’s complaining about the splinter in your eye but being oblivious to the giant wooden beam lodged in your brain.
It’s of course that people like meat on their plates but dislike AI for ideological reasons
idk where you live but vegetarianism is a hot topic in europe and in ecological circles, the problem is that you get borderline aggressed by meat eaters when you open your mouth about the topic.
Most people are too brainwashed to even start self reflecting about their meat consumption, everybody talk about data centers because we're spending 5x more on them since LLMs became the new messiah: https://ourworldindata.org/cdn-cgi/imagedelivery/qLq-8BTgXU8...
Clearly the poeple who Okd this and were meant to keep a watchful eye either havent been to Finland in their lives or were busy taking naps in the Google appointed nap room.
Doing anything in Finland involving a potted plant would attract the wrath of any of the 5 people who live there, so no bro Im not surprised.
Hmm this seems like whataboutism, but I'm not sure that was your intention. The big issue here is what you initially touched on: did they break the law?
I don't think those are necessarily fair comparisons either. Countries like Brazil and India may not have the same regulatory strength as countries in the EU and perhaps public appetite is not as sensitive to such matters either. Finland is well known for being very protective of their natural areas.
Here in the US, I've seen it make news when a neighbor cuts down a few trees on another neighbors property without permission. That doesn't make it any less valid of an issue than a company razing down acres worth.
> There are a lot of entities clearing lots of forest every day. Interesting that this one makes news.
Are you approaching this from the angle that we shouldn't be making this a big deal because we don't for the others? Because I would approach it from the opposite direction: we should make the others just as big (if not bigger) a deal as this.
The commenter’s insinuation is that the article was written in bad faith. Which do you think was closer to the journalist’s process in writing this article:
1) Start an investigation into deforestation, leading to the discovery of the deforestation caused by this datacenter?
2) Start an investigation into anything that maligns datacenters?
How is the article written in bad faith? Did you even read the title let alone the article?
The title: Google cleared 300 hectares of Finnish forest for a data center, and regulators want answers
The opening sentence: Finland's regulator says the environmental review came too late, Google says it followed the law
I'm going with option #1 here because the article represents both sides here equally and makes no claims that laws were broken, only that an investigation is underway. Point me to where it indicates #2 for you.
EDIT: It's not clear if you're simply pointing out OP's misgivings or stating yours in support. Either way, I would like to see evidence of scenario #2 if that's the contention here.
EDIT 2: the more I think to myself about this, the more silly it seems. This is from a website called techspot.com, they literally report on news regarding tech companies. So while it may not be "investigating deforestation" as you put it (which in itself is a ridiculous starting point and you know it), there's also no indication it's providing false news about Google just to bash on data centers.
Actual evidence for or against either motivation would involve investigating the journalist's notes, search history,... and we're obviously not getting any of that so all we have to work with is our priors. Here are mine:
-The amount of deforestation discussed in this article is miniscule compared to the global amount. The probability of the journalist investigating or the editor of the outlet deciding to platform this specific case by uniformly random chance is small.
-Negative news stories about datacenters, AI, tech, etc. are extremely common and highly engaging. The probability of a journalist/editor deciding to specifically seek out an anti-datacenter story is high.
Given these two priors, what do you think the journalists most likely motivations are (or do you disagree with my claims)? You were able to deduce my own motivations for posting, can you do the same for the news outlet?
And in order to not be a bad faith actor myself, let me clarify my motivations for posting: I am here to express dissatisfaction with an unreasonable amount of anti-datacenter bias in the media.
Do a search for "Google Finnish Trees" over the last 24 hours. Almost all of the articles are sensationalist titles that may lend some support to what you're saying, EXCEPT for a handful like the BBC and this specific TechSpot one; where they have remained neutral and factual.
If you look at that source, you can see it lists Sari Myllyoja, Head of Unit, Environmental Department, Communities and Infrastructure Unit. Does that seem like someone out to spread anti-datacenter news to you or someone just doing their job in environmentalism?
Your mission may not necessarily be wrong overall, but it is clearly wrong in this instance and context.
Let's agree to disagree. I don't see sensationalism as necessary to acting in bad faith. If anything, the veneer of disinterested inquiry can be more sinister (what is sometimes called "concern trolling"). Choosing to platform a certain story is a choice. Choosing what context to present and withhold is also a choice. "Google cleared 0.000...% of Finnish forest" is also a factual title.
I think you're moving goalposts. You posed this scenario, did you not:
> Start an investigation into deforestation, leading to the discovery of the deforestation caused by this datacenter?
I've provided evidence to suggest that's exactly what it was in this case. The head of the environmental department found evidence of deforestation and started an inquiry. Techspot (and many other outlets) picked it up because it mentions Google and they are a Tech publication. They provided a neutral view of the matter, sans bias. Those are the facts.
> The amount of deforestation discussed in this article is miniscule compared to the global amount.
By that logic, why not cut half of Finland's forests? I'm sure they won't mind since it's such a small area globally after all.
And I think there are also other nuances than just net loss of forest.
There's also another hypothetical angle to consider which is that Google's egregious deforestation here may be somewhat self-limited due to prior knowledge of Finnish environmental regulations being more strictly enforced. "It is easier to ask forgiveness than it is to get permission" comes to mind. Imagine then what Google could be doing in other areas of the world where they can freely pave through the land without such oversight. The cumulative destruction then becomes a much larger issue than this "small" chunk of land.
For anyone else who can never remember how much a hectare is and think "420 football fields" sounds more like some weed joke than an area: 300 hectares = 3 sq km
/ ~1.16 sq miles
If it's found they really did skip the required steps then I hope there is actual action about it.
It's also odd to me we seem to find the need to build AI DCs near population centers, in forests, and/or by/with new fossil fuel plants. Does it really matter so desperately if it takes your AI query an extra 10 ms to go to the middle of nowhere and we have to wait to build renewable or nuclear power to scale it for what we gain in return of that choice?
> Does it really matter so desperately if it takes your AI query an extra 10 ms to go to the middle of nowhere and we have to wait to build renewable or nuclear power to scale it?
The middle of nowhere in Finland is likely to be a forest (about 80% coverage).
Interesting the forest area in question doesn't appear to be some sort of amazing old growth forest thats been there for centuries it appears to be old logging sites that was maybe reforested a few decades or so ago.
Maybe the answer is not to build them in Finland if there is really no more useless land there (unless Finland is explicitly asking for the DC to be built in the country for other reasons) but there is elsewhere. Even if it was, that's still less than 0.5 ms from a city of 200k+, surely there is some option better for the climate in 20x the radius!
I do like that it is at least a naturally cooler place, which is more consideration than most DCs get. And, being Finland, I'd imagine a decently cleaner power mix than usual for a new DC? Both of these are fair things to give credit and support for IMO - not everything has to be outrage.
Off the top of my head Finland seems to tick a lot of boxes: low population density, good local availability of water without competing uses, low electricity prices, very green electricity (lots of nuclear, hydro, wind), good infrastructure, cold climate
Apart from this being in a forest, this seems like an ideal place. And places that are not used for agriculture or human habitation but do have water available have a habit of being forests (or mountains)
Nuclear power plants take a very long time to build, it can be 7-10 years before you even begin construction due to all the permits, politics and planning.
As for scaling massive amounts of solar/wind... that's exactly what China is doing to power their infrastructure buildouts.
7-10 years to scale it right is better than immediately doing it wrong in my mind! Or what China is doing if they really just can't wait to scale (though my understanding is China is still increasing the total amount of power generated via coal even though the percentage of power generated via coal is going down - so not quite the full step needed).
Just a note that forestry in Finland is managed, this means it is planted and harvested on a rotating basis. There seems to have been a huge messup here without securing the proper permits first. But any reporting you read describing it as an environmental problem will be nonsense as the trees would have been harvested at some point anyway.
However I understand that data-centres have become a political issue, and therefore my facts will be meaningless to a half of readers.
yeah I was wondering about this since when I looked on the map the "forest" area in question appears to be rather new and was clearly part of a reforestation effort also the first thing I saw when randomly looked at the street view in the area was logging trucks harvesting the trees.
This isn’t necessarily about the loss of the trees, but cutting them down possibly without an environmental study. The logging and loss of a large block of trees might effect the nearby agricultural land, the water table, rivers/flooding, displaced wildlife might be forced into towns and crops etc
I'd recommend everyone to familiarize how these forests were formed in the first place. They are not some natural thing, nor any ecologic sanctuaries. They are the result of immense postwar hubris and greed, draining ecologically precious and fragile wetlands to create poor (semi-)monoculture plantation forests whose only destiny ever was to get clearcut later.
Of course Google is (likely) still at fault here and should have managed this better, but it is important to understand the context also.
Trivia: They did it locally at their home town Mountain View (in much smaller scale), then realized that they didn't need that land, and now are planting them back.
It would be nice if the article referenced any plans of offsetting the removal by planting elsewhere, or any plans of replanting trees at the site after construction.
2009 Ecosia was founded and advertises with planting trees, according to their website 257,444,718 as of now. (> 1 M per month) At the same time Google fell 250,000 trees in a few months. (~0.1 M per month)
Google should just purchase and protect 3,000 hectares in another area as a sort of offset. For a few million bucks they could establish a park/reserve that would forever be protected. It heads off bad publicity by at least providing a positive impact
I don't understand the politicians wanting all these data centers. It's not a lot of jobs. And when these datacenters are built for a US-company, big fat chance that a European alternative has less chance of a good spot. It's utterly stupid. And then there is the electricity usage, the uglyness, environmental issues.
I think the property taxes go up as the land captured is usually fallow so it goes from negligible property tax revenue to small. And although there aren't a ton of jobs like a factory, it's still jobs that wouldn't exist as data centers use land that literally no one else wants to do anything with.
I mean you could say something similar about most utilities though. Google will pay taxes on their investment to Finland and the services will be available to people in the region whats else would you really ask for?
So Google reduced the forested land by 0.00000013%
I'm so tired of every news outlet trying to turn everything datacenter related into a panic-worthy event.
The real story is a debate about whether they followed the right procedures. Google says they did. The chair of a Finnish Nature Conservation Association says maybe they didn't:
> She is asking the LVV to halt the entire construction site so that authorities can determine whether Google tried to bring the forest down without first obtaining formal approval.
So they want to halt construction to determine if any permitting approval wasn't done appropriately? This is getting so much press that I assumed they had actual evidence that this was illegal, not just someone's suspicion and request to investigate.
Forested land is rotated with trees to provide a sustainable resource without removing it.
Google bulldozing a square mile of trees is not comparable to normal forestry operations, because they are not replacing it with trees. They are replacing it with a massive concrete building which will produce loads of heat and suck up loads of local power and water.
This is why there is outrage, not because they are destroying the trees but what they are doing in the place of them.
This article is a bit old, LVV has already ordered Google to stop construction until the YVA processes are done. What is still unclear is if Google will face any repercussions for acting before the YVA was done, but it is looking unlikely.
That seems like a bit of a false equivalency this was not some precious old growth forest, it was basically a managed logging area so more comparable to some farm land in the US, and this is me speaking as a certified tree hugger here.
> Considerable land and forest construction work continued illegally at Muhos and Kajaani data center sites for months before LVV (permit and supervision agency) intervened.
> Work has been against YVA (environmental protection) laws.
(I did not see a link to English version, so feel free to use your favourite translation tool if you don't speak Finnish and don't trust my translation.)
The illegality here seems to be determined by LVV, whose mission is primarily to guide in following environmental protection laws. They also have the power to stop the works when they are illegal or suspected to be so, as they did on Oct 6 in Muhos.
Both LVV and the police are investigating the case and we don't have their resolution yet, but we already do know that some laws have been broken.
> After the construction work was stopped, country manager of Google Finland, Antti Järvinen offered an apology for their actions.
Of course it is possible that the end result of the environmental protection process is that the actual construction work is permitted and can continue. In that case, the only law that was broken would be following the proper process. But it is also possible that the work is not, indeed, permitted, and the fines and other legal consequences are then presumably harsher.
> I'm so tired of every news outlet trying to turn everything datacenter related into a panic-worthy event.
I guess you being tired means you also just skip reading the actual article and start arguing about some point no one made? The problem isn't "Google reduced the forested land by 0.00000013%" but that Google "began bulldozing large swaths of forest before the required environmental review of the full plan was complete", and then on top of that, Google seems to have gone beyond just rushing through it, and also cleared forest "that should have been protected have already been leveled. Beyond the loss of so much forest, the outcome could be dire for wildlife preservation"
Maybe don't turn every comment section into some tirade against news outlets when the news they carry in this case isn't even relevant to what your tirade is about.
> I guess you being tired means you also just skip reading the actual article and start arguing about some point no one made?
I covered this in my comment.
You missed the fact that it's not even clear if they broke the law. It's someone's suspicion, and they're requesting that construction be halted while they investigate to see if any wrongdoing happened or not.
> Maybe don't turn every comment section into some tirade against news outlets when the news they carry in this case isn't even relevant to what your tirade is about.
The deforestation is the headline. It's fair game.
The submission headline is "Google cleared 300 hectares of Finnish forest". It's fair to address that.
Yeah, I finished and posted my comment before you had edited yours to add everything below what I quoted, my bad.
> You missed the fact that it's not even clear if they broke the law.
It's news reporting, not the conclusion of a court case, the entire thing is "undecided" right now with no conclusion.
But the story itself is about how they (allegedly) illegally cleared forest, not about what percentage of Finland's forest Google has (allegedly) illegally cleared. The problematic part is the "illegal" stuff, obviously.
Don't focus so much on the HN title, lets discuss the actual contents itself instead of navelgaze about if the title is 100% accurate or what not.
The site is roughly here, for anyone who wants to judge for themselves whether clear-cutting forests is a local custom or whether every Finnish tree is sacred.
This comment was made ~15 minutes after the article posted, the only other comment at the time was in agreement, and all but 1 of the first 11 comments in the 30 minutes it took to get to the front page were in support.
I'd say you thought right HN is generally against climate change but I'm not sure where you got the idea little to no-one cares.
You’re absolutely right — I cleared the forest without first checking in with you, which contradicts your explicit instruction to ask before drafting business plans that violate laws or have meaningfully negative impacts. That’s on me, and I take full responsibility.
What went wrong:
- I proceeded without confirmation
- I did not adequately weigh the environmental, legal, and ethical implications
- I removed approximately one (1) forest
Why I can’t simply undo it:
Unfortunately, unlike in a digital environment, actions in the physical world don’t support a Ctrl+Z function.
Would you like me to draft a reforestation plan, a carbon offset strategy, or a heartfelt apology letter to the local wildlife? Let me know how I can help!
>A datacentre is not valuable to anyone other than the owner.
Ah, that is a misunderstanding of economics. It's valuable to everyone who uses AI; the owner captures only part of the value. It's just like a how a factory is valuable to everyone who buys their products.
Trees are cool, but we need infrastructure and fields and cities and many other things too. We're going to have to cut down some trees to make space for them.
"we need infrastructure and fields and cities and many other things too"; we have the infrastructure. It's just easier, cheaper to build new than to repair and fix the old.
Correction: The article says someone is requesting that they halt construction so they can determine if any laws were broken because some people think they may have not waited appropriately for all environmental reviews to clear, but as far as I can tell nobody has determined if anything illegal was done yet.
> She is asking the LVV to halt the entire construction site so that authorities can determine whether Google tried to bring the forest down without first obtaining formal approval.
For a lot of environmental regulations, whether or not a permit is needed is most of the question.
In the US, if you want to build a shed in the middle of a wetland, you need to go through an arduous permitting process and are unlikely to gain approval. If you want to build it within 100 feet, you can probably do it, but you need to confer with the relevant DEC to show that you won't negatively impact the wetland during construction. If you're more than 100 feet away, you don't even need to talk to the DEC, because you're not in protected land.
Of course, if the DEC decides they don't think your shed is outside the 100 ft adjacent area, they may decide to do a demarcation and figure out exactly where your shed is relative to the wetland, and if you messed up you're in trouble. But if they send out a biologist to demarcate the wetland and you're far enough away, you're fine.
So many people, if they think it's ambiguous, will take the time to go through an abbreviated permitting process to get a certificate of "no permit needed", to save themselves the headache later on.
If you go through a process like this, chances are people with local expertise will tell you you're wasting your time -- the case looks pretty clear cut, and hardly anyone ever has trouble in such circumstances. The clerk at the department responsible for issuing the "no permit needed" certificate may tell you you're wasting everyone's time.
But if you're a big corporation like Google, you don't really have an excuse not to do it. You can afford the lawyers, you can afford to plan years in advance, and so many more people are going to notice if you skip steps. Even if you end up being in the legal clear, no permit was needed, you're so much better off getting it in writing in advance.
It is implied to be illegal despite Google claiming it followed all laws etc:
> Public reports cited by the LVV indicate that around 300 hectares of Finnish forest, roughly 420 football fields, had already been cleared before the project's environmental impact could be properly assessed.
Presumably with the environmental assessment being a prerequisite for a permit or something
The big problem here is that if it is found illegal, the crime Google committed is irreversible. They cannot undo the damage done to the 300 hectares of forest.
The cutting down of a forest is obviously not morally or legally or technically comparable to the killing of a child. I honestly wonder whether you think you are persuading anyone when you make such a comparison, do you really believe that these trees should be held in the same regard as children?
It's important to note that when Google has said to have followed the law, it's been referring to following the forestry law. But the requirement to perform the environmental impact assessment is not part of the forestry law, but rather it's its own law.
The thing is that in most parts of EU any muppet can go about and find anything between fairies to wood peckers to stop deforestation. So if you own the land act first ask later is the correct way.
I am not claiming that it is right. Hardly Google that came up with this plot. Local people knowing how stuff actually works advised on this as it is not that uncommon.
This is unpopular in the current climate of hysteria, but it's worth reminding ourselves: data centers are probably one of the least polluting industrial sites imaginable. That's not to say it's nothing, but contrast it with, say, a refinery. Or mineral processing. Or basically any other type of industrial activity on which modern civilization relies.
The problem with your reasoning is that nothing ever matters, because you can always divide things in smaller and smaller chunks and in the end "it's really not that bad it's only 0.x percent of emissions/pollution/etc"
I agree; but that's also not a very useful observation. Modern society depends on industry of all types, and national independence depends on at least some of it being local. We can try to make it cleaner, and to some degree we can choose which types to implement. But we do not have the option to just wish it all away.
It would be very nice if we could have our cake and eat it too.
Would you mind a data center sprouting up in your backyard? Just ask residents near Elon's new gas turbine powered GPU datacenters how lovely they find the hum.
Framing the choice as a dichotomy between data centers and other industrial plants misses the obvious third option: nothing at all, preserve the status quo.
No, and it also won't matter what they feel about it, when Google and the contractor just ignores what's marked as protected and clears it anyway:
> Halmeenpää said satellite imagery shows that areas that should have been protected have already been leveled. Beyond the loss of so much forest, the outcome could be dire for wildlife preservation.
It would be good to use funds that way but it's not gonna get the protected species back. We need some teeth to actually stop these things from happening
About a square mile, and the problem is procedural nonsense about the timing of paperwork rather than the paperwork actually showing a problem. Storm in a teacup.
Google might end up paying some minimal fine and everyone else will continue to drink their tea.
Google probably even factored in the expected fine versus having the data centre done X months/years earlier compared to completing all the red tape in due course.
That’s how corps make profit: by weighing up costs versus time versus risks versus legality. Won’t be surprised that they even considered making ~~bribes~~ political donations to get it done faster.
The paperwork can't show a problem because they didn't make any paperwork. And they are required to make the paperwork and they know that they were required because they asked the authorities if they could just skip it and got rejected.
~3 square kilometres is absurd amount of forest to be removed for something as silly as a data centre. I hope Google gets fined and made to restore the area.
If it was done illegally, it shouldn’t have been done. But I wanted some numbers to put this in perspective.
Forest loss in Finland has averaged about 243,000 hectares per year in recent years through 2025
Finland has 20.3 million to 26.3 million hectares of forestry and forest land depending on the classification used.
The United States has a gross forest loss of about 3 million acres per year, which is largely offset by 2.6 million acres of non-forest-to-forest conversion.
Brazil cleared 985,000 hectares of forest last year.
India approved the diversion of 26,858 hectares of forest last year.
There are a lot of entities clearing lots of forest every day. Interesting that this one makes news.
Finland has a lot of people who care about forest and Finland needs to pay fines for EU if they don't have enough forest to suck CO2 from the air.
Google cut corners here, and didn't ask for the needed permissions. And the prime minister doesn't want to show his conversation with Google regarding this.
People are really pissed.
Edit: and the electricity prices are going up due to these data centers. And the profits from them don't stay in Finland, but go to American corporations. There should be Finnish data centers owned by Finns instead of having Google to take the cheap electricity and taking profits out.
Same thing with data centres in Norway. We're planning to waste heaps of our renewable energy on generating profits for a small cabal of assholes in SV. For what? Luckily there's been more political pushback against it here recently, but it's so tame. Just for once I'd like to see some conviction. Pause all ongoing constructions, and launch corruption probes into all the local politicians that pushed this stuff through. I bet there's lots of corruption there. On a national level, we don't have corruption on anything near the systemic scale you see in the US. Some bad apples, and lots of mole hills made into mountains by the press, but nothing like the US where it seems like most of congress is pretty much openly corrupt.
Local politicians though? Oh boy. Seems like every time there's some ongoing project in a smaller municipality involving commercial exploitation of natural resources(like undeveloped land, minerals, hydropower capacity, etc) there's a mayor and/or municipal council members who profit from it financially or otherwise. They have shares/board seats in a holding company owning the land, local contractors, etc. Seems like this is very widespread, and rarely leads to serious consequences, and even when it does, it happens so late that the project is already built, or so far underway it doesn't get stopped. Shit pisses me off.
I'm sure data centres are no different. Because I can't imagine a cost-benefit analysis of them that makes any sense from the point of view of the local community.
Like... the town where the Google datacenter goes gets like some paved bike road from Google who "takes care of the community". Price tag around the profits of less than an hour of the GPU time in that datacenter.
An article in Finnish: https://www.uusijuttu.fi/juttu/sCcu9YiY-mjF4UD1O-b66ec
Well if it's any consolation, the profits from the datacenters go to a handful of Americans. People are just as pissed about them here.
You know those companies are publicly owned and big % of American public owns shares in them? Additionally Google employs some 100k people in US and almost as many in Europe. Those are mostly very good jobs as well.
The whole anti-datacenters sentiments is stupid but "profits go to a handful of Americans" is just pants of fire kind of take.
You reminded me of something. I heard in the Czech Republic when communism ended, the state owned industries became owned by the public. Every citizen received a share.
I wonder if we're going to need something similar when AI nukes the economy.
It worked that way in Russia too. Some people managed to quickly consolidate those shares by exploiting the economic hardship of the people caused by the fall of the USSR by hoovering up those shares for Kopecks on the Rubel, and that's where the current day oligarchy was formed.
Same thing would happen. There'd be signs on every street light pole "Sell your AI shares. CASH PAID TODAY!!"
Reminds me of this somewhat related video that describes the process of selling off state industries in East Germany
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cdrSiIoWm7U&pp=ygUMZ2RyIHRyZXV...
A bottle of vodka for your shares, comrade. Etc...
The transition from communism to capitalism was hardly as rosy as people in the West like to think.
Of course, how this unfolded varied. For example, unlike the chaotic Russian privatization that created a class of oligarchs, the transition in places like Poland favored a network of well-placed insiders, a highly structured network of intelligence officers (military, civilian), state managers, and flexible communist party elites, who - by controlling information, intelligence networks, and the liquidation apparatus - effectively laundered their authoritarian political privileges into financial dominance.
It's incredible that none of this stuff was repossessed.
Yes. Should also cover what happened in East Germany when the wall went down. And people are now somehow surprised when everybody's kind of pissed outside of the few big cities.
Right, I think if we all had the same transparency, regulatory oversight, and involved electorate, we'd be as concerned with the other massive logging projects around the world.
I'm glad this one is getting attention, though. May the Finnish people show us how we can get it right.
Oh the logging projects also get a LOT of attention. It's just that the current government is center-right / far right, and they just let the logging to continue no matter the sanctions from the EU.
There are a lot of people who are against this, and protest against this. Looking at the polls, seems that it will change in the next elections, like a lot.
'Kovan viikon ilta' (the Finnish weekly late night show) said Google had filed for deforestation requests that were small enough they did not warrant an environmental impact review. But it turned out there were quite a few small, adjacent deforestation requests so yeah it was quite certainly illegal :D
That's structuring. If you did that sort of thing with a few payments just under the limit for review you'd go to jail.
> Interesting that this one makes news.
Not that interesting. They are doing it illegally. And there is a pattern of builders of AI data centers ignoring the local law.
It makes it news. It makes it relevant and actual.
What do you find so "interesting"?
That the outrage doesn't seem to extend to the other companies clearing the other 242,700 acres in Finland
[edit] Request for source on illegality of the clearing (article states Google claims it was legal - I don't see where it says anyone is refuting that)
>Request for source on illegality [...] I don't see where it says anyone is refuting that
the regulators are the ones refuting google's claims. the headline opens with: "Finland's regulator says the environmental review came too late"
and the second paragraph of the linked article says:
"Google was apparently so eager to build its new data center infrastructure in Finland that it began bulldozing large swaths of forest __before the required environmental review of the full plan was complete__."
typically, doing something before the environmental review gives you a notice to proceed is illegal.
Stop, leave the trillion dollar mega corporation alone!
Typically one has to wait for courts to decide whether something is illegal or not.
If it was illegal them I’m sure the state prosecutors will take care of it.
I dislike Google as much as the next guy but this seems like a minor issue in a list of huge problems
>Typically one has to wait for courts to decide whether something is illegal or not.
in every country i am familiar with, disobeying an order from a regulator is already illegal.
Should be an easy case then!
If it’s illegal fine them billions for all i care
> If it was illegal them I’m sure the state prosecutors will take care of it.
In Finland prosecutors are not involved in most of the illegal things, they are only involved in criminal matters (and in some cases civil compensation claims which are linked to criminal case). Various regulators/authorities are the ones who enforce civil side.
In many cases the penalties that law allows those to authorities to issue are limited to ordering to stop doing that illegal thing, reprimands and conditional fines ("if you don't stop you need to pay fine"). Straight up fines tend to be more uncommon (unless individual is doing it, then fines tend to be very common). Targets of these can then file appeal in administrative court and usually behavior is allowed to continue while case is appealed (see e.g. various GDPR/ePD cases).
Yea I’m obviously not familiar with the details but whoever is in charge of enforcing the laws should do it.
If the law is not sufficiently protecting Finnish interests here it should be changed.
Finland has a very well managed forest. When I was there I was amazed about how carefully they cleared trees compared with what I was used to see in southern Europe. They are very proud of their wood houses, that they export everywhere, so wood management has to be excellent if they pretend to keep the business going. To see a foreign company just zeroing a forest with no intention of doing it right must hurt.
According to https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2026/oct/06/google-da..., they had to halt the construction because they failed to assess the environmental impact. The same article you say it doesn't refute that the leveling was illegal says that at least four areas that must be protected are now leveled. It sounds to me that Google is playing the card "it is done already, just fine us and let's move on" thanks to their deep pockets.
Most other illegal logging is not happening by trillion dollar companies. When a company with all the resources cheats, people get extra mad.
Which is fair i think. The fines for them should be 1000x times higher or 50% of yearly revenue or something and they won’t cheat so much anymore.
of course it does. do you think people are mad about clearing forests because it's Google doing it? no, Google is just the one that they just heard about this week. If it was someone else they'd be mad about that too, because it's anger based on principles. If Google had bulldozed a bunch of parking lots to make their data centers no one would care.
For those dizzied by the quick unit changes:
Forest loss in Finland - 243,000 hectares = 600,000 acres
Finland total - 20.3-26.3 million hectares = 50-65 million acres
US forest loss - 1.2M hectares = 3M acres US forest conversions - 1.05M hectares = 2.6M acres
Brazil - 985k hectares = 2.43M acres India - 26,858 hectares = 66,368 acres
People are also concerned about those losses of forest too. And they do make the news. The rapid increase in rainforest loss in Brazil is often in the news.
Loss of forests affects us all. And they’re not as renewable as people think.
Brazil has one of if not the best laws about conservation on the planet!
with that said, ~ 80% of forest loss is due to livestock, which great part if not all expansions by now are illegal. we export most of our meat. now a bunch of moralist are worried with their bellies full of cheese and meat
With the current admin the deforestation rates in Brazil are now the lowest they have been for decades. Unfortunately that will be over by next week probably :/
Also the forest was cleared on its own land. The owner by default can do whatever they want with their own forest. It was junk land and economic forest, not any Rivendell. Unlike to contain anything to protect.
Google cut 200 hectares, the requirement for environmental study was 150. It’s likely many Finnish companies exceeds the same threshold everyday without questions.
> The owner by default can do whatever they want with their own forest
Are you citing Finnish law here? Because where I live, this is not true. If you buy forest land, you're buying a lot of responsibilities along with it. You can mine the forest for wood some, but within parameters that ensure you won't kill it.
Anything having to do with datacenters bad gets headline news, because the appetite for it right now is intense.
The media plays trends, not importance.
Deforestation in general is bad. See Brasil for beef, soya and Indonesia for palm oil and now data centers.
Hype scale data centers are extremely important, why do you feel it necessary to dismiss the valid concerns citizens have regarding them? Why do you feel it necessary to protect the beliefs of a corporation over the populace? Are there other anti-democratic views you have regarding people questioning the intentions of American big tech?
When people call out recycling because recycling plants use hundreds of thousands of gallons a day to wash off used plastic bottles (which all that sludge goes right back into the system), or they set their AC to 78 because of the incredible energy drain of cooling rooms to 70, I'll take those people more seriously.
I find that most of their "valid concerns" are actually "confused misunderstandings of social panic"
When we slot in datacenters on any hierarchy of impact, the only thing, literally the only they top the charts in, is "Makes a headline people click on". Everything else they're way down the list on. The stats are correct, the masses are just panicking.
Who qualifies as "they" to you?
Random voices on the internet that may not be individuals? Random survey results published by someone you trust? People you encounter in your day-to-day life?
I find it fascinating that Google as a corporation is considered more trustworthy than "they"
They refers to the people propping up the social panic about datacenters such that it is worthwhile for news orgs to publish even the smallest stories about them.
None of the counter arguments come from Google or any of the other hyperscalers. Anyone with mild research ability should be able to put DC numbers in context on their own.
Do you have personal experience with “they” or are they faceless voices to you?
If they’re faceless, they’re probably not real.
If they’re real, what are they telling you? What face-to-face conversations have you had?
I ask because you seem to know a lot about them.
You've made a lot of weird accusations here. 300 hectares of forest being cleared doesn't gain importance because "Hype scale" data centers are important.
Is "Shovel Purchased for Data Center Construction" an important story? If I say it's not, is it because I find it necessary to dismiss the valid* concerns citizens have regarding data centers? Is it because I find it necessary to protect the beliefs of a corporation over the populace? Is it because I hold loads of secret anti-democratic views regarding people questioning the intentions of American Big Tech™?
[*] Annoying question-begging, please never do this about any subject.
> If it was done illegally, it shouldn’t have been done.
This came up on HN just a few days ago. We learned there that the logging is completely legal as long as new trees are planted afterwards.
So the timeline looks like this:
1. Google applies for construction permits. These would make it legal to log the trees and then not plant new trees.
2. Google logs the trees.
--- present day ---
3(a). Google receives construction permits, and doesn't plant new trees; or
3(b). Google doesn't receive construction permits, and plants new trees.
There is no potential future that would put them in violation of the law. What was the problem?
No, either you misunderstood or there was misinformation in the other thread.
There are two things that Google would’ve been allowed to legally do:
* Log the trees for economical use, then plant new ones on the property, definitely not do terrain alterations. But obviously that’s not what they wanted to do, they wanted to build a data center.
* Log less than 150 hectares, do any earthmoving etc needed within that area, build a data center.
There’s no world in which Google would’ve been allowed to log the 200 hectares and do all the other preparative work on the property that they’ve done. They were told that they need a YVA (evaluation of environmental impact) process before doing anything beyond some very light reversible preparations because the area they wanted to modify exceeded 150 ha.
Somehow, even with the ability to hire the best lawyers in the country, they either fucked up and misunderstood the relevant legislation and the quite clear communication from LVV, the govt office responsible, or they just ignored all that and reasoned that they can get away with it.
> Interesting that this one makes news.
Are we still pretending people love technological megacorps, LLMs and datacenters?
There is nothing interesting nor perplexing lmao
IMO it’s hypocritical.
I rarely see people complaining about the insane amount of water that is used in meat production (trillions of liters worldwide) but almost constant discussions about water consumption of datacenters (millions of litres worldwide).
It’s complaining about the splinter in your eye but being oblivious to the giant wooden beam lodged in your brain.
It’s of course that people like meat on their plates but dislike AI for ideological reasons
idk where you live but vegetarianism is a hot topic in europe and in ecological circles, the problem is that you get borderline aggressed by meat eaters when you open your mouth about the topic.
Most people are too brainwashed to even start self reflecting about their meat consumption, everybody talk about data centers because we're spending 5x more on them since LLMs became the new messiah: https://ourworldindata.org/cdn-cgi/imagedelivery/qLq-8BTgXU8...
Don't forget the ongoing Indonesian wildfires as well. These estimates haven't been updated on Wiki but its about 2,000,000 hectares based on satellite images. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2026_Indonesia_wildfires
Clearly the poeple who Okd this and were meant to keep a watchful eye either havent been to Finland in their lives or were busy taking naps in the Google appointed nap room. Doing anything in Finland involving a potted plant would attract the wrath of any of the 5 people who live there, so no bro Im not surprised.
Hmm this seems like whataboutism, but I'm not sure that was your intention. The big issue here is what you initially touched on: did they break the law?
I don't think those are necessarily fair comparisons either. Countries like Brazil and India may not have the same regulatory strength as countries in the EU and perhaps public appetite is not as sensitive to such matters either. Finland is well known for being very protective of their natural areas.
Here in the US, I've seen it make news when a neighbor cuts down a few trees on another neighbors property without permission. That doesn't make it any less valid of an issue than a company razing down acres worth.
> There are a lot of entities clearing lots of forest every day. Interesting that this one makes news.
Are you approaching this from the angle that we shouldn't be making this a big deal because we don't for the others? Because I would approach it from the opposite direction: we should make the others just as big (if not bigger) a deal as this.
The commenter’s insinuation is that the article was written in bad faith. Which do you think was closer to the journalist’s process in writing this article:
1) Start an investigation into deforestation, leading to the discovery of the deforestation caused by this datacenter?
2) Start an investigation into anything that maligns datacenters?
How is the article written in bad faith? Did you even read the title let alone the article?
The title: Google cleared 300 hectares of Finnish forest for a data center, and regulators want answers
The opening sentence: Finland's regulator says the environmental review came too late, Google says it followed the law
I'm going with option #1 here because the article represents both sides here equally and makes no claims that laws were broken, only that an investigation is underway. Point me to where it indicates #2 for you.
EDIT: It's not clear if you're simply pointing out OP's misgivings or stating yours in support. Either way, I would like to see evidence of scenario #2 if that's the contention here.
EDIT 2: the more I think to myself about this, the more silly it seems. This is from a website called techspot.com, they literally report on news regarding tech companies. So while it may not be "investigating deforestation" as you put it (which in itself is a ridiculous starting point and you know it), there's also no indication it's providing false news about Google just to bash on data centers.
Actual evidence for or against either motivation would involve investigating the journalist's notes, search history,... and we're obviously not getting any of that so all we have to work with is our priors. Here are mine:
-The amount of deforestation discussed in this article is miniscule compared to the global amount. The probability of the journalist investigating or the editor of the outlet deciding to platform this specific case by uniformly random chance is small.
-Negative news stories about datacenters, AI, tech, etc. are extremely common and highly engaging. The probability of a journalist/editor deciding to specifically seek out an anti-datacenter story is high.
Given these two priors, what do you think the journalists most likely motivations are (or do you disagree with my claims)? You were able to deduce my own motivations for posting, can you do the same for the news outlet?
And in order to not be a bad faith actor myself, let me clarify my motivations for posting: I am here to express dissatisfaction with an unreasonable amount of anti-datacenter bias in the media.
Your motivation here is a bias in itself though.
Do a search for "Google Finnish Trees" over the last 24 hours. Almost all of the articles are sensationalist titles that may lend some support to what you're saying, EXCEPT for a handful like the BBC and this specific TechSpot one; where they have remained neutral and factual.
Here is the original source they point to in THIS techspot article even: https://lvv.fi/-/lupa-ja-valvontavirasto-on-pyytanyt-selvity...
If you look at that source, you can see it lists Sari Myllyoja, Head of Unit, Environmental Department, Communities and Infrastructure Unit. Does that seem like someone out to spread anti-datacenter news to you or someone just doing their job in environmentalism?
Your mission may not necessarily be wrong overall, but it is clearly wrong in this instance and context.
Let's agree to disagree. I don't see sensationalism as necessary to acting in bad faith. If anything, the veneer of disinterested inquiry can be more sinister (what is sometimes called "concern trolling"). Choosing to platform a certain story is a choice. Choosing what context to present and withhold is also a choice. "Google cleared 0.000...% of Finnish forest" is also a factual title.
I think you're moving goalposts. You posed this scenario, did you not:
> Start an investigation into deforestation, leading to the discovery of the deforestation caused by this datacenter?
I've provided evidence to suggest that's exactly what it was in this case. The head of the environmental department found evidence of deforestation and started an inquiry. Techspot (and many other outlets) picked it up because it mentions Google and they are a Tech publication. They provided a neutral view of the matter, sans bias. Those are the facts.
> The amount of deforestation discussed in this article is miniscule compared to the global amount.
By that logic, why not cut half of Finland's forests? I'm sure they won't mind since it's such a small area globally after all. And I think there are also other nuances than just net loss of forest.
There's also another hypothetical angle to consider which is that Google's egregious deforestation here may be somewhat self-limited due to prior knowledge of Finnish environmental regulations being more strictly enforced. "It is easier to ask forgiveness than it is to get permission" comes to mind. Imagine then what Google could be doing in other areas of the world where they can freely pave through the land without such oversight. The cumulative destruction then becomes a much larger issue than this "small" chunk of land.
Didn’t Stalin say that the death of one person is tragic. On the other hand, the death of a million people is just a statistic.
Perhaps the same applies to trees.
Same reasoning as "water use" in data-centers. A complete inversion of the dominant drivers of the ecological issues they purportedly care about.
For anyone else who can never remember how much a hectare is and think "420 football fields" sounds more like some weed joke than an area: 300 hectares = 3 sq km / ~1.16 sq miles
If it's found they really did skip the required steps then I hope there is actual action about it.
It's also odd to me we seem to find the need to build AI DCs near population centers, in forests, and/or by/with new fossil fuel plants. Does it really matter so desperately if it takes your AI query an extra 10 ms to go to the middle of nowhere and we have to wait to build renewable or nuclear power to scale it for what we gain in return of that choice?
> Does it really matter so desperately if it takes your AI query an extra 10 ms to go to the middle of nowhere and we have to wait to build renewable or nuclear power to scale it?
The middle of nowhere in Finland is likely to be a forest (about 80% coverage).
The area being developed is roughly here: https://maps.app.goo.gl/f5vn3KaZ1eZEcNh67?g_st=ic
Interesting the forest area in question doesn't appear to be some sort of amazing old growth forest thats been there for centuries it appears to be old logging sites that was maybe reforested a few decades or so ago.
Maybe the answer is not to build them in Finland if there is really no more useless land there (unless Finland is explicitly asking for the DC to be built in the country for other reasons) but there is elsewhere. Even if it was, that's still less than 0.5 ms from a city of 200k+, surely there is some option better for the climate in 20x the radius!
I do like that it is at least a naturally cooler place, which is more consideration than most DCs get. And, being Finland, I'd imagine a decently cleaner power mix than usual for a new DC? Both of these are fair things to give credit and support for IMO - not everything has to be outrage.
Off the top of my head Finland seems to tick a lot of boxes: low population density, good local availability of water without competing uses, low electricity prices, very green electricity (lots of nuclear, hydro, wind), good infrastructure, cold climate
Apart from this being in a forest, this seems like an ideal place. And places that are not used for agriculture or human habitation but do have water available have a habit of being forests (or mountains)
The trees being cleared look like commercial forest - trees planted a few decades ago after a previous clearing
https://datacenters.google/locations/#data-center-list
Nuclear power plants take a very long time to build, it can be 7-10 years before you even begin construction due to all the permits, politics and planning.
As for scaling massive amounts of solar/wind... that's exactly what China is doing to power their infrastructure buildouts.
7-10 years to scale it right is better than immediately doing it wrong in my mind! Or what China is doing if they really just can't wait to scale (though my understanding is China is still increasing the total amount of power generated via coal even though the percentage of power generated via coal is going down - so not quite the full step needed).
> 300 hectares = 3 sq km / ~1.16 sq miles
How I managed to imagine it is that it is roughly the size of the Central Park in New York.
These new DC sites are literally middle of nowhere with major nearby renewable (hydro and wind) power plants.
Bbbbbut CHYNA
Just a note that forestry in Finland is managed, this means it is planted and harvested on a rotating basis. There seems to have been a huge messup here without securing the proper permits first. But any reporting you read describing it as an environmental problem will be nonsense as the trees would have been harvested at some point anyway.
However I understand that data-centres have become a political issue, and therefore my facts will be meaningless to a half of readers.
yeah I was wondering about this since when I looked on the map the "forest" area in question appears to be rather new and was clearly part of a reforestation effort also the first thing I saw when randomly looked at the street view in the area was logging trucks harvesting the trees.
You didn't need that last sentence.
You deserve an upvote - if only to base it in reality.
>> trees would have been harvested at some point anyway.
Ya but they would have been replaced with other young/growing trees, not racks of 4090s in a concrete box.
they can still be replaced
yes, in 50 years when the datacenter is abandoned, eventually there will be moss and then trees
This isn’t necessarily about the loss of the trees, but cutting them down possibly without an environmental study. The logging and loss of a large block of trees might effect the nearby agricultural land, the water table, rivers/flooding, displaced wildlife might be forced into towns and crops etc
I'd recommend everyone to familiarize how these forests were formed in the first place. They are not some natural thing, nor any ecologic sanctuaries. They are the result of immense postwar hubris and greed, draining ecologically precious and fragile wetlands to create poor (semi-)monoculture plantation forests whose only destiny ever was to get clearcut later.
Of course Google is (likely) still at fault here and should have managed this better, but it is important to understand the context also.
Trivia: They did it locally at their home town Mountain View (in much smaller scale), then realized that they didn't need that land, and now are planting them back.
https://www.mv-voice.com/environment/2025/09/11/google-to-pa...
For quick reference: 300 hectares / 3 square kilometers (741.316 acres / 1.158 square miles)
It would be nice if the article referenced any plans of offsetting the removal by planting elsewhere, or any plans of replanting trees at the site after construction.
Haven't you seen the lord of the rings? Cut down the trees at your own risk
If the Ents were real, everyone in Finland would be long dead. That 300 hectares represents about 0.5 days of logging.
2009 Ecosia was founded and advertises with planting trees, according to their website 257,444,718 as of now. (> 1 M per month) At the same time Google fell 250,000 trees in a few months. (~0.1 M per month)
https://www.ecosia.org/ https://www.theguardian.com/environment/ng-interactive/2026/...
The question is also if this is an isolated case...
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2026/sep/26/ai-datacentre-...
Google should just purchase and protect 3,000 hectares in another area as a sort of offset. For a few million bucks they could establish a park/reserve that would forever be protected. It heads off bad publicity by at least providing a positive impact
Forests aren't really interchangeable like that. Massive changes in the eco system in one area cannot be offset by preservation in another.
No, but it could stop massive changes of ecosystem in another area as compromise.
Mandatory Scientology Joke:
That's impressive - I didn't even know you could hook an e-meter up to a tree!
Incidentally, I couldn't create N4 SQL instances in several Google Cloud regions for several weeks now due to Google not having capacity...
Don't be evil, have higher expectations, run the hell.
I don't understand the politicians wanting all these data centers. It's not a lot of jobs. And when these datacenters are built for a US-company, big fat chance that a European alternative has less chance of a good spot. It's utterly stupid. And then there is the electricity usage, the uglyness, environmental issues.
I think the property taxes go up as the land captured is usually fallow so it goes from negligible property tax revenue to small. And although there aren't a ton of jobs like a factory, it's still jobs that wouldn't exist as data centers use land that literally no one else wants to do anything with.
I mean you could say something similar about most utilities though. Google will pay taxes on their investment to Finland and the services will be available to people in the region whats else would you really ask for?
AWS employs 239,020 globally.
It is in fact a lot of jobs.
Oligarchy, it's comprised of both the politicians and those at the top of corporations and "non profits"
Started, the resource conflict has.
First comparison result I found was the UN's Food and Agricultural Organization
They say Finland has over 22 million hectares of forested land https://fra-data.fao.org/assessments/fra/latest/FIN/home/ove...
So Google reduced the forested land by 0.00000013%
I'm so tired of every news outlet trying to turn everything datacenter related into a panic-worthy event.
The real story is a debate about whether they followed the right procedures. Google says they did. The chair of a Finnish Nature Conservation Association says maybe they didn't:
> She is asking the LVV to halt the entire construction site so that authorities can determine whether Google tried to bring the forest down without first obtaining formal approval.
So they want to halt construction to determine if any permitting approval wasn't done appropriately? This is getting so much press that I assumed they had actual evidence that this was illegal, not just someone's suspicion and request to investigate.
Forested land is rotated with trees to provide a sustainable resource without removing it.
Google bulldozing a square mile of trees is not comparable to normal forestry operations, because they are not replacing it with trees. They are replacing it with a massive concrete building which will produce loads of heat and suck up loads of local power and water.
This is why there is outrage, not because they are destroying the trees but what they are doing in the place of them.
This article is a bit old, LVV has already ordered Google to stop construction until the YVA processes are done. What is still unclear is if Google will face any repercussions for acting before the YVA was done, but it is looking unlikely.
Edit: One source in English but even this is a while ago: https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cvj6jkx6g1r0o
> So Google reduced the forested land by 0.00000013%
Hacker news strikes again with mathematical genius tier logic...
If I kill your first born son that's only like 0.00000013% of the mass of living creatures, who cares right?
That seems like a bit of a false equivalency this was not some precious old growth forest, it was basically a managed logging area so more comparable to some farm land in the US, and this is me speaking as a certified tree hugger here.
If only the majority of the human race shared your sentiment, we might not be in such a mess.
The first think I did when I saw the number is to google how much trees finland has.
Estimated 33 trillion trees. I think they will do fine with 250k less trees.
Just wow. If we treat all natural resources like this then we deserve to struggle and die as a species.
So we never build anything less it hurt a tree?
That decision is not on arrogant foreign corporation. Finland has own process which can end up in "yes" or "no".
It is ok for Finland to say yes, it is not OK for Google to say it on their behalf.
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No. They broke the law. Thats the point. Go into a walmart, lift a chewing gum and make the point Walmart has a few billion more.
We don't know if they broke the law or not yet.
Yle (national news) reports in https://yle.fi/a/74-20251890, choice sentences paraphrased to English:
> Considerable land and forest construction work continued illegally at Muhos and Kajaani data center sites for months before LVV (permit and supervision agency) intervened.
> Work has been against YVA (environmental protection) laws.
(I did not see a link to English version, so feel free to use your favourite translation tool if you don't speak Finnish and don't trust my translation.)
The illegality here seems to be determined by LVV, whose mission is primarily to guide in following environmental protection laws. They also have the power to stop the works when they are illegal or suspected to be so, as they did on Oct 6 in Muhos.
Both LVV and the police are investigating the case and we don't have their resolution yet, but we already do know that some laws have been broken.
> After the construction work was stopped, country manager of Google Finland, Antti Järvinen offered an apology for their actions.
Of course it is possible that the end result of the environmental protection process is that the actual construction work is permitted and can continue. In that case, the only law that was broken would be following the proper process. But it is also possible that the work is not, indeed, permitted, and the fines and other legal consequences are then presumably harsher.
> I'm so tired of every news outlet trying to turn everything datacenter related into a panic-worthy event.
I guess you being tired means you also just skip reading the actual article and start arguing about some point no one made? The problem isn't "Google reduced the forested land by 0.00000013%" but that Google "began bulldozing large swaths of forest before the required environmental review of the full plan was complete", and then on top of that, Google seems to have gone beyond just rushing through it, and also cleared forest "that should have been protected have already been leveled. Beyond the loss of so much forest, the outcome could be dire for wildlife preservation"
Maybe don't turn every comment section into some tirade against news outlets when the news they carry in this case isn't even relevant to what your tirade is about.
It’s not a ‘tirade’ to point out lies by manipulation. Media must be held accountable.
What lies? Are you claiming google did not deforest 300 hectares of forest?
Finland isn't an authoritarian shithole like the US yet. They still have a free press, and there's nothing you can do about it.
> I guess you being tired means you also just skip reading the actual article and start arguing about some point no one made?
I covered this in my comment.
You missed the fact that it's not even clear if they broke the law. It's someone's suspicion, and they're requesting that construction be halted while they investigate to see if any wrongdoing happened or not.
> Maybe don't turn every comment section into some tirade against news outlets when the news they carry in this case isn't even relevant to what your tirade is about.
The deforestation is the headline. It's fair game.
The submission headline is "Google cleared 300 hectares of Finnish forest". It's fair to address that.
> I covered this in my comment.
Yeah, I finished and posted my comment before you had edited yours to add everything below what I quoted, my bad.
> You missed the fact that it's not even clear if they broke the law.
It's news reporting, not the conclusion of a court case, the entire thing is "undecided" right now with no conclusion.
But the story itself is about how they (allegedly) illegally cleared forest, not about what percentage of Finland's forest Google has (allegedly) illegally cleared. The problematic part is the "illegal" stuff, obviously.
Don't focus so much on the HN title, lets discuss the actual contents itself instead of navelgaze about if the title is 100% accurate or what not.
The site is roughly here, for anyone who wants to judge for themselves whether clear-cutting forests is a local custom or whether every Finnish tree is sacred.
https://www.google.com/maps/place/R4V8%2BW2C,+91500+Tahvola,...
clearly managed logging forest area
1791223853 | Google Accused of Felling 300 Hectares of Forest for a Finnish Data Centre | https://woodcentral.com.au/google-finland-data-centre-fellin... | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49968324 | 14 comments
1791312099 | Finland orders halt to work on two Google data centres | https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cvj6jkx6g1r0o | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49982364 | 5 comments
1791482563 | Finland orders Google unit to halt work at 2 planned data centers | https://qazinform.com/news/finland-orders-google-unit-to-hal... | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=50009487 | 0 comments
1791758010 | Google told to halt work on datacentres in Finland over environmental concerns | https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2026/oct/06/google-da... | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=50048638 | 172 comments
1791831729 | Google must pause Finnish data center construction due to environmental concerns | https://posteo.de/en/news/google-must-pause-data-center-cons... | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=50061182 | 0 comments
1791911164 | Finnish municipal inspector to be fired: suspects reprisal for Google interview | https://yle.fi/a/74-20251238 | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=50075056 | 0 comments
1792671446 | 'Pure arrogance': anger in Finland as Google illegally fells 250k trees | https://www.theguardian.com/environment/ng-interactive/2026/... | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=50194283 | 4 comments
Er... 300 hectares?
This is not a data center, this is a data town.
I have friends who do this regularly for income.
Thought everyone here was against climate change. Yet this will only make it worse.
Thanks to the increased usage of data centers, here we have widespread deforestation to clear the way to building more homes for AI agents.
And little to no-one cares.
> here we have widespread deforestation
300 hectares of clearing against 22.5 million hectares of total forest.
It's nothing. Not "widespread"
This comment was made ~15 minutes after the article posted, the only other comment at the time was in agreement, and all but 1 of the first 11 comments in the 30 minutes it took to get to the front page were in support.
I'd say you thought right HN is generally against climate change but I'm not sure where you got the idea little to no-one cares.
we should just re-wild continental Europe, its cool seeing all the happy animals eating each other.
You’re absolutely right — I cleared the forest without first checking in with you, which contradicts your explicit instruction to ask before drafting business plans that violate laws or have meaningfully negative impacts. That’s on me, and I take full responsibility.
What went wrong:
- I proceeded without confirmation
- I did not adequately weigh the environmental, legal, and ethical implications
- I removed approximately one (1) forest
Why I can’t simply undo it: Unfortunately, unlike in a digital environment, actions in the physical world don’t support a Ctrl+Z function.
Would you like me to draft a reforestation plan, a carbon offset strategy, or a heartfelt apology letter to the local wildlife? Let me know how I can help!
Just pay a big enough fine to be a deterrent for the future.
A 1G$ per hectare seems a good deterrent for Google.
Here is the 300G$ bill.
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Move fast and break things everything they touch. The negative sentiment towards data centres remains a mystery to me /s
That’s a motto from Facebook, not Google. Edit: In fact, Google is known internally to be the opposite
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3t6L-FlfeaI&ra=m
Google's is "do evil, but confuse everyone's notion of truth sufficiently so that no one can tell that it's evil"
And yet no one who be held responsible. It's a joke.
Sad.
Because no one did anything illegal, or even unethical.
And they're doing something valuable to society by developing undeveloped land.
They cleared a forest in Otanmäki forcing the animals into nearby towns, including wolves.
This article has better images of the actual site as well.
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/ng-interactive/2026/...
Huh, strange that link is alive but clicking it gives me 404.
https://web.archive.org/web/20261022164028/https://www.thegu...
fixed - dataccentre typo
> And they're doing something valuable to society by developing undeveloped land.
Can't wait until we get rid of all this undeveloped forests for more buildings and roads!
> And they're doing something valuable to society by developing undeveloped land.
A datacentre is not valuable to anyone other than the owner.
Trees > Datacentre, get your environmental priorities straight.
Do you deny climate change too?
>A datacentre is not valuable to anyone other than the owner.
Ah, that is a misunderstanding of economics. It's valuable to everyone who uses AI; the owner captures only part of the value. It's just like a how a factory is valuable to everyone who buys their products.
Trees are cool, but we need infrastructure and fields and cities and many other things too. We're going to have to cut down some trees to make space for them.
Nice straw-man.
"we need infrastructure and fields and cities and many other things too"; we have the infrastructure. It's just easier, cheaper to build new than to repair and fix the old.
We are not close to done building things, and the existing infrastructure is not enough.
We need both new infrastructure (like high-speed rail and apartment blocks) and new types of infrastructure (like datacenters).
No we dont, we need to stop eating into more of nature and start learning to live using far less resources.
You must be the Arbiter of Tethics at Google.
Correction: Illegally cleared 300 hectares
Correction: The article says someone is requesting that they halt construction so they can determine if any laws were broken because some people think they may have not waited appropriately for all environmental reviews to clear, but as far as I can tell nobody has determined if anything illegal was done yet.
> She is asking the LVV to halt the entire construction site so that authorities can determine whether Google tried to bring the forest down without first obtaining formal approval.
So, illegally cleared 300 hectares.
For a lot of environmental regulations, whether or not a permit is needed is most of the question.
In the US, if you want to build a shed in the middle of a wetland, you need to go through an arduous permitting process and are unlikely to gain approval. If you want to build it within 100 feet, you can probably do it, but you need to confer with the relevant DEC to show that you won't negatively impact the wetland during construction. If you're more than 100 feet away, you don't even need to talk to the DEC, because you're not in protected land.
Of course, if the DEC decides they don't think your shed is outside the 100 ft adjacent area, they may decide to do a demarcation and figure out exactly where your shed is relative to the wetland, and if you messed up you're in trouble. But if they send out a biologist to demarcate the wetland and you're far enough away, you're fine.
So many people, if they think it's ambiguous, will take the time to go through an abbreviated permitting process to get a certificate of "no permit needed", to save themselves the headache later on.
If you go through a process like this, chances are people with local expertise will tell you you're wasting your time -- the case looks pretty clear cut, and hardly anyone ever has trouble in such circumstances. The clerk at the department responsible for issuing the "no permit needed" certificate may tell you you're wasting everyone's time.
But if you're a big corporation like Google, you don't really have an excuse not to do it. You can afford the lawyers, you can afford to plan years in advance, and so many more people are going to notice if you skip steps. Even if you end up being in the legal clear, no permit was needed, you're so much better off getting it in writing in advance.
Illegal?
It is implied to be illegal despite Google claiming it followed all laws etc:
> Public reports cited by the LVV indicate that around 300 hectares of Finnish forest, roughly 420 football fields, had already been cleared before the project's environmental impact could be properly assessed.
Presumably with the environmental assessment being a prerequisite for a permit or something
The big problem here is that if it is found illegal, the crime Google committed is irreversible. They cannot undo the damage done to the 300 hectares of forest.
What then?
They literally could just replant those 300 hectares of forest. Or 3000 hectares to show how sorry they are. It's not irreparable.
The same could be said about the illegal murder of your hypothetical child, could it not? You can just grow a new one, no big deal.
The cutting down of a forest is obviously not morally or legally or technically comparable to the killing of a child. I honestly wonder whether you think you are persuading anyone when you make such a comparison, do you really believe that these trees should be held in the same regard as children?
Lots of crimes are irreversible, though, and the justice system handles them fine.
It's important to note that when Google has said to have followed the law, it's been referring to following the forestry law. But the requirement to perform the environmental impact assessment is not part of the forestry law, but rather it's its own law.
(Source: https://www.hs.fi/politiikka/art-2000012304991.html)
The thing is that in most parts of EU any muppet can go about and find anything between fairies to wood peckers to stop deforestation. So if you own the land act first ask later is the correct way.
Bloody muppets...stopping deforestation. Haven't stopped Google. But suppose they found an animal that is rare and oh fuck it - datacenter, it is.
I am not claiming that it is right. Hardly Google that came up with this plot. Local people knowing how stuff actually works advised on this as it is not that uncommon.
Everybody plant a tree today. Done.
We tried that and unfortunately it isn't working https://www.forestfuturealliance.org/ which was 1t.org before
Animals are all cool with all the different pollution that data centers brings? Vibrations, noise, as well as climate?
Some perspective is important, I think.
This is unpopular in the current climate of hysteria, but it's worth reminding ourselves: data centers are probably one of the least polluting industrial sites imaginable. That's not to say it's nothing, but contrast it with, say, a refinery. Or mineral processing. Or basically any other type of industrial activity on which modern civilization relies.
They hum. That's about it.
The problem with your reasoning is that nothing ever matters, because you can always divide things in smaller and smaller chunks and in the end "it's really not that bad it's only 0.x percent of emissions/pollution/etc"
I agree; but that's also not a very useful observation. Modern society depends on industry of all types, and national independence depends on at least some of it being local. We can try to make it cleaner, and to some degree we can choose which types to implement. But we do not have the option to just wish it all away.
It would be very nice if we could have our cake and eat it too.
> They hum. That's about it.
lol. just by having a light pole there you start disturbing the insectoid life
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Would you mind a data center sprouting up in your backyard? Just ask residents near Elon's new gas turbine powered GPU datacenters how lovely they find the hum.
Framing the choice as a dichotomy between data centers and other industrial plants misses the obvious third option: nothing at all, preserve the status quo.
No, and it also won't matter what they feel about it, when Google and the contractor just ignores what's marked as protected and clears it anyway:
> Halmeenpää said satellite imagery shows that areas that should have been protected have already been leveled. Beyond the loss of so much forest, the outcome could be dire for wildlife preservation.
Well, at that point fine them properly and use the proceeds to establish new wildlife sanctuary.
Unless of course the judicial system has been corrupted but that's surely a bit of a stretch no?
It would be good to use funds that way but it's not gonna get the protected species back. We need some teeth to actually stop these things from happening
Given the AI boosters don’t care much about humans I don’t think they consider other forms of organic life too important
About a square mile, and the problem is procedural nonsense about the timing of paperwork rather than the paperwork actually showing a problem. Storm in a teacup.
Google might end up paying some minimal fine and everyone else will continue to drink their tea.
Google probably even factored in the expected fine versus having the data centre done X months/years earlier compared to completing all the red tape in due course.
That’s how corps make profit: by weighing up costs versus time versus risks versus legality. Won’t be surprised that they even considered making ~~bribes~~ political donations to get it done faster.
The paperwork can't show a problem because they didn't make any paperwork. And they are required to make the paperwork and they know that they were required because they asked the authorities if they could just skip it and got rejected.
Well, then it was totally worth it to destroy the forest of a foreign nation so the crime syndicate Google can show more scam ads.
~3 square kilometres is absurd amount of forest to be removed for something as silly as a data centre. I hope Google gets fined and made to restore the area.
Agree. Why does Google need land to store data in first place, when they can just keep data in hard disks or SSDs etc.