As a father of multiple kids younger than that, I have a very different experience.
I’m sorry you’re going through this, but I’m slightly taken aback by this comment because this isn’t a common feature of having older children. The only parents I know having sleep deprivation problems have very young children. I have a lot of parent friends and I’ve never heard anyone claim that sleep deprivation continued until older ages, let alone that it’s common.
Like I said, I have kids too. But enforcing boundaries and sleep schedules is lot different than claiming a decade of sleep depreciation. Kids sleep longer than we do as adults. I’m not losing sleep by getting them up in the morning unless I stay up late on my own, because we both have things to do in the morning.
My wife and I have a 7 month old and have learned that other parents do not like hearing about babies who sleep well. We don’t bring it up deliberately, but it comes up in conversation naturally sometimes. I have a lot of friends who say their 2+ year olds still don’t sleep through the night and say we’re lucky.
The luck attribution really downplays the rigidity of the schedule and routines my wife and I have kept for the little dude for MONTHS. It is the same schedule every single evening barring extenuating circumstances. But nobody wants to accept that we actually put effort in day after day to protect and foster the sleep schedule.
Right! I am very open about the sleep challenges I face with my children, but I also believe that the problem is due to lack of a rigid schedule. Routine is key not only for sleep, but general development. Unfortunately, I haven’t figured out how to get on the same page with my spouse about this.
You may be attributing way too much to what you are doing. And that will make it hard to accept the inevitable negative chance outcomes that will be entirely out of your control.
I know parents whose first kid slept through the night at 3 months, and their second one not sleeping through the night at age 3. Skill issue? I don’t think so. And these people are such routine enforcers that they described themselves as “stubborn.”
And then there is sickness. Amount of sun and physical activity the child gets during the day, which will depend on geography and the kid’s personality.
Our 6 year old daughter sits down, and does a ton of art. Her 2 year old sister runs laps around the house for fun. Her favorite activity is running and slamming herself to the couch. Do you think these kids get similar physical activity? What if I told you they go to sleep around the same time and have no trouble waking up?
Edit: Forgot to mention night terrors. Doctor told us about it for the first one. Had no idea what he meant, and didn’t even care to look it up because it didn’t happen. Until the 2nd one hit 15 months or so. Imagine a barely 1 year old in an extremely confused state while asleep, sitting in her bed, screaming, sometimes hitting her head on the sides of the bed, getting more agitated if you pick her up. I read that it can last up to 30 minutes. Thank god ours were no longer than 5 minutes. It’s horrific when it happens for the first time. Straight out of the Exorcist movie.
What could a 6-24 month old possibly do from their bed in their room, to disturb your sleep in your bed in your room? Bring a trumpet to bed and badly play Miles Davis?
What happened to lights off, door closed, do whatever you want in complete darkness in the bed that you aren’t able to climb out of?
Same, as the father of three children, I believe a lot of it has to do with sleep pattern conditioning. You are literally training minds to sleep on a rigid schedule to keep your own sanity. That implies sticking to rigid timing as much as possible and creating the optimal environment for success. E.g., correct lighting, air movement, sound (I highly recommend “Hey Siri, play Pure Meditation playlist”) at a low volume, and if you live in an otherwise particularly hectic environment, appropriately dosed and timed melatonin supplements. You reap the rewards of your own hard training work, or suffer the consequences of the lack thereof.
The battlefield changes as kids age. It’s impossible to have any realistic discussion about sleep habits without discussing the elephant in the room. What is your device policy and how do you manage screen time, what your bedtime routine is (you better have one!) and how good you are at sticking to the timing on a daily basis.
Congrats and guard your sleep hygiene as much as possible (practically impossible advice to follow in most cases).
I went through a really rough period because of the lack of sleep. I noticed that hydration during that period was also challenging, so I wonder if this is related to the brain shrink effect.
These brain chemical rewards apparently do not work on me, my (still young) kids provide no such rejuvenation. Luckily I'm a deep sleeper so I have no sleep deprivation problems.
Parents are supposed to sleep when the baby sleeps. Industrial work culture does not allow this. One of the many things leading the "Western" lifestyle to extinction.
The babies I know yet don't sleep like adults which means that you will be up at night at random hours that you are not used to and I think this has nothing to do with industrial work culture.
That 6-8 hours of uninterrupted sleep is just a "dream" :).
I recall, as a twins dad, I did not have 2+ hours of uninterrupted sleep till they are 2 years old. (This depends on the kid though).
This is funny in how cut and dry it is. My friend, do you have kids?
It's my theory that crying evolved as a trait because it forces parents to go find some place safe lest a predator finds them, thus ensuring the helpless kid can grow in safe environments.
Note that there is no mention of sleep in there. That's bonus round if you get it.
They should be sleep deprived the same way for it to be a real control group, at least in the context of "becoming a father". Otherwise it's just "being sleep deprived for 6-12 months has X effect", which is much less informative. We already know being sleep deprived for long stretches is really bad.
Yes, so then that way you would know if there's something special about raising children that causes cerebellum shrinkage, or if it is just run of the mill sleep deprivation that causes it
I'd need to read the actual paper, but isn't poor sleep also correlated with "shrinkage" in the brain? And when you have a baby, sleep is one of those things that you don't typically get enough, or high enough quality, of.
Father of a ten year old here; I definitely still daydream, and I think I did for most of the time I've been a father - but it's genuinely difficult to remember that sort of thing.
I wonder if it's some sort of adaptive mechanism, to prevent new sleep-deprived parents from completely losing the plot. Less daydreaming might mean more paying attention to this screaming thing that just fell out of you, and to every predator it's probably attracting from miles around.
I mostly stopped daydreaming at some point in my 20s too, after a fairly intense daydreaming life until then. Oh, and no kids yet :) so it could just be "life"
I wonder what people mean when they talk about daydreaming? I think perhaps it's an experience I don't have, or perhaps constantly have? I have pretty strong and untreated inattentive type ADHD so maybe my whole life is a daydream.
When you say you don't daydream, you mean you don't think about non task related things? How do you experience daydreams? Is it a nonvoluntary thing or is it more like actually going to sleep - deliberately entering a contemplative state where your mind wanders?
My interpretation of "daydreaming" is pre-nap or early into a nap (your nap, no kids involved) state where your mind wanders, but the experience is closer to dreaming than to thinking of random stuff.
The title of the article is more on the sensationalist side unfortunately, the actual paper gives a different view [1].
There are two parts worth quoting:
> Although cortical reductions sometimes reflect a process of neurodegeneration, they can also be a sign of refinement and specialization of neural circuits. Adolescence, for instance, is a life period characterized by the continued elimination of redundant synapses (i.e. synaptic pruning) which parallels cognitive and emotional development (Selemon 2013). In the context of the transition to parent-hood, several examples across human and non-human mammals show functional improvements after reductions in brain markers (Pawluski et al. 2022).
And:
> Although we found converging evidence of cortical reductions
across the two samples, a number of divergent findings also emerged. First, when disentangling the cortical volume reduction, Californian fathers displayed significant reductions in area and Spanish fathers in thickness. Changes in the area may reflect changes in the number of cells located between radial columns of the brain, while changes in thickness may reflect changes in the number of cells within ontogenic columns (Petanjek et al. 2011). Secondly, the volume of the dorsal attentional network, which supports goal-directed attention, was significantly reduced in Spanish fathers, while it did not show significant changes in Californian fathers. Combined with the default mode network,
this network may control sustained attention (Spreng et al. 2010, 2013), a behavior that is often required during childrearing. It is possible that these inconsistent results at the statistical level
may be due to the different scan timing windows or to cultural or behavioral differences. For example, due to more generous paternity leave policies in Spain
As someone who cares about such a thing and had no awareness of that, I would tend to disagree. Nytimes gets posted enough that I have encountered the pay wall, but the economist, I’d have had to guess. I also tried to look at the article and didn’t see the year when trying to open the truncated article, and do like to know that I have started reading something old. I just don’t really agree with your comment at all from almost any angle, but I don’t think either one of us has numbers to back up anything
The control group should still be sleep deprived for 6 months and see what that does to their brain.
As a father of a newborn never have I ever seen an HN comment so incisive and to the point.
As the father of a 9-year-old I have to warn you: the sleep deprivation does not end at 6 months.
As a father of multiple kids younger than that, I have a very different experience.
I’m sorry you’re going through this, but I’m slightly taken aback by this comment because this isn’t a common feature of having older children. The only parents I know having sleep deprivation problems have very young children. I have a lot of parent friends and I’ve never heard anyone claim that sleep deprivation continued until older ages, let alone that it’s common.
Yeah it moves from waking up in the middle of the night to having fights about going to bed and getting up in the morning...
Like I said, I have kids too. But enforcing boundaries and sleep schedules is lot different than claiming a decade of sleep depreciation. Kids sleep longer than we do as adults. I’m not losing sleep by getting them up in the morning unless I stay up late on my own, because we both have things to do in the morning.
My wife and I have a 7 month old and have learned that other parents do not like hearing about babies who sleep well. We don’t bring it up deliberately, but it comes up in conversation naturally sometimes. I have a lot of friends who say their 2+ year olds still don’t sleep through the night and say we’re lucky.
The luck attribution really downplays the rigidity of the schedule and routines my wife and I have kept for the little dude for MONTHS. It is the same schedule every single evening barring extenuating circumstances. But nobody wants to accept that we actually put effort in day after day to protect and foster the sleep schedule.
Right! I am very open about the sleep challenges I face with my children, but I also believe that the problem is due to lack of a rigid schedule. Routine is key not only for sleep, but general development. Unfortunately, I haven’t figured out how to get on the same page with my spouse about this.
You may be attributing way too much to what you are doing. And that will make it hard to accept the inevitable negative chance outcomes that will be entirely out of your control. I know parents whose first kid slept through the night at 3 months, and their second one not sleeping through the night at age 3. Skill issue? I don’t think so. And these people are such routine enforcers that they described themselves as “stubborn.” And then there is sickness. Amount of sun and physical activity the child gets during the day, which will depend on geography and the kid’s personality. Our 6 year old daughter sits down, and does a ton of art. Her 2 year old sister runs laps around the house for fun. Her favorite activity is running and slamming herself to the couch. Do you think these kids get similar physical activity? What if I told you they go to sleep around the same time and have no trouble waking up?
Edit: Forgot to mention night terrors. Doctor told us about it for the first one. Had no idea what he meant, and didn’t even care to look it up because it didn’t happen. Until the 2nd one hit 15 months or so. Imagine a barely 1 year old in an extremely confused state while asleep, sitting in her bed, screaming, sometimes hitting her head on the sides of the bed, getting more agitated if you pick her up. I read that it can last up to 30 minutes. Thank god ours were no longer than 5 minutes. It’s horrific when it happens for the first time. Straight out of the Exorcist movie.
What could a 6-24 month old possibly do from their bed in their room, to disturb your sleep in your bed in your room? Bring a trumpet to bed and badly play Miles Davis?
What happened to lights off, door closed, do whatever you want in complete darkness in the bed that you aren’t able to climb out of?
Cry? Scream? Many kids can climb out of cribs earlier than 24m.
Same, as the father of three children, I believe a lot of it has to do with sleep pattern conditioning. You are literally training minds to sleep on a rigid schedule to keep your own sanity. That implies sticking to rigid timing as much as possible and creating the optimal environment for success. E.g., correct lighting, air movement, sound (I highly recommend “Hey Siri, play Pure Meditation playlist”) at a low volume, and if you live in an otherwise particularly hectic environment, appropriately dosed and timed melatonin supplements. You reap the rewards of your own hard training work, or suffer the consequences of the lack thereof.
Way too much attribution to what you did vs chance outcomes.
Detailed it here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47988357
As a father of three, ages 4, 5.88, and 9 I can concur that the sleep deprivation doesn't improve much. Especially if they are neurodivergent.
as father of seven...
[dead]
Happy birthday to the youngest and oldest!
Wait, the 4 year old and 9 year old were both born today? Or is 5.88 a typo?
Or different architectures where floats can’t be represented?
The battlefield changes as kids age. It’s impossible to have any realistic discussion about sleep habits without discussing the elephant in the room. What is your device policy and how do you manage screen time, what your bedtime routine is (you better have one!) and how good you are at sticking to the timing on a daily basis.
Congrats and guard your sleep hygiene as much as possible (practically impossible advice to follow in most cases).
I went through a really rough period because of the lack of sleep. I noticed that hydration during that period was also challenging, so I wonder if this is related to the brain shrink effect.
https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/323595
Without all the oxytocin you get from hanging out with a newborn that would be awful
Completely correct. With all three of my children I was sleep deprived the first few months. But never in my life have I felt better.
For all the difficulties, children are rejuvenating and fun and provide purpose to life.
These brain chemical rewards apparently do not work on me, my (still young) kids provide no such rejuvenation. Luckily I'm a deep sleeper so I have no sleep deprivation problems.
Parents are supposed to sleep when the baby sleeps. Industrial work culture does not allow this. One of the many things leading the "Western" lifestyle to extinction.
The babies I know yet don't sleep like adults which means that you will be up at night at random hours that you are not used to and I think this has nothing to do with industrial work culture. That 6-8 hours of uninterrupted sleep is just a "dream" :).
I recall, as a twins dad, I did not have 2+ hours of uninterrupted sleep till they are 2 years old. (This depends on the kid though).
Prior to the industrial revolution polyphasic sleep was pretty standard:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyphasic_sleep
That article does not say whether polyphasic sleep was standard because parents were synchronizing with their babies.
More that babies are designed for the tribe/family/group to all share in the responsibility of caring for the baby.
Though feeding schedules early on are still grueling.
This is funny in how cut and dry it is. My friend, do you have kids?
It's my theory that crying evolved as a trait because it forces parents to go find some place safe lest a predator finds them, thus ensuring the helpless kid can grow in safe environments.
Note that there is no mention of sleep in there. That's bonus round if you get it.
Non western parents gets woken up in the night and sleep deprived ... and then have duties during the day while the baby sleeps
[flagged]
Why? Isn’t sleep deprivation a consequence of having a child?
They should be sleep deprived the same way for it to be a real control group, at least in the context of "becoming a father". Otherwise it's just "being sleep deprived for 6-12 months has X effect", which is much less informative. We already know being sleep deprived for long stretches is really bad.
but then you're not comparing what it is like to be father with what it like to not be a father.
such an experimental design would miss the forest for the trees.
Yes, so then that way you would know if there's something special about raising children that causes cerebellum shrinkage, or if it is just run of the mill sleep deprivation that causes it
I'd need to read the actual paper, but isn't poor sleep also correlated with "shrinkage" in the brain? And when you have a baby, sleep is one of those things that you don't typically get enough, or high enough quality, of.
Indeed I dont daydream anymore.
Wonder if these changes are more like jettisoning luxuries rather than getting dumber.
Father of a ten year old here; I definitely still daydream, and I think I did for most of the time I've been a father - but it's genuinely difficult to remember that sort of thing.
I also still daydream and have well before and after kids. If anything, sleep depravation with a newborn made it more vibrant and integrated.
I wonder if it's some sort of adaptive mechanism, to prevent new sleep-deprived parents from completely losing the plot. Less daydreaming might mean more paying attention to this screaming thing that just fell out of you, and to every predator it's probably attracting from miles around.
The brain switching away from "explore" mode.
Becoming a parent changes a lot of how you think, but to be honest spending time with my kids did more to reignite my explore mode.
Childlike curiosity is slightly contagious. It’s also fun to experience it by proxy through your kids seeing things for the first time.
I mostly stopped daydreaming at some point in my 20s too, after a fairly intense daydreaming life until then. Oh, and no kids yet :) so it could just be "life"
I wonder what people mean when they talk about daydreaming? I think perhaps it's an experience I don't have, or perhaps constantly have? I have pretty strong and untreated inattentive type ADHD so maybe my whole life is a daydream.
When you say you don't daydream, you mean you don't think about non task related things? How do you experience daydreams? Is it a nonvoluntary thing or is it more like actually going to sleep - deliberately entering a contemplative state where your mind wanders?
Yes, this thread made me realize I may not understand what daydreaming is.
Yeah, saying "I don't daydream" sounds like "I don't have thoughts" to me. Am I always daydreaming, or have I never daydreamed?
My interpretation of "daydreaming" is pre-nap or early into a nap (your nap, no kids involved) state where your mind wanders, but the experience is closer to dreaming than to thinking of random stuff.
https://archive.is/7LHeN
("This is your brain on kids!")
Evolution packed us full of control mechanisms that work against us (the individual) but in favor of the group.
* In favour of our genes.
Yes, but people might conflate that with the flawed idea that more evolved genes means a better individual.
For women: https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cy0d59e7wjlo
The title of the article is more on the sensationalist side unfortunately, the actual paper gives a different view [1].
There are two parts worth quoting:
> Although cortical reductions sometimes reflect a process of neurodegeneration, they can also be a sign of refinement and specialization of neural circuits. Adolescence, for instance, is a life period characterized by the continued elimination of redundant synapses (i.e. synaptic pruning) which parallels cognitive and emotional development (Selemon 2013). In the context of the transition to parent-hood, several examples across human and non-human mammals show functional improvements after reductions in brain markers (Pawluski et al. 2022).
And:
> Although we found converging evidence of cortical reductions across the two samples, a number of divergent findings also emerged. First, when disentangling the cortical volume reduction, Californian fathers displayed significant reductions in area and Spanish fathers in thickness. Changes in the area may reflect changes in the number of cells located between radial columns of the brain, while changes in thickness may reflect changes in the number of cells within ontogenic columns (Petanjek et al. 2011). Secondly, the volume of the dorsal attentional network, which supports goal-directed attention, was significantly reduced in Spanish fathers, while it did not show significant changes in Californian fathers. Combined with the default mode network, this network may control sustained attention (Spreng et al. 2010, 2013), a behavior that is often required during childrearing. It is possible that these inconsistent results at the statistical level may be due to the different scan timing windows or to cultural or behavioral differences. For example, due to more generous paternity leave policies in Spain
1: https://academic.oup.com/cercor/article/33/7/4156/6691667
Thank you!
more flawed[1] don't-have-kids "science" but then they complain about demographics.
[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47986349
And grows your heart.
It needs a (2002) and it is behind a paywall.
article says Oct 21st 2022 ?
Perhaps he's a father
2022
One would expect that the HN users who care about such things would already be aware of the paywall on economist.com
As someone who cares about such a thing and had no awareness of that, I would tend to disagree. Nytimes gets posted enough that I have encountered the pay wall, but the economist, I’d have had to guess. I also tried to look at the article and didn’t see the year when trying to open the truncated article, and do like to know that I have started reading something old. I just don’t really agree with your comment at all from almost any angle, but I don’t think either one of us has numbers to back up anything