I wasn't expecting to see Dernocua at the top of HN today with 53 comments. You can download Dernocua as a whole from http://canonical.org/~kragen/dernocua/ if you're interested.
I'm happy to answer any questions. (Well, almost any.)
Well, "Dercuano" sounds like "Dirk One Oh" in English, so clearly the sequel should be "Dirk Two Oh". And "Dernocua" is the properly formed vesre of cuaderno, unlike "Dercuano", which unfortunately certain people were too polite to inform me was ill-formed until too late.
:-)
Mostly I wanted a name that was short, easy to remember, and unique.
No, there should be no PFAS. The surface will be covered in trace amounts of oil from production, but other than that it should be entirely aluminum alloy.
It does not, but aluminum oxide is even more of a "forever chemical" than teflon is, though less so than, for example, the nitrogen that constitutes 78% of the atmosphere.
i guess in that case the question would be if one should be as worried about the biological effects of PFAS as much as these two other forever chemicals you cite
The irony is that the more 'forever' (non reactive) the chemical, the less effect they have on the body, generally speaking. You do not want something with a short half-life in your body
This made me wonder about a 3D printer alternative that builds things by folding a thin sheet of metal into arbitrary shapes instead of extruding filament.
I made an artwork in 2013-ish, where I attached an aluminum foil to a good DC motor. I mounted it from the ceiling with 2 stepper motors to control height and one orthogonal axis. The motor would unwind the foil by accelerating quickly in either direction (CW/CCW). By changing directions it would also create folds and stabilize the emerging shape: https://imgur.com/a/gaRKGtQ
I always imagined an additional stepper motor to cover an area like a delta 3D printer and liked to think about the difficulty in creating the 3D software, and the need to find a solution to simulate the unwinding-into-shape through some physical model.
Well, AIUI, Medialab AI were told they were going to be fined for tracking children, and using their personal data, if they didn't stop ... so they blocked the UK from access.
A united democratic Korea would be great though, good call.
My college had a 'rapid prototyping' machine circa 2000 that worked in paper. Roll out a layer of paper, cut through the top layer, something something glue, roll out the next layer, etc. No reason that couldn't work with aluminum foil.
I can just tell you from experience that aluminum foil is much more fragile than paper, your college might face some difficult challenges in making it work and need to rework their machine. Maybe very lightweight paper comes close, but certainly not the standard 80gsm printing paper.
I created an embossing machine than would emboss aluminum foil with the scratch marks of a teaspoon. Aluminum foil tends to get a fold rather quickly, doing that for 40m was quite a challenge.
I mean, one of the most useful metal fabrication techniques is already folding thin sheets of metal; I learned it in shop class decades ago and it's still a very relevant skill. Some fun stuff here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dS5kwdaNhZo
That's SPIF ("single-point incremental forming"), which is mentioned in passing in my note:
> These can presumably be removed, permitting traditional SPIF processing of raw foil by sliding the point over the foil; a better alternative might be...
I don't think it's closely related to 0-_-0's "folding" idea.
It's non-toxic and food safe, and yet a significant number of people on the internet still act like it's poison that will give you Alzheimer's. I wonder how many of those people touch their lips to the lid of an aluminum beverage can. Or how they might bake a lasagna at home.
Let's see if this is a quantitatively plausible concern.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium_chloride says orl-rat LD₅₀ of AlCl₃ is 380mg/kg, which is 20.2% aluminum by weight, so that's 77mg/kg of soluble aluminum ions. If this toxicity is due to soluble aluminum ions (rather than, say, acidity), and rats and humans are about equally sensitive to aluminum toxicity, you'd need about 3.8g of aluminum to kill a 50kg human, the ionized equivalent of 1.42mℓ of aluminum metal (at 2.71g/cc). That's 1420cm² of 10μm aluminum foil completely dissolved in the food.
Presumably you would get significant toxic effects well before reaching the lethal dose, so it would be wise to avoid exposures larger than a few tens of cm² of aluminum foil completely dissolved in your food. So it seems like the concern at least passes the first smoke test of plausibility: the total amount of aluminum present in a "grilling packet" is at least sufficient to worry about.
(Fortunately, aluminum rapidly becomes inert in the body, so we don't have to be concerned about gradual poisoning the way we do with lead and arsenic.)
The crucial question, then, is how fast the foil corrodes under cooking conditions! If it corrodes (and migrates into the food) at a micron or more per hour, then this could be a serious concern. But, if the corrosion rate is more like microns per month or microns per year, the dose wouldn't be high enough to worry about.
There's no risk to leeching, there's no data proving any link at all between Aluminum and Alzheimer's. I was a huge advocate for staying away from Aluminum cooking stuff for a long time and my mother even wound up with Alzheimer's. Simply put, I was wrong, there's no link.
"Aluminum (Al) is a widespread environmental contaminant " - they lost me right there in the very first sentence.
Already using charged, non-neutral language ("contaminant"), giving away their pre-existing bias and forcing me to disregard the rest of their opinion on the matter. Aluminum is no more "environmental contaminant" than any other extremely common basic element in the Earth's crust, like silicon or iron. Are they also against chlorine?
Clearly they decided to conduct a study to show just how scary aluminum is, and I have no doubt the succeeded.
Yeah, it's the third most abundant element on the planet. If that's a contaminant, then so is iron and oxygen and nitrogen. Did you know Dihydrogen Monoxide is found in 100% of cancers?
The EU is known to be far more conservative with health and safety than other areas. I focused on the risk of aluminum, not leeching because leeching doesn't matter of the aluminum doesn't cause any issues. And from what I'ce seen in the past decade, it doesn't. I was wrong.
Aluminum is generally thought to be benign by most authorities.
However, it is worth noting that humans were not exposed to aluminum in the environment until relatively recently, when we started extracting it from bauxite and melting it.
Aluminum is a major component of all soils, and soluble aluminum salts have been used in medicine and dyeing since ancient Greece, probably since ancient Egypt. They have been used in food preparation for at least several centuries.
It's not that my argument is flawed so much as that it depends on some basic background knowledge about processes like corrosion and solvation. Lacking that knowledge, you're better off taking my word for it that humans are not exposed to aluminum in the environment in a different way since we started refining the metal.
I put aluminium foil over a bowl of pizza dough, as it grew the top touched the foil and in a few spots tiny holes appeared in the foil. I wonder if it was carbonic acid or what
It probably formed a weak battery electrode with the bowl and electro-deposited it on the substrate (pizza). Happens often with tomato sauces, like lasagnas.
Oh, thanks! You are surely correct; I was puzzled about how something as relatively inert as pizza dough could corrode aluminum at multiple microns per hour, but electrolysis can definitely do that.
i heard aluminum food containers are often coated with toxic liners, like plastics, bpa, and pfas.
If Alzheimers isnt a risk with pure aluminum metal, id say those liners are a huge risk.
Are kitchen foils coated? Im pretty sure cans are most of the time.
"Plastic" in general isn't toxic as a liner. It's used in plumbing, and in zillions of containers for potable water and foods. When you get food from even a nice restaurant, they probably marinate meat in a plastic container, and squeeze fruit juice into a plastic container. They sous vide items in plastic.
I've also never heard of a plastic/Alzheimer's connection, only one claimed with aluminum.
i didnt mean those contaminents cause Alzheimers, just that its a risk to general health. food grade plastic is not considered toxic at these doses, but u def dont want it in your body if u can avoid it within reasonable effort.
i use freezer bags made from plastic , and reuse plastic ziplocs from some food stuffs i buy to marinate meat, its really convenient to be able to remove the air and have the marinade fully coat the food.
i reuse plastic water bottles until i forget them somewhere.
im def using plastic to store food.
i eat canned food too, and most of the cans mention something about their liner safety right on the can. bpa-ni is interesting, in that they say they dont intentionally use bpa liner, but bpa could still be there, wtf , how are u so unsure as a manufacturer to what ur inputs are on a factory made can.
that being said, im not storing food in there for years, only hours when i use plastic in my own processes.
plastic in can liners often holds food for years, and the expiration date of canned food is often many years after the food is manufactured and canned.
"Plastic" is not a material; it's a property or state of many unrelated materials. It doesn't make any more sense to say that plastic is a risk to health than to say that liquid is a risk to health or that crystals are a risk to health.
Probably not complete BS. This is anecdotal, but years of experience has taught me that aluminum-containing antiperspirants cause contact dermatitis for me after extended use.
I was also diagnosed with a nickel allergy by a dermatologist when I was a child. Metal allergies are real.
I wouldn't go so far as to say aluminum is toxic for everyone, but it's certainly something I avoid putting on my skin.
how funny things work - from Napoleon serving his special guests on aluminium utensils [1] to everyone taking it for granted, even treating it as if it is toxic!
cost and availability somehow has a negative correlation to how we treat something.
That aluminum beverage can (and also tin cans) is lined with a kind of plastic, so you and food aren’t in contact with the actual aluminum in that case
>Robert Lang recommends laminating tissue paper on one or both sides of kitchen aluminum foil to make “tissue foil”, which for years he considered the ideal origami material.
The sculptor Kim Beaton likes to champion foil as a "metal clay" for sculpting. Keep it full of air pockets and it's easy to shape. You can use hot glue to put parts together, and then cover it in other clays for fine details and coloring. She does quick demos for tour groups at Weta Workshop in New Zealand.
I appreciated the paean to aluminum foil in Project Hail Mary where (spoilers) the hero uses it as bowling pins and to reproduce astrophage to eventually save two worlds. It's right up there in the pantheon of useful things with duct tape.
Photographers and cinematographers are like: ohhh let me sit you down and tell you all about my love of blackwrap.
Aluminium foil is amazing stuff. Aluminium foil adhesive tape, in particular, is incredibly useful.
Being a multi-domain kind of geek the random tapes section of my tool drawers also contains mylar tape and fashion tape (or "tit tape" as a friend calls it) but the aluminium foil tape has proved to have many useful applications.
I have used it to repair torn foil of photographic umbrellas and softboxes, seal light leaks on a repaired darkroom enlarger head, make a reflective pattern for a photo shoot, add a temporary airtight seal on a cracked tube with just two thin layers of tape.
The main issue with the foil tape I have is that it is both thin and very sticky so it can be a pickle to remove.
Not really tested its conductivity yet but for example I realised the other day that I could probably use it to selectively light proof a 3D printed box.
At my previous job we made >1m wide 8um thick copper foil by electroplating it onto a giant titanium drum from blue copper sulfate solution. It was quite impressive.
> 50¢/m² is 50¢/kWp in a solar concentrator, or 0.05¢/Wp, which is noticeably cheaper than photovoltaic cells, currently around 18¢/Wp, 360 times more expensive.
A photovoltaic cell is a solar panel, and a piece of aluminium does nothing, am I missing something here?
I think the implication is you can use it to reflect additional light onto your photocell, improving the power output for a smaller cost than purchasing an additional cell.
I just skimmed and read parts but I really enjoyed reading this. It's like my own handwritten notes which are just stray thoughts about a subject. Maybe I should publish more of those and I love the idea of just musing about a single thing, like Aluminum Foil (though it's very interesting stuff).
I was enjoying the ADHD hyper focus writing, kind of following along, then:
> If we figure that the foil can meaningfully change direction every 20 μm, then we might think of an aluminum-foil machine as being made of “moving parts” on the order of 1000 μm² (50 μm × 20 μm), 1000 “parts” per square millimeter of foil; a roll of kitchen aluminum foil is enough to fabricate some 4 billion “parts”. A bootstrapping compiler might require 100 000 parts and thus a square centimeter of aluminum foil, cut and folded around into a shape a couple of millimeters in diameter. If it were doing only one thing at a time, and needed 10 seconds to construct/assemble each moving part, it would take about 12 days to recompile itself. This is probably adequately fast, barely, but probably not adequately robust against errors. It would probably be better to design it to have more parts and do many things at once, enabling it to be faster and correct errors.
Um, what? I'd like to see a sketch of this 100,000 part compiler very much. I have no idea what he/she is talking about here, in the slightest. But I am intrigued!
I've read a lot of his other writings so that context might be informing my reading here but it sounds like he's pretty straightforwardly discussing the potential of aluminum foil as a uniform-feedstock-slash-construction-material for a hypothetical self-reproducing microfabricator.
Sure, sure. I feel as if there are a lot of steps between a roll of foil and that micro fabricator, though. Like, how are the aluminum fabricator pieces replicably specified to the fabricator? Or is it more like he could imagine silicon controlling stepper motors moving the aluminum fabricator pieces around?
Perhaps I'm missing some commonly known self replicable micro fabricator design; if so, please <<--- send links.
I do not currently have a sketch of a matter compiler, just a rough estimate that most of its parts count would probably be RAM, and that it probably needs several kilobytes of RAM.
It's a pretty broad term, with a lot of possibilities, but generally I mean a machine which, given a design for a machine in the form of digital data, can build a working machine of that design without further human interaction. Some imperfect approximations of the idea already exist:
- living things such as bacteria, humans, and plants: DNA is digital, true, but it's an unsolved problem to design the DNA to make a plant grow into the shape of even a chair, much less a bicycle, a lathe, or a computer.
- 3-D printers such as RepRap: they generally can only produce very limited machines without further assembly, with only very limited palettes of materials, falling far short of being able to print a whole printer without human intervention.
- ordinary compilers such as GCC: though they have already had a significant economic impact, they require a feedstock of magnetic disks or erased Flash from which to manufacture their output program, which still leaves their users vulnerable to TSMC and Western Digital. Worse, the output program depends on a CPU to run, leaving the users vulnerable to Intel and Qualcomm.
I like the idea of the lowest technology hurdle required to build one such device. Any ideas? Seems like we must be there in terms of inventability now. A good project to work on!
Your response comment saying "I have now read all of that" was posted 11 hours after I linked you to a bit over 120,000 words of notes on the topic you were asking about (according to 150 * [...document.body.innerText.matchAll(/(\d+)\s+minutes/g)].map(m => Number(m[1])).reduce((a, b) => a + b, 0) on a non-overlapping subset of the topic pages).
Some of that material is a little difficult. How did you manage to read it all so fast? I'd like to hear what you found most interesting.
It reads like a rambling of a mad scientist, but I think simply adding pictures would make this feel absolutely normal (in the crowd of other blogs featured on hn)
>Alternatively, though, it might be possible to stiffen the foil by making the equivalent of corrugated cardboard out of it, maybe using aqueous boric acid (US$1.70/kg according to Potential local sources and prices of refractory materials) or borax as the glue. The surface tension of water is ample to hold aluminum foil in place until the water dries.
Hello Amazon? Billion dollar idea here. This needs more attention. You could have fully recyclable aluminum boxes instead of cardboard. Imagine your box supply chain literally being a circle.
aluminum foil is generally not something you can recycle. Not that it can't be recyled, but the oxide to pure aluminum ratio is high and so you don't gain much since you need all the energy of refining in the first place to get back to something usable.
Amazon needs stronger boxes than foil anyway. Cardboard is likely best for them.
Is the very thin paper used in constructing corrugated cardboard that strong compared to aluminum foil?
I don't have the answer to that, but it does tell us that very thin, relatively weak materials can be used to construct much stronger things, and we shouldn't casually compare the underlying materials with the finished product.
Another thing not mentioned on there about aluminium foil is how clean it is. We work with a laminar flow hood and pull a fresh layer of foil anytime we are working to create a clean base to work on. I can guarantee you that if you run a swab over a fresh sheet of foil and smear it onto sterile nutrient agar that it won't grow anything - that said, we use costco foil which is thicker gauge and not the budget thinner stuff which is definitely inferior.
any tips on how to reliably get that "thicker gauge" one? I've been craving it since maybe 20y ago when I got a roll from my old stint in a restaurant. I've tried buying some rolls by "heavy duty" labels and these days it's just as likely to be one of those thin "look at it funny and it tears".
Costco sell two different types of foil, one is shorter and has blue packaging and the other is longer and has red packaging... It's the red one which is much thicker.
I think it's the high-heat manufacturing process which kills all microbes. Spores would be unaffected by aluminium foil, so it's defo something else like heat is my thoughts - basically being sterilised during manufacturing.
Aluminum is honestly a miracle material that has no business being as inexpensive as it is (of course, this is only since the invention of the Hall–Héroult process, before which aluminum was one of the most expensive metals known despite making up ~8% of the crust).
Aluminium is usually "good enough" relative to copper on both types of conductivity, and it soundly beats copper in terms of conductivity per unit weight (which is the metric of interest in many applications) and presumably in terms of material cost too. Copper is better if you want minimum physical size, though. (EDIT: Copper does have some durability advantages though which is another reason it's often favoured)
It is indeed the conductor of choice at utility scale. It was even briefly used in place of copper wire in construction [1], though that usage was halted when safety issues emerged (differential expansion when mated with legacy copper pulled apart joints and created major fire hazards)
I thought the problem was primarily galvanic activity between copper and aluminum, not thermal growth. A bit of searching says this is so in environments with any wetting or very high humidity. The increased resistivity of aluminum's oxide layer is also part of it.
Mostly because it is made in a multistep batch process that requires a few hours in an autoclave to cure the epoxy that bonds the skins to the core. And if you want to make anything but a flat panel you will need a very expensive bond jig tool.
But if you REALLY want spend money like it’s going out of style, try all-welded titanium honeycomb. These guys made a lot of parts for the XB-70 bomber, and the afterburners for Concorde.
This is pretty much just rambling about how amazing aluminium foil is because it's so thin and that might enable all sorts of wonderful imaginary applications. Very HN. It's aluminium foil.
That's the neat part though, isn't it? It's a product that's so good that there's no everyday alternatives to it. I was researching cat litter options recently and cat owners do a lot of thinking and talking about litter, because there's a variety of different materials, none of which are solidly better than all others in all situations. But aluminium foil is so good that we don't even think about it, because it's by far the best product for every application that we use it for.
Has a kid, my mom used to pack my lunch in aluminium foil and everyday was a challenge of trying to make the perfect aluminium ball and throw it in the trashcan[1] on the first try!
Read this guy's ramblings and give me one cool application that he has found. Lots of "maybe it could do this!" and "it can do <completely useless thing>!"
The trick to being a good hacker is acquiring a sufficient supply of useless information, such that when that information is suddenly not useless, you have it at hand.
Which is to say, it's your job to figure out what the cool applications are.
By "here" do you mean "the internet"? Are you trying to discourage people from sharing their calculations and observations with one another if they don't personally interest you?
If so, what is wrong with you?
I didn't post my notes on HN; in fact, I didn't even post them on dernocua.github.io.
To share with a community of like-minded individuals, many of whom found it interesting enough to both upvote and comment?
You understand the rest of us do actually exist, right? That we’re, you know, real people with thoughts and opinions and feelings, right? This isn’t pinboard or something.
Aluminum foil makes a great, cheap light bounce for photography on the fly. Your photos will instantly look better either reflecting to the back of their head 180 from shot, or as a fill for their face.
When exposed to air at room temperature, or any other gas containing oxygen, pure aluminium self-passivates by forming a surface layer of amorphous aluminium oxide 2 to 3 nm thick,[4] which provides very effective protection against corrosion. Aluminium alloys typically form a thicker oxide layer, 5–15 nm thick, but tend to be more susceptible to corrosion.
I wasn't expecting to see Dernocua at the top of HN today with 53 comments. You can download Dernocua as a whole from http://canonical.org/~kragen/dernocua/ if you're interested.
I'm happy to answer any questions. (Well, almost any.)
What's up with the dercuano, derctuo, and dernocua naming? Are there just these three? Does the naming follow some pattern?
Well, "Dercuano" sounds like "Dirk One Oh" in English, so clearly the sequel should be "Dirk Two Oh". And "Dernocua" is the properly formed vesre of cuaderno, unlike "Dercuano", which unfortunately certain people were too polite to inform me was ill-formed until too late.
:-)
Mostly I wanted a name that was short, easy to remember, and unique.
My current notes are in http://canonical.org/~kragen/sw/pavnotes2.git/
Does aluminum foil contain PFAS and does cooking on them on the grill for example expose the food to forever chemicals?
No, there should be no PFAS. The surface will be covered in trace amounts of oil from production, but other than that it should be entirely aluminum alloy.
https://www.epa.gov/system/files/documents/2025-04/foil-stud...
It does not, but aluminum oxide is even more of a "forever chemical" than teflon is, though less so than, for example, the nitrogen that constitutes 78% of the atmosphere.
i guess in that case the question would be if one should be as worried about the biological effects of PFAS as much as these two other forever chemicals you cite
I think it's a little late to be worrying about Nitrogen in the atmosphere.
If it's any consolation I believe it's mostly harmless.
Also true of teflon, aluminum oxide, and Earth as a whole. Perfluorooctanoic acid, by contrast, is not mostly harmless.
The irony is that the more 'forever' (non reactive) the chemical, the less effect they have on the body, generally speaking. You do not want something with a short half-life in your body
seems like the cert may have expired
Thanks! I keep unintentionally using https links to canonical.org since basically the whole web is https now. Fixed.
This made me wonder about a 3D printer alternative that builds things by folding a thin sheet of metal into arbitrary shapes instead of extruding filament.
I made an artwork in 2013-ish, where I attached an aluminum foil to a good DC motor. I mounted it from the ceiling with 2 stepper motors to control height and one orthogonal axis. The motor would unwind the foil by accelerating quickly in either direction (CW/CCW). By changing directions it would also create folds and stabilize the emerging shape: https://imgur.com/a/gaRKGtQ
I always imagined an additional stepper motor to cover an area like a delta 3D printer and liked to think about the difficulty in creating the 3D software, and the need to find a solution to simulate the unwinding-into-shape through some physical model.
EDIT: unwinding GIF here: https://imgur.com/a/VP3gEiv
Imgur is not working anymore in UK :(
Alternative links:
https://postimg.cc/Q9vjhdrk
https://postimg.cc/9D1Vzphj
United Korea is best korea!
Well, AIUI, Medialab AI were told they were going to be fined for tracking children, and using their personal data, if they didn't stop ... so they blocked the UK from access.
A united democratic Korea would be great though, good call.
My college had a 'rapid prototyping' machine circa 2000 that worked in paper. Roll out a layer of paper, cut through the top layer, something something glue, roll out the next layer, etc. No reason that couldn't work with aluminum foil.
I can just tell you from experience that aluminum foil is much more fragile than paper, your college might face some difficult challenges in making it work and need to rework their machine. Maybe very lightweight paper comes close, but certainly not the standard 80gsm printing paper.
I created an embossing machine than would emboss aluminum foil with the scratch marks of a teaspoon. Aluminum foil tends to get a fold rather quickly, doing that for 40m was quite a challenge.
The embossing machine: https://postimg.cc/67wkVGBy
The embossing process as GIF: https://postimg.cc/3W6zSqKx
The embossed aluminum foil as GIF: https://postimg.cc/yDh5NY0D
This is very impressive!
I mean, one of the most useful metal fabrication techniques is already folding thin sheets of metal; I learned it in shop class decades ago and it's still a very relevant skill. Some fun stuff here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dS5kwdaNhZo
Like this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dCXu8Ju_fdY
That's SPIF ("single-point incremental forming"), which is mentioned in passing in my note:
> These can presumably be removed, permitting traditional SPIF processing of raw foil by sliding the point over the foil; a better alternative might be...
I don't think it's closely related to 0-_-0's "folding" idea.
They do this. This is the coolest one IMO:
https://mantle3d.com/
That's not how mantle3d works. It's 3d printed metal alternating with CNC machining after several layers for precision:
https://mantle3d.com/how-it-works/
This is optionally followed by a pressurized furnace for sintering.
It's non-toxic and food safe, and yet a significant number of people on the internet still act like it's poison that will give you Alzheimer's. I wonder how many of those people touch their lips to the lid of an aluminum beverage can. Or how they might bake a lasagna at home.
You shouldn't use aluminum foil with tomato/lemon/vinegar/brined foods or as "grilling packets" (direct fire/high heat) because of leaching risk.
There's no concern with using aluminum in most cases (with dry/non-acidic foods) but leaching is a real problem with acidic/salty/wet/high eat.
Let's see if this is a quantitatively plausible concern.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium_chloride says orl-rat LD₅₀ of AlCl₃ is 380mg/kg, which is 20.2% aluminum by weight, so that's 77mg/kg of soluble aluminum ions. If this toxicity is due to soluble aluminum ions (rather than, say, acidity), and rats and humans are about equally sensitive to aluminum toxicity, you'd need about 3.8g of aluminum to kill a 50kg human, the ionized equivalent of 1.42mℓ of aluminum metal (at 2.71g/cc). That's 1420cm² of 10μm aluminum foil completely dissolved in the food.
Presumably you would get significant toxic effects well before reaching the lethal dose, so it would be wise to avoid exposures larger than a few tens of cm² of aluminum foil completely dissolved in your food. So it seems like the concern at least passes the first smoke test of plausibility: the total amount of aluminum present in a "grilling packet" is at least sufficient to worry about.
(Fortunately, aluminum rapidly becomes inert in the body, so we don't have to be concerned about gradual poisoning the way we do with lead and arsenic.)
The crucial question, then, is how fast the foil corrodes under cooking conditions! If it corrodes (and migrates into the food) at a micron or more per hour, then this could be a serious concern. But, if the corrosion rate is more like microns per month or microns per year, the dose wouldn't be high enough to worry about.
The fact that https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium_toxicity redirects to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium_toxicity_in_people_o... suggests that this is at least not a recognized concern.
How long does it take to leave the body?
I'm not sure, but I think that normally it reacts with phosphate ions to form aluminum phosphate rather than leaving the body.
There's no risk to leeching, there's no data proving any link at all between Aluminum and Alzheimer's. I was a huge advocate for staying away from Aluminum cooking stuff for a long time and my mother even wound up with Alzheimer's. Simply put, I was wrong, there's no link.
> "There's no risk to leeching, there's no data proving any link at all between Aluminum and Alzheimer's."
EFSA (European Food Safety Authority) says acidic or salty foods can increase aluminum leaching from pans and foil into food: https://efsa.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.2903/j.efsa....
This review found mixed evidence and a positive meta-analysis signal for aluminum exposure and Alzheimer's: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S014765132...
It's not that hard to avoid this leaching concern, seems smart to make a basic effort to do so.
"Aluminum (Al) is a widespread environmental contaminant " - they lost me right there in the very first sentence.
Already using charged, non-neutral language ("contaminant"), giving away their pre-existing bias and forcing me to disregard the rest of their opinion on the matter. Aluminum is no more "environmental contaminant" than any other extremely common basic element in the Earth's crust, like silicon or iron. Are they also against chlorine?
Clearly they decided to conduct a study to show just how scary aluminum is, and I have no doubt the succeeded.
Yeah, it's the third most abundant element on the planet. If that's a contaminant, then so is iron and oxygen and nitrogen. Did you know Dihydrogen Monoxide is found in 100% of cancers?
This is a paper on ecotoxicology and environmental safety, so describing aluminum as an "environmental contaminant" makes sense in this context.
> "Did you know Dihydrogen Monoxide is found in 100% of cancers?"
Did you know humans intentionally consume water because they need it to survive, and do not intentionally consume aluminum?
The EU is known to be far more conservative with health and safety than other areas. I focused on the risk of aluminum, not leeching because leeching doesn't matter of the aluminum doesn't cause any issues. And from what I'ce seen in the past decade, it doesn't. I was wrong.
What is the leaching risk, though? If aluminum does get in your food, is it bad for you in a specific way, or is it more like iron?
Aluminum is generally thought to be benign by most authorities.
However, it is worth noting that humans were not exposed to aluminum in the environment until relatively recently, when we started extracting it from bauxite and melting it.
Aluminum is a major component of all soils, and soluble aluminum salts have been used in medicine and dyeing since ancient Greece, probably since ancient Egypt. They have been used in food preparation for at least several centuries.
These are all separate chemical compounds, though. Are you claiming they all behave the same as refined aluminium?
I'll readily sprinkle soluble sodium chloride salt over my food. I still very much prefer to keep both substances away from it in elemental form.
Note that I'm not claiming aluminium were dangerous, just that your argument is deeply flawed.
It's not that my argument is flawed so much as that it depends on some basic background knowledge about processes like corrosion and solvation. Lacking that knowledge, you're better off taking my word for it that humans are not exposed to aluminum in the environment in a different way since we started refining the metal.
Pure aluminium maybe not, but it's a major component of clay.
Like most metals, excess aluminum in your diet is almost certainly bad for you.
EFSA full review: animal studies show nervous-system effects from aluminum exposure. https://efsa.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.2903/j.efsa....
CDC/ATSDR: oral risk levels are based on neurological effects seen in exposed animals. https://wwwn.cdc.gov/TSP/ToxProfiles/ToxProfiles.aspx?id=191...
I put aluminium foil over a bowl of pizza dough, as it grew the top touched the foil and in a few spots tiny holes appeared in the foil. I wonder if it was carbonic acid or what
It probably formed a weak battery electrode with the bowl and electro-deposited it on the substrate (pizza). Happens often with tomato sauces, like lasagnas.
Oh, thanks! You are surely correct; I was puzzled about how something as relatively inert as pizza dough could corrode aluminum at multiple microns per hour, but electrolysis can definitely do that.
i heard aluminum food containers are often coated with toxic liners, like plastics, bpa, and pfas. If Alzheimers isnt a risk with pure aluminum metal, id say those liners are a huge risk. Are kitchen foils coated? Im pretty sure cans are most of the time.
"Plastic" in general isn't toxic as a liner. It's used in plumbing, and in zillions of containers for potable water and foods. When you get food from even a nice restaurant, they probably marinate meat in a plastic container, and squeeze fruit juice into a plastic container. They sous vide items in plastic.
I've also never heard of a plastic/Alzheimer's connection, only one claimed with aluminum.
i didnt mean those contaminents cause Alzheimers, just that its a risk to general health. food grade plastic is not considered toxic at these doses, but u def dont want it in your body if u can avoid it within reasonable effort. i use freezer bags made from plastic , and reuse plastic ziplocs from some food stuffs i buy to marinate meat, its really convenient to be able to remove the air and have the marinade fully coat the food. i reuse plastic water bottles until i forget them somewhere. im def using plastic to store food. i eat canned food too, and most of the cans mention something about their liner safety right on the can. bpa-ni is interesting, in that they say they dont intentionally use bpa liner, but bpa could still be there, wtf , how are u so unsure as a manufacturer to what ur inputs are on a factory made can. that being said, im not storing food in there for years, only hours when i use plastic in my own processes. plastic in can liners often holds food for years, and the expiration date of canned food is often many years after the food is manufactured and canned.
"Plastic" is not a material; it's a property or state of many unrelated materials. It doesn't make any more sense to say that plastic is a risk to health than to say that liquid is a risk to health or that crystals are a risk to health.
I've only seen people concerned with it in antiperspirants, where it's a salt. (And to be clear, I think it's BS.)
As with NaCl, it's at least possible that the salt and the pure-ish variant aren't quite the same thing.
Probably not complete BS. This is anecdotal, but years of experience has taught me that aluminum-containing antiperspirants cause contact dermatitis for me after extended use.
I was also diagnosed with a nickel allergy by a dermatologist when I was a child. Metal allergies are real.
I wouldn't go so far as to say aluminum is toxic for everyone, but it's certainly something I avoid putting on my skin.
how funny things work - from Napoleon serving his special guests on aluminium utensils [1] to everyone taking it for granted, even treating it as if it is toxic!
cost and availability somehow has a negative correlation to how we treat something.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_aluminium#Early_ind...
Romans used lead utensils, I don't think that was due to cost.
we used to believe lead could be turned into gold, and used it in fuel to paint not too long ago.
hindsight 20/20, maybe i will be proven ignorant about aluminium in the future.
That aluminum beverage can (and also tin cans) is lined with a kind of plastic, so you and food aren’t in contact with the actual aluminum in that case
But the top of the lid is unlined, I think.
Nothing against aluminum foil here, but we make lasagna at home all the time in a square ceramic baking dish.
I will not give up my Jiffy Pop when camping!
1) all of them
2) glass dish
I use a glass/Pyrex dish, but put foil on top. I guess you could use a fitted glass lid instead, depending on the container.
>Robert Lang recommends laminating tissue paper on one or both sides of kitchen aluminum foil to make “tissue foil”, which for years he considered the ideal origami material.
The sculptor Kim Beaton likes to champion foil as a "metal clay" for sculpting. Keep it full of air pockets and it's easy to shape. You can use hot glue to put parts together, and then cover it in other clays for fine details and coloring. She does quick demos for tour groups at Weta Workshop in New Zealand.
I appreciated the paean to aluminum foil in Project Hail Mary where (spoilers) the hero uses it as bowling pins and to reproduce astrophage to eventually save two worlds. It's right up there in the pantheon of useful things with duct tape.
> A paean or pean is a song or lyric poem expressing triumph or thanksgiving
From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paean
Photographers and cinematographers are like: ohhh let me sit you down and tell you all about my love of blackwrap.
Aluminium foil is amazing stuff. Aluminium foil adhesive tape, in particular, is incredibly useful.
Being a multi-domain kind of geek the random tapes section of my tool drawers also contains mylar tape and fashion tape (or "tit tape" as a friend calls it) but the aluminium foil tape has proved to have many useful applications.
My go-to "real nice when you need it" tape is to have a roll of gaffer's tape. Stuff's amazing for what it does.
Such as?
I have used it to repair torn foil of photographic umbrellas and softboxes, seal light leaks on a repaired darkroom enlarger head, make a reflective pattern for a photo shoot, add a temporary airtight seal on a cracked tube with just two thin layers of tape.
The main issue with the foil tape I have is that it is both thin and very sticky so it can be a pickle to remove.
Not really tested its conductivity yet but for example I realised the other day that I could probably use it to selectively light proof a 3D printed box.
You can add a layer of another type of tape first if you need to cleanly remove it :)
This was on S01E01 of How It's Made. Probably one of the best segments in the shows history.
At my previous job we made >1m wide 8um thick copper foil by electroplating it onto a giant titanium drum from blue copper sulfate solution. It was quite impressive.
> 50¢/m² is 50¢/kWp in a solar concentrator, or 0.05¢/Wp, which is noticeably cheaper than photovoltaic cells, currently around 18¢/Wp, 360 times more expensive.
A photovoltaic cell is a solar panel, and a piece of aluminium does nothing, am I missing something here?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concentrated_solar_power
I think the implication is you can use it to reflect additional light onto your photocell, improving the power output for a smaller cost than purchasing an additional cell.
Why aren't photo cells already manufactured to be like 90% mirrors then?
Some guesses:
- A lot more direction-dependent.
- More maintenance related to keeping the right direction, maintaining more moving parts, etc.
- Less convenient form factor, more susceptible to wind, more unsightly.
- Less space-efficient, which matters for some applications like house rooftop installations.
I'm not sure, but I suspect cooling requirements also enter into consideration.
Direction dependence also means your output drops even more on cloudy/overcast days.
I just skimmed and read parts but I really enjoyed reading this. It's like my own handwritten notes which are just stray thoughts about a subject. Maybe I should publish more of those and I love the idea of just musing about a single thing, like Aluminum Foil (though it's very interesting stuff).
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I was enjoying the ADHD hyper focus writing, kind of following along, then:
Um, what? I'd like to see a sketch of this 100,000 part compiler very much. I have no idea what he/she is talking about here, in the slightest. But I am intrigued!I've read a lot of his other writings so that context might be informing my reading here but it sounds like he's pretty straightforwardly discussing the potential of aluminum foil as a uniform-feedstock-slash-construction-material for a hypothetical self-reproducing microfabricator.
Sure, sure. I feel as if there are a lot of steps between a roll of foil and that micro fabricator, though. Like, how are the aluminum fabricator pieces replicably specified to the fabricator? Or is it more like he could imagine silicon controlling stepper motors moving the aluminum fabricator pieces around?
Perhaps I'm missing some commonly known self replicable micro fabricator design; if so, please <<--- send links.
I do not currently have a sketch of a matter compiler, just a rough estimate that most of its parts count would probably be RAM, and that it probably needs several kilobytes of RAM.
Hi there! Thanks for the original post, and this sentence which exists in the same liminal space as the original post.
Tell me more about the matter compiler as you imagine it?
You're welcome!
It's a pretty broad term, with a lot of possibilities, but generally I mean a machine which, given a design for a machine in the form of digital data, can build a working machine of that design without further human interaction. Some imperfect approximations of the idea already exist:
- living things such as bacteria, humans, and plants: DNA is digital, true, but it's an unsolved problem to design the DNA to make a plant grow into the shape of even a chair, much less a bicycle, a lathe, or a computer.
- 3-D printers such as RepRap: they generally can only produce very limited machines without further assembly, with only very limited palettes of materials, falling far short of being able to print a whole printer without human intervention.
- ordinary compilers such as GCC: though they have already had a significant economic impact, they require a feedstock of magnetic disks or erased Flash from which to manufacture their output program, which still leaves their users vulnerable to TSMC and Western Digital. Worse, the output program depends on a CPU to run, leaving the users vulnerable to Intel and Qualcomm.
I like the idea of the lowest technology hurdle required to build one such device. Any ideas? Seems like we must be there in terms of inventability now. A good project to work on!
Yeah, I do have some ideas: https://dernocua.github.io/topics/digital-fabrication.html https://dernocua.github.io/topics/self-replication.html https://dercuano.github.io/topics/self-replication.html https://derctuo.github.io/topics/self-replication.html https://dercuano.github.io/topics/digital-fabrication.html etc.
Thanks. I have now read all of that, and think I have a rough idea of what’s interesting you. What are you working on right now?
Your response comment saying "I have now read all of that" was posted 11 hours after I linked you to a bit over 120,000 words of notes on the topic you were asking about (according to 150 * [...document.body.innerText.matchAll(/(\d+)\s+minutes/g)].map(m => Number(m[1])).reduce((a, b) => a + b, 0) on a non-overlapping subset of the topic pages).
Some of that material is a little difficult. How did you manage to read it all so fast? I'd like to hear what you found most interesting.
As for what I'm working on right now, probably seeing the sunrise tomorrow, but see also https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48807996
It reads like a rambling of a mad scientist, but I think simply adding pictures would make this feel absolutely normal (in the crowd of other blogs featured on hn)
And today... I shall TAKE OVER THE WORLD, Igor!
>Alternatively, though, it might be possible to stiffen the foil by making the equivalent of corrugated cardboard out of it, maybe using aqueous boric acid (US$1.70/kg according to Potential local sources and prices of refractory materials) or borax as the glue. The surface tension of water is ample to hold aluminum foil in place until the water dries.
Hello Amazon? Billion dollar idea here. This needs more attention. You could have fully recyclable aluminum boxes instead of cardboard. Imagine your box supply chain literally being a circle.
I don't know about corrugated aluminium, but aluminium honeycomb is definitely a thing: https://www.easycomposites.co.uk/aluminium-honeycomb
aluminum foil is generally not something you can recycle. Not that it can't be recyled, but the oxide to pure aluminum ratio is high and so you don't gain much since you need all the energy of refining in the first place to get back to something usable.
Amazon needs stronger boxes than foil anyway. Cardboard is likely best for them.
the oxide to pure aluminum ratio is high
For some definition of high? Standard foil is around 20 um thick while the oxide layer only goes about 10 nm deep.
When you melt thin al that creates more oxide as well.
Only if you do it in an oxidizing atmosphere. Though aluminum is very liberal about its definition of "oxidizing atmosphere".
Is the very thin paper used in constructing corrugated cardboard that strong compared to aluminum foil? I don't have the answer to that, but it does tell us that very thin, relatively weak materials can be used to construct much stronger things, and we shouldn't casually compare the underlying materials with the finished product.
That would be hell on everybody's box-cutters (and fingers). I already cut myself too often on shipping boxes.
I wasn't suggesting using it for shipping boxes, but rather for things like robot arms.
Cardboard is very recyclable already.
75% of it, aluminum can get to 99%
https://www.afandpa.org/news/2024/how-much-paper-was-recycle...
Solid aluminum, not foil. Foil is terribly wasteful, due to oxidation (existing and created by the melting process).
Another thing not mentioned on there about aluminium foil is how clean it is. We work with a laminar flow hood and pull a fresh layer of foil anytime we are working to create a clean base to work on. I can guarantee you that if you run a swab over a fresh sheet of foil and smear it onto sterile nutrient agar that it won't grow anything - that said, we use costco foil which is thicker gauge and not the budget thinner stuff which is definitely inferior.
any tips on how to reliably get that "thicker gauge" one? I've been craving it since maybe 20y ago when I got a roll from my old stint in a restaurant. I've tried buying some rolls by "heavy duty" labels and these days it's just as likely to be one of those thin "look at it funny and it tears".
Costco sell two different types of foil, one is shorter and has blue packaging and the other is longer and has red packaging... It's the red one which is much thicker.
Wasn't it a think that "stuff" dies on exposed metal?
I think it's the high-heat manufacturing process which kills all microbes. Spores would be unaffected by aluminium foil, so it's defo something else like heat is my thoughts - basically being sterilised during manufacturing.
I had no idea about that!
Amazing. This reads like someone left Hunter S. Thompson alone with a roll of Reynolds Wrap.
Thank you.
Weird Al said it best:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=urglg3WimHA
Aluminum is honestly a miracle material that has no business being as inexpensive as it is (of course, this is only since the invention of the Hall–Héroult process, before which aluminum was one of the most expensive metals known despite making up ~8% of the crust).
Yup. The very tip of the Washington Monument was made of aluminium, which made it faaaaaancy. Two years later, not so much.
Geeking out over specific materials feels like the physical equivalent of geeking out over programming languages.
Worth noting that aluminum is the most abundant metal of the Moon’s highland geography, thus excellent for bootstrapping beyond Earth.
There's even a song about it:
https://youtube.com/watch?v=urglg3WimHA
>...and conductive, rivaling copper.
That isn't true for either thermal or electrical conductivity. So I don't know what is meant here.
Aluminium is usually "good enough" relative to copper on both types of conductivity, and it soundly beats copper in terms of conductivity per unit weight (which is the metric of interest in many applications) and presumably in terms of material cost too. Copper is better if you want minimum physical size, though. (EDIT: Copper does have some durability advantages though which is another reason it's often favoured)
It is indeed the conductor of choice at utility scale. It was even briefly used in place of copper wire in construction [1], though that usage was halted when safety issues emerged (differential expansion when mated with legacy copper pulled apart joints and created major fire hazards)
1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminum_building_wiring
I thought the problem was primarily galvanic activity between copper and aluminum, not thermal growth. A bit of searching says this is so in environments with any wetting or very high humidity. The increased resistivity of aluminum's oxide layer is also part of it.
Basically: they just don't play well together.
Im interested in using honeycomb aluminum panels for some projects but curious why its so freaking expensive?
Mostly because it is made in a multistep batch process that requires a few hours in an autoclave to cure the epoxy that bonds the skins to the core. And if you want to make anything but a flat panel you will need a very expensive bond jig tool.
But if you REALLY want spend money like it’s going out of style, try all-welded titanium honeycomb. These guys made a lot of parts for the XB-70 bomber, and the afterburners for Concorde.
https://www.astechep.com/honeycomb
Aluminum is always present in physics laboratories. I bet it is used even in CERN.
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The name of the metal is Aluminium. Of course, America had to introduce yet another typo.
Maybe you're just taking the piss from over the pond, but the differing names/spellings aren't just a typo by us dumb, arrogant Americans:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium#Naming_and_spelling_...
Cheers. :-)
This is pretty much just rambling about how amazing aluminium foil is because it's so thin and that might enable all sorts of wonderful imaginary applications. Very HN. It's aluminium foil.
That's the neat part though, isn't it? It's a product that's so good that there's no everyday alternatives to it. I was researching cat litter options recently and cat owners do a lot of thinking and talking about litter, because there's a variety of different materials, none of which are solidly better than all others in all situations. But aluminium foil is so good that we don't even think about it, because it's by far the best product for every application that we use it for.
You sound like someone who hasn't explored the upper limits of what aluminum foil can solve!
Has a kid, my mom used to pack my lunch in aluminium foil and everyday was a challenge of trying to make the perfect aluminium ball and throw it in the trashcan[1] on the first try!
1. Recycling was a vague concept in the 80s & 90s
Your local recycler probably doesn't want al foil even today when recycling is a big thing.
Read this guy's ramblings and give me one cool application that he has found. Lots of "maybe it could do this!" and "it can do <completely useless thing>!"
The trick to being a good hacker is acquiring a sufficient supply of useless information, such that when that information is suddenly not useless, you have it at hand.
Which is to say, it's your job to figure out what the cool applications are.
Yeah fine, take notes. Why post them here?
By "here" do you mean "the internet"? Are you trying to discourage people from sharing their calculations and observations with one another if they don't personally interest you?
If so, what is wrong with you?
I didn't post my notes on HN; in fact, I didn't even post them on dernocua.github.io.
To share with a community of like-minded individuals, many of whom found it interesting enough to both upvote and comment?
You understand the rest of us do actually exist, right? That we’re, you know, real people with thoughts and opinions and feelings, right? This isn’t pinboard or something.
Aluminum foil makes a great, cheap light bounce for photography on the fly. Your photos will instantly look better either reflecting to the back of their head 180 from shot, or as a fill for their face.
What's really thin is the oxide layer on the surface
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anodizing
When exposed to air at room temperature, or any other gas containing oxygen, pure aluminium self-passivates by forming a surface layer of amorphous aluminium oxide 2 to 3 nm thick,[4] which provides very effective protection against corrosion. Aluminium alloys typically form a thicker oxide layer, 5–15 nm thick, but tend to be more susceptible to corrosion.
it usually is not only aluminium oxide but a mixture of aluminium oxide and aluminium hydroxide if it is normal (read: moist) air