Wow. Hopefully, Ternus will bring what he brought to Apple's hardware to their software. The hardware is leaps and bounds ahead of anything else, but their software gets worse and worse every generation. I'm glad to hear this.
Ternus recently gave an interview where he said this about the initial flop of Apple Maps:
> “When we started out with maps, it was an ambitious undertaking. It was bumpy,” said Ternus. “But the team had just been over the years just pushing and pushing and pushing. And Apple Maps today is absolutely amazing. If you have the vision and you're persistent and you keep working at it, you can take something you know that has a rocky start and turn it into something great.”
Here's hoping he recognizes that Apple's current generation of software is in the "rocky start" phase, not the "pushing and pushing" phase and definitely not the "absolutely amazing" phase. Time will tell...
There's some irony there in that the whole maps fiasco lead to firing of Forstall which allowed Ive to become head of design, which basically led to the current state of macOS design.
I do wish that some day someone will tell the story of what happened during that time. Maps was bad at launch yes, but it also wouldn't get better without people contributing more data, and the fact that it took a decade to slowly improve implies that there's nothing anyone could have done to get it right "off the bat". It still feels to me Forstall was set up as the fall guy, especially considering no one was fired for antennagate.
Reportedly, Forstall wasn’t liked by the other senior execs but was kept “safe” as Jobs’ protégé, they thought alike and shared the love for skeuomorphism design. Ive in particular disliked Forstall, and Tim Cook made a choice.
He produces Broadway shows these days. Never say never but that kind of thing screams an “I’ve got all the cash I need, now I’m following my passions” mindset. You certainly don’t do it for the money…
The more abstract the “wealth” becomes the less it means in practical terms. The class dynamics around money mostly has to do with the State actively preserving and protecting claims over assets. If that same wealth becomes sufficiently concentrated with an overclass that it leeches away the competence and legitimacy of the State, then the underclass has other means of correcting the gap and establishing a more sustainable equilibrium.
The traditional means of reestablishing equilibrium are becoming more and more infeasible as state defenses and tactics improve. We are rapidly approaching a time when the asymmetric attacks on state protections traditionally used are less effective than the information asymmetry that the state can enforce. Hong Kong is a great example of these defenses leveraged effectively.
It’s possible, but I know people felt the same during prior technological revolutions like the advent of broadcast media (which fascist movements took too with great enthusiasm). I think people are clever, we learn from every failure and adapt.
you hit the nail on the head. the less wealthy a government the more poor its poorest citizens are because it doesn’t have the money to invest in their wellbeing. the solution has and always will be taxes
> Maps was bad at launch yes, but it also wouldn't get better without people contributing more data, and the fact that it took a decade to slowly improve implies that there's nothing anyone could have done to get it right "off the bat".
Absolutely.
Was the choice to release way way way too early the right choice in the end? Needed telemetry, or even more time, to beat Google? Also taking the data from Google must have had significant ramifications.
Perhaps that is the case in the US, but in Poland, I haven't had a single app guide me into the literal bushes as many times as Apple Maps does. The straw that broke the camel's back was when, I shit you not, the navigation aspect literally expected me to drive through a lake.
The interface and the direction instructions on Apple Maps are way ahead of Google Maps. The app performance is also much smoother / snappier, it connects to the car instantly and reliably, where with Android Auto it’been always waiting and pain. But the accuracy of maps is indeed worse.
However my biggest gripe with Apple Maps in Poland is that Siri does not understand Polish and cannot be told to navigate to a Polish address. It just can’t understand the street and city names :(
Btw: I haven’t counted the times Google Maps wanted me to go through the worst possible traffic jam (where the traffic jam was not visible on the map) or a closed road. I guess it just happens with every navigation system that errors happen.
I have my iPhone set up in a way where I have "Apple Intelligence" and that, somehow, manages to pick up Polish VERY well. Might want to try it. Never have expected "play "Oddałbym" by Slums Attack from Spotify" to work - and yet it did first try, way better than any attempt I made on Google Assistant in the past decade.
The pronounciations, though, are indeed something that leaves no other option but to laugh. Expect "Rogozińska" (ruh-goh-tzeen-ska?), recieve something I fail to comprehend :-)
This may just be my bubble, but even among my iPhone-owning friends, I haven't seen a single person use Apple Maps in Europe, so I wouldn't be surprised if the efforts to improve the map data have been more focused on the US.
German here and me and my wife almost exclusively use Apple Maps, mainly because it looks and feels nicer. The differences in navigation are miniscule, but if we want to really check the traffic before we start we do a quick glance at Google maps.
One difference in navigation we noticed is, that Apple Maps gives some small local streets - those just one revel above "Feldwege" (agricultural/forestry roads) - more weight than they should have. They are not really "single track" (almost unheard of in Germany) but come close, with no lane delineation dashes, etc.
Really depends on where you are in Europe. Out here in the boonies of Portugal, it’s excellent if you’re driving a 4x4 pickup truck, which is the only vehicle of mine I use it with, as it picks very direct routes, which often involve ridiculously steep muddy dirt tracks, very narrow bridges, and generally just very underused farm tracks.
I tried using it in Bosnia, once, and it decided to use an abandoned airfield landing strip as a shortcut. Wild stuff.
This is my exact experience, but with Google Maps. Constantly suggesting gravel (or worse) side roads instead of highways and hallucinating multiple turn lanes etc on a country road about 1 car wide. It's been a few years, but I still remember the time I was in Berlin and buses didn't run due to bad weather, but I had a flight to catch so I had to walk to the Tegel airport and the route Google maps recommended ended up being quite an adventure, having to crawl through a hole in a linked fence on an unlit dead-end road next to the airport.
No, and as far as I know, they don't say. But a lot of their not-direct-from-OSM map data comes from TomTom, which also ingests OSM. There's a lot of OSM in Apple Maps, as there is in most other non-Googly mapping apps.
Apple Maps is absolutely very late to the game when it comes to road closures. Google Maps somehow always knows which roads are closed, even if for a few minutes.
Apple Maps does have the ability to make the same reports, but its super buried so I doubt many people even know its possible, let alone where to go to do it.
I changed to it for car navigation. It's a less cluttered interface and integrates better with voice control than Google maps. I still use Google to find out what's around me in a city, which is probably where the money is.
I'm from Europe and I use it 99% of the time. I find the UI in satnav mode much better (cleaner and readable) than the one Google Maps has. The only time I use Google Maps is when I really want to find something that's not in Apple Maps or when I want to read reviews without fumbling with the web browser.
The reason is that Google are highly commercialized first on thier maps, while Apple focused on major markets. E.g. I can remember the times like 2017, when Apple maps was as rocky as possible, but they were working fine in Shenzhen with matching chines to transcriptions, while Google maps sucked at scale there.
I've used it quite a lot in Europe - specifically for walking directions in cities. I prefer Apple Maps for walking directions, especially paired with the watch - the data is good and the UX with the watch is excellent.
I believe Apple Maps uses Open Street Map data for the mapping, which it augments with its own data collection. So it shouldn’t be worse than other vendors, like TomTom, who use the same dataset. Google has its own map data that’s probably better than OSM, but I think it probably has the same bias of USA + large international metros focus as Apple.
Google Maps is definitely still a little better but I find the delta is nowhere near as wide as it used to be. The main problem with Apple Maps I find today is that their data on business listings and locations tends to be a little older than Google’s, sometimes even a year or more out of date. So if a business or meeting place you’re trying to get to has moved recently you can wind up in the wrong spot.
I want to use Apple Maps instead of Google's apps, I'm in Canada.
Apple have been promising bicycle support in Canada since iOS 14. Bike paths and itineraries still aren't there.
It's the same with public transit, which is unsynchronized or unavailable depending on the city.
Apple Maps will show business informations and schedules, but only pull information from Yelp, which no one here uses. The app will guide you to businesses that have closed or moved out, and will show you photos and menus that date 5+ years.
It's not an issue of software quality unfortunately, but one of negligence on the service side.
Here in the north east of Scotland, I have to switch back and forth between Google Maps and Apple Maps. Apple Maps provides vastly superior residential navigation (it understands that many houses only have names, not numbers, and knows what those names are), but commercial information (where to find a café, are they open, etc.) is often incomplete or outright missing. It seems like Apple have coughed up for POI licensing from OS Maps or similar, but they're limited to whatever business information they can get from Yelp.
yeah, Apple maps isnt so good for tourist info, at least once you leave the big cities. I just use the web version of google maps if Im out travelling somewhere remote
My wife used Apple Maps for a while here in the UK and driving in Europe. The results varied between amusing and traumatic. No issues ever with Google Maps since she swapped (but I know from experience it's not perfect). Apple maps would send her over tertiary roads through mountain passes that were snowed out, instead of salted/gritted primary roads, would show major highway junctions wildly (dangerously) inaccurately and showed areas that had lots of properly mettled roads as open countryside with no thoroughfares at all.
I can’t reply to sibling comment, but the Apple Maps native integration in the Apple ecosystem is far far ahead of Google’s. Their CarPlay, Watch, notifications, island etc integration shows how all apps should feel, but not even Google can be bothered to have the integration right.
to be frank, I have a feeling that Google has more / better data.
Well, back in the days, it took Apple 3 years to fix umlauts in PDF documents with VoiceOver. It is pretty much normal that you're being treated as a second-class user if you are not residing in the US. It is a form of digital colonialism. Learn english, move to the US, or suffer the death of a thausand cuts.
Ireland, on Apple Maps for the past decade more or less. Works fine. Once it led me to the wrong place because someone “contributed” that information to the map.
The source was my experience living with Japanese friends in Japan for around a month. This was, however, quite a few years ago. I believe that the complexity of the Japanese street naming system may have had something to do with it.
I use it all the time, because its driving directions interface is so much better than Google, it's not even funny. But it is overall worse than Google Maps.
And they are planning to make it even worse with ads, so.
So does my father - but then again, it is important to remember the context. It's not going to be an issue if you only drive in big cities or on main roads. The only time I really need to use GPS to navigate is going out into the complete boonies, and Waze does that expertly. Apple Maps, meanwhile, helps me remember my Mercedes' stock navigation, which is forever locked in 2011 and runs in 256 colors. :-)
I kind of have the opposite experience, and really only use maps to find streets within the city limits. The country is easy to navigate with the road signs you see along the way, and it's more enjoyable to navigate that way than following a nagging app.
We might be kind of lucky in New Zealand with the yellow AA signposts at every intersection in the country telling you the nearest towns/communities and their distances in every direction.
I made the mistake of trusting Google Maps with driving directions in Sicily, and it always sent me down tiny single lane (but two way) roads because they were "better" by the algorithm. That taught me to trust my gut and follow the highways/main roads rather than use any shortcuts that an algorithm can conjure up. (I'm sure this has relevance in the age of LLMs).
Well, even generally much better Google maps sometimes tries to force me through unpaved field roads with unavoidable damage to normal cars. Or create absolutely ridiculous 'shortcuts' that save 5 metres but I should exit busy main road to join it again 100m later, spending few minutes trying to join back. Or lead me through forbidden/one way roads from wrong direction that are like that permanently since forever.
Generally they are fine, but not literally in every aspect in every place, Europe or not.
Years ago I went to WWDC, to the sessions where you could talk to specialists from their different libraries. I talked to someone high up in maps and location services, reporting an issue we were consistently seeing in geolocation at a particular spot in the world. They effectively told me they didn’t believe me and that it works fine for them.
Around here (Long Island, New York, USA), it’s better than Google Maps. I get to compare a lot, because I have a friend that uses GM, and constantly sends me Google Maps universal links.
I hear that it is a lot less effective in rural areas, though, and I think Google Street View is better than the Apple variant.
Apple Maps only works well in North America, possibly just the US. The same way a lot of happy paths in Apple products are designed for California/Single Culture/Single Language/Single Residence.
I’m sure it’s amazing in California or the US. So often I think how much better products would be if the people responsible would have to use them for a week outside of the happy path.
Example: Taking the airport train instead of a private driver and realizing there’s no luggage racks, staying in a regular hotel room and realizing there’s no light in front of the mirror, only behind you. So many examples like that on a daily basis.
Another huge exemple : in most big cities in Europe you have special parking lots around big public transit hubs outside of the city where you can park for free as long as you continue your journey by public transit.
In a lot of cities, that’s either the fastest or the most comfortable way to go somewhere in the city when you come from the outside.
Not any single navigation app support this (tbf, the few European ones don’t support it either)
There was a Not Just Bikes video about how Google Maps is optimised for driving where it pretty much actively hides the biggest walking routes and promotes roads for driving by making them bigger. Useful in the USA for sure but actively harmful in Europe, given that you're more likely to plan a route by which roads you can see, and unless you know what to look for you're not going to find them easily.
Yes. Unfortunately transit between public transit is always walking. No options to take a first part by bike or car, or folding bikes for intermediate hops.
The long tail of user desires is loooong. For example "I want to take transit, but please exclude transit options where I cannot take my non-folding bicycle". Or "I don't have a raincoat, suggest only bus stops with a roof, oh and by the way I don't like the uncomfortable seats on the purple line but will take it if there is no other way".
I think LLM's with access to lots of personal data and the ability to scout the web might solve all these use cases in one fell swoop, rather than trying to design a user interface with buttons, algorithms and data sources for every obscure use case.
Is it that long tail? Biking and riding are supported in most planners already. Park and ride, or kiss and ride, are well known concepts around the world. It seems like a straightforward extension of what already exists.
In Germany it's often not IN cities, but around. Example for Frankfurt:
The's a metro ("S-Bahn") going north up to Friedberg/Hessen. Friedberg is the capital of the country. But there's no free "Park & Ride" there. Two stations towards Frankfurt you are in village called Wöllstadt. And there you have a free Park & Ride. More south some other village, no P&R. But then again in Bad Vilbel you have one.
Is however P&R + public tansport the fastest way to Frankfurt? That depends.
First, the Wöllstadt P&R isn't easily accessible from the Autobahn, or not even from the B3, which goes around Wöllstadt. And even when it went through it some years ago, it was several turn-left turn-rights through small streets.
And then the S6 only drives every 30 minutes to Frankfurt. It's supposed to change once they double the train tracks, but that will change. On top of it: metro lines don't have precedence, the quick trains like ICE have. So the S-Bahn more often than not waits until a faster train passes.
If it isn't between 7-9 in the morning, you're actually faster by car in Frankfurt than by public transport ... So the P&R is quite helpful for people living in the neighboring villages: they go by car to Wöllstadt, park there for free, commute to Frankfurt by metro. And that traffic jam free ... but not necessarily fast. And since parking in Frankfurt usually comes with a price tag, it's also a bit cheaper.
Well at least on NRW, I can say that there are enough P&R around here.
However compared with European countries like Portugal, this is a complete different reality.
This was my main point, because there are these "in Europe public transport is so great" remarks, yes it is, provided one is lucky to be on the right parts of Europe, as you also kind of refer to by your no all roses scenario.
To get to my home you take an exit off a toll road and where the exit splits continuing straight or going to the right you continue straight to a stop light where you take a left and in 1/4 mile take a right into my neighborhood. Apple Maps will tell you to go to the right instead of going straight merging on the road and continuing through 2 stop lights, taking a u-turn at a 3rd light and then backtracking to take the right into my neighborhood. Google Maps gives the correct directions.
In the closest major city Apple Maps will give directions instructing you to perform u-turns on streets where u-turns are legal but practically impossible. Google Maps will instead correctly direct you so such risky u-turns are not needed and you actually arrive quicker.
That is just two examples. I have many more I could provide.
My favorite Apple example of this is that when the Apple Watch notices that you're walking/running/biking and asks if you want to start a workout, for some reason you cannot accept it with the double-tap-your-fingers gesture. Which is fine if it's warm outside...but when it's winter in Minnesota, if I want to activate it I have to take one of my gloves off, pull up my sleeves, and put the gloves back on, while bitching about how nobody designing the watch lives in a cold climate. (Especially when I'm on a bike. Riding no-hands in the snow is not a smart idea.)
Another example: When taking HOV and the map asks you if you want HOV enabled, there are no options I can force the navigation to take me to the nearest HOV lane.
If it happens to be there, it will say to use it, but I can't say "Route me to the nearest HOV entrance" because I prefer it even if it's 1 minute slower.
You’re right. But your statement was that no product worth using is bug free. I said that no software exists that is without bugs. Your statement uses the presence of bugs to indicate a product is worth using. But since all software has bugs, that applies to every product ever made. It doesn’t have any discriminating power. So it’s not fallacious on its face but it’s not useful either, and that’s what I was trying to point out.
> Your statement uses the presence of bugs to indicate a product is worth using.
This is not correct; "If a product is worth using, then it has bugs." (P→Q) does not imply its converse "If a product has bugs, then it is worth using." (Q→P). Buginess is presented as a necessary condition of being worth using, not a sufficient one.
It does, however, imply "If a product has no bugs, then it is not worth using.".
To be clear, my statement is that "No product worth using is bug free" (which is what dpark said) does not mean the same as "all bug free products are worth using" (which is what your response to dpark implied).
That was exactly my point. The presence of bugs in a product (in this case Apple Maps) does not mean it should not ship. “No open bugs” cannot be the criteria for whether a product is ready to ship.
That has not been my experience, I've got a Honda CB125F which uses Apple Maps for their on screen navigation.
I live in Lisbon and I wanted to Almada which is directly South from Lisbon. For reasons beyond me, Apple Maps kept telling me to go North and North and North, I tried restarting the navigation multiple times, but in the end I had to switch to Google Maps which did mean that I didn't have on screen navigation, only the audio ones, but at least it immediately told me to go South.
It’s gotten a lot better, but I still find the address database better in Google Maps, which helps when you have only a fragment of an address. I also find that the Apple Maps database has a lot of roads that read the same. For instance, in Texas where I live, we have a lot of “Ranch Roads” that are numbered. Think of them like state highways in other state (which we also have; don’t ask). For whatever reason, most of the Ranch Roads are spoken by Maps as “Ranch Road,” not with the number. So, if you have a spot where multiple Ranch Roads intersect, Maps will just say “turn left on Ranch Road” instead of “turn left on Ranch Road 123.” It’s tremendous annoying. In another state, imagine it saying “turn left on Interstate,” without a number. Anyway, Google Maps does better.
I used to work to resolve addressing disputes and google just doesn't expose (maybe even store) the relevant information for a lot of parcels of land.
It’s all available freely from the government in simple formats but for Joe Public they don’t know that much less how to access it and it’s the case that technicians on the ground don’t always have it in their SOP either. Google has a level of market dominance that means their errors can be, for a small individual or over an aggregation of small individuals, costly.
Yep, they all have flaws. I just fine that when I want to drive somewhere, Google does better for me than Apple, though certainly Apple has improved a lot recently.
actually a sign of our times that we can gripe about this. i remember how annoying it was to rent a car on a business trip without anything other than a road atlas. you had to dedicate a fair bit of cognitive load you really didnt want to use.
Indeed. I remember flying to Atlanta and arriving at midnight. I rented a car and had to try to find my hotel in the dark with one of those one-page maps the rental car company had. So, yea, we’ve come a long way for the better.
In the 80s I rented a car from the Minneapolis airport. Drove to my hotel visually navigating with respect to the tall buildings of downtown. Eventually realizing I was in St Paul.
I was at a small conference north of San Diego and thought I could find my way back to the airport for an early flight. I did but not before making a U-turn at the Mexican border. My excuse is the darkness (and of course no gps at the time).
Google Maps often picks the non-idiomatic thing. It'll say the road name when no sign uses that, and it's a US highway that you have been following for a while. Or it will tell you the state highway number when it is a major named artery, and nobody knows that it is a state highway at that point or uses the highway number. This makes it hard to know if it is carrying you along on the same route or if it has come up with one of its weird shortcuts to save 1 minute.
It has absolutely no clue about roundabouts. On a journey in England or France on a road that has a roundabout every mile it will constantly spam you with "take the second exit onto wailing street" every minute, when a human would say "go straight at the next 20 roundabouts staying on the A38".
I once printed out a directions from an online map that contained "pass straight over the next fourteen roundabouts" (I think it was on the way into Reading). Lose count, and you are stuffed. I much prefer a turn-by-turn approach.
You're not wrong that it does that, but that's kinda what I'd expect. Maybe because I'm used to it, but if there's a potential turn it'll say "keep right" or "keep left". So it makes sense to me that it says "second exit".
"Straight" can be ambiguous, second exit isn't. Maybe it's because I'm terrible with directions and hate driving, but I like the constant feedback that I'm going the right way.
Here in Australia Apple Maps names everywhere by local council, which isn’t used at all, we use localities. I have reported this as a bug repeatedly but they just keep at it.
It just means nothing here except who you pay to collect the bins.
I hate how Google scrapes business addresses so you get like "There's a grocery store X here" but actually that's just their corporate office building. I see that all the time. Machines just don't know.
On macOS there are so many basic things you’d want to do - share itineraries, annotate places, keep lists of things, but there’s not even a document concept. With the exception of guides, anything you do is ephemeral. It’s excellent at planning a route, but doing anything with that route, including getting back to it later is useless.
I primarily use Apple maps and bounce back to google sometimes because I think the browser experience is so much better and it is faster to just type my terms right into ironically safari. Every time I do I think it is still simpler and snappier. Especially true if I have recently tried to use the MacOS maps app… that never behaves how I would imagine it should if I go beyond a simple location search. There are things about the ios app that make me crazy too. No qualms about the maps themselves these days.
Just a week ago I could still create a Google Docs "map" document, add spots, share it with friends who could collaborate from any (incl. non-Apple) device... It's just a pain to do this with Apple Maps compared to how easy and straightforward it is with Google Maps. You can also still import desktop Google Earth bookmark files.
Oh I remember this quote. I thought it was quite a good one because he’s right. At least in the US, apple maps is better than google maps for most purposes.
Apple software is unusable in india, no one uses it coz it has terrible data and thus the data never gets changed coz no one uses it.
i have gotten wrong timings for gyms, wrong routes, it won't detect my home address from my contacts etc etc
always find it funny when americans say "it's good now", no brother they fixed all the glitches in states it's still launch apple maps trash in india
What is he smoking?!? Apple Maps was fine a few years ago, but these days it routes me to the wrong place about as often as organic maps, and siri is completely broken. It renders a blue dot showing where I am, and responds “I do not know where you are”.
Also, the UI for it keeps getting more cluttered, and they announced that in-map ads are coming Q2-3 2026.
Software people, in my very direct experience, are terrible at hardware... While in jest, I do think most software engineer's understanding of hardware abstractions is pretty poor and does disservice to the hardware they run on.
As a software dev that started at a hardware focused company... I don't think it need be in jest, nor need be offensive? Hardware and software are different disciplines, even when they do overlap in embedded. It just seems to me - having been at a hardware company that failed to pivot to software, and went out of business (while a new competitor, software first, became Zoom), that the mindset is too different. Hardware requires far more planning; software far faster iteration. In software too much planning is a death sentence. In hardware insufficient planning is a death sentence. I think a single person absolutely could do both well but in my relatively basic estimation, I don't see it being a common trait. Hardware is cool and impressive, but I could never do it. And in my experience, many of the hardware folks I know don't seem to like how software development works either.
I don't think it means anything for this particular move; good leaders know what they know and what they don't know; they know how to motivate and select the right people, they know what to delegate and what to control. Having a track record of success of any kind is IMHO always the best start. I'm excited to see what kind of changes the transition from an operations person to a more technical leader may bring. Especially given how awesome Apple's hardware has consistently been.
Generally speaking, I think both are true. Most people seem to have an affinity for either hardware or software, but rarely for both. Those who do are extremely unique. I don't mean that as an insult to anyone, just as an observatin having worked in both (and personally am much better at software than hardware, even though I enjoy both).
And then there is IC versus leadership. They're opposites. Lead times and supply chains are a headache in hardware, but tangible deadlines are great for keeping the project grounded. In software you have to invent your own discipline to keep the team on pace and bend over backwards to explain to physical-minded stakeholders why you can't build something with no lead times overnight.
My experience studying 'Computing and Electronics' - a combined degree - was that we could get practically any extensions or leniency we wanted by blaming the other specialism. To each the other was mistrusted and magic.
Hardware and software have VERY different deployment cost functions and lifecycles. Having "affinity" for one requires a mindset not really suitable for the other and being able to juggle mindsets, especially short vs long term focus is rare in itself.
I agree - at university there were software people and hardware people and a small number who studied mechatronics (hardware and software). But even the mechatronic people were really hardware people who just tolerated software.
I find both interesting but have been working in software for over a decade now.
Honestly, the thing that pushed me into software dev was the fact that hardware tools were absolutely garbage. Verilog felt like a joke of a language designed to torment rather than help the user.
Verilog is not the best and that’s not even the worst part - tools like ISE/Vivado and Quartus are even worse!
It’s really amazing that at least there are some fully open flows for FPGAs these days, unfortunately they don’t support system Verilog. (I think this is still the case?)
Yeah at university we had to do some hardware stuff in our software course. I know there were better debug tools available as some students purchased them but playing with microprocessors was no fun.
I've worked for 40+ years with a hardware guy and he's great at software, for one reason: attention to detail. In hardware, you have to test, test and test. There's no "fixed it later with a patch" (for the most part).
I don't have a lot of samples, just one. So, YMMV.
Well, and aspect of hardware dev that lacks in software dev is testing. A mistake in hardware is much harder to correct once it leaves the factory vs a mistake in software. A large portion of hardware budget is ultimately spent on QA.
I have to think some of that attitude would be good for apple's software division.
It's not as if ternus will be writing code directly, he's managing managers. Hopefully that means he'll demand and budget more for QA.
In many cases, yes, but it really depends a lot on the person. I have a computer hardware degree but have led both software and UX teams. If you have a hardware background, you’re going to have to acquire a software background before you can lead software teams. What you can’t do is lead a software team like a hardware team (or vice versa).
Ternus is foremost a manager though. Maybe he is also a hardware guy and that's the secret behind the success he had with Apple's hardware team, but I hope it's transferable to getting the most out of the software teams too.
This is actually one thing I think will be great as AI coding agents get better. Companies whose main expertise is hardware might start producing better software.
There are so many little bugs in consumer-facing apps that hit the ‘sweet’ spot of being incredible little annoyances that just aren’t worth putting an engineer on for a week to fix, but which are totally worth having an engineer throw an agent onto them.
I find that the code AI likes to write actually checks for “errors” too often when often you wouldn’t even want to do that. You don’t need to check every dictionary access and come up with a default value for example
This is actually one thing I think will be great as AI coding agents get better. Companies whose main expertise is code reviewing might start producing better software.
I really hope they fire whoever is in charge of Liquid Glass. Whoever is leading Apple software has run out of ideas. Of all the countless things they could be doing in software, we got the useless Liquid Glass refactor.
i was getting annoyed at the state of shadcn/daisyui/the other six trillion ui patterns that have spawned since the abomination known as materialui and i actually realized liquid glass is the only meaningful step away from that we've seen in quite a long time.
it's still not quite my tempo, looks downright silly in many places, but it has grown on me just a smidge, and i think i'd receive it a little better if it wasn't fundamentally more intensive to render. i think that's a line i can't respect and it feels like a step backwards.
i don't want to wax nostalgic about windows 98 era ui's or the design patterns i see with a lot of qt apps either, like they are imo kind of ugly to me too. but i appreciated the consistency back in the 98 era, and i think a ui that restored 3d beveled looking components, were somewhat expressive but consistent is what i want.
but the world is different now. things like flutter that give people a canvas and let them ground up their entire design language undoubtedly mean consistency can only exist within an entity's control, there likely will never be a unified agreed-upon set of ui standards that span industries and personal computing and different stacks anymore. kinda amusing that improved tooling and frameworks has just resulted in a wild west of user interface design.
Regardless of your opinion of its present iteration, the whole push is for their AR/VR layered UI/UX shift - not just another random redesign they threw at the wall.
Yes, the idea seems to be to force app developers to support transparency so that any future iGlasses device has a good supply of apps from day one (contrary to what happened with Vision Pro).
Apple used to insist that different types of devices require different UI principles. This seems all the more true for a transparent device that you wear on your face while moving around trying not to bump into physical objects.
But we'll see. Perhaps the right level of transparency is situational. If you sit down with iGlasses using them as a screen you might want to reduce transparency while increasing it when you're moving around outdoors. Adjusting transparency could become as routine as adjusting audio volume.
AR will be extremely useful for real world jobs where people deal with physical reality. As opposed to office jobs, where people deal with computers and communication.
Having blueprints and 3D models and info overlayed onto what you see in the real world can be very useful for farming, construction, infrastructure, and much more. Not to mention military application.
My only hope, however unlikely, is that Apple will recognise that power users, engineers and gamers would really really appreciate running Linux on Macs and they write some drivers for it.
There are literally no PC laptops with the quality or hardware offered by even the cheapest MacBook - the software, while fine for general consumers, creators, and some developer workloads, tragically holds back its potential something fierce.
I doubt we'll see it, but one thing I'd really like is for them to release cleaner drivers or specs for the hardware in Intel Macs. Now that they're committed to removing Intel support from the OS, it would be really nice not to consign all of that functional, high-performing hardware to the bin.
At the moment, I have a 2018 Mac Mini with a 12-core i7 and 64GB of RAM that is more limited in OS choice and hardware support than the 2012 Mac Mini sitting next to it, because the inner workings of the T2 chipset in particular and various other components have to be reverse-engineered bit by bit.
Why would Apple writing some Linux drivers wipe billions from its share price? You can already install Linux on a Mac if you really want to. Back in the day, you used to be able to install Windows on an (Intel) Mac, and that didn’t seem to have any such effect.
No, but I think it’s unlikely that Apple actually has this information in a format that it could easily publicly release. They aren’t going to make any special effort to make Linux on Mac easier, but they also aren’t actively blocking it.
Well, I was more talking about the fact that you can still install Windows 11 on an Intel Mac right now; the drivers are still there for those few Intel macs still supported.
As for Windows on ARM, I'd bet that if Microsoft had managed to figure out their own product, Apple might have been tempted to support it. I mean why go through all the trouble of developing the most advanced firmware on the planet to support a fully secure macOS next to an unsecured OS if you do nothing with it?
Why would it wipe billions from their share price? Both Linux and Windows were available on Mac hardware prior to Apple Silicon.
If I play devil's advocate, the only reason I could think of is that supporting Linux signals to investors that Apple is offering a key to bypass their API moat, perhaps sacrificing a longer term vision of vendor lock-in.
By contrast, I can imagine investors would get upset if the iPhone had an unlocked bootloader and allowed Android to be installed - but that's because the App Store is a significant revenue stream for Apple. I don't think there is a parallel on MacOS that investors could point to as being upsetting.
If anything, optional support for Linux would lift the market cap for Mac hardware as it would close the only pull that other laptop vendors previously enjoyed.
In reality though, just like is historically true, 99% of people would continue to use MacOS. Only SWEs, enthusiasts, gamers and some number of Windows refugees would pick Linux.
Though I am 100% behind legislating Linux support - EU are you listening?
Apple went out of its way to make Linux on Mac a reality. They did a lot to allow third-party OSes when Apple Silicon came out, it's up to the Linux community to do the rest.
There were a couple of people (the Asahi team) that made this work for M1, but as I understand it, the effort has stalled since. This just goes to show how few people truly care.
Apple helped by not locking the bootloader. I'd don't know if I'd call that going out of their way to make Linux a reality.
If they wanted to go out of their way, they could spend a weekend writing Linux drivers - Apple have written Windows drivers in the past, so it's not unprecedented.
I believe the real hurdle is that Linux doesn't do well with modular (closed source) drivers. Unlike Windows, drivers can't practically be added to a kernel, they must be compiled into it.
Apple would not want to make their drivers open source or so they would want to distribute their drivers as binary blobs.
That would necessitate either maintaining an Apple-fork of the Linux kernel with their drivers hidden within it, or contributing shims to upstream Linux + binary blob drivers.
If they wanted to help, the bare minimum would be to publish documentation on their hardware so drivers could be written without reverse engineering from schematics and microscope photos.
> This just goes to show how few people truly care.
Most people just want to sit down and eat a nice meal. They don't want to go through all the difficult back breaking work of farming, animal husbandry or fishing/hunting to eat.
That is how I look at people writing OS drivers and core components. It's boring back breaking work no one wants to think about. People pine for it, even romanticize about it. But the fact is that it's dirty annoying work and I have never heard anyone thanking the farmer for the meal they just ate. Yet we still have farmers. Few, yet they exist.
Why would it? Shareholders of the major stocks are generally vibes-based, and I'm sure that if Apple undertook that, they would find a way to build hype around it.
The Mac has never been more popular in its 40 year history than it is now. The recently released MacBook Neo broke all previous Mac sales records. Needing to sell more Macs isn't an issue these days.
i can think of absolutely zero publicly traded company boards of this size that would opt for "we're already selling enough devices, we know there's more demand we can't meet, let's not scale up we're really happy with these numbers"
Due to the RAM shortages, Apple isn't able to meet demand as it is.
Apple's Mac revenue last fiscal year was $33.7 billion. I suspect the number of Linux users that might buy a Mac if it could run Linux natively is probably in rounding error territory.
Apple has been around for 50 years and has a market-cap of around $4 trillion. All without supporting Linux. I think they're okay with that.
Linux on Mac is absolutely a reality [1], and Apple specifically supported it by deliberately leaving a documented/supported mechanism for another OS kernel to be loaded.
I don't want to take away from the hard work put in by the Asahi project because it is amazing.
Linux on Apple Silicon is not a reality on my M5 Pro. I run Asahi on my M1 Pro, but I cannot use my USB-C dock with it and, while amazing, cannot practically use the GPU for gaming or local LLMs.
This limits my ability to practically use it for work and play.
the bulk of their sales is, in fact, hardware sales. there is a strong case to be made that such developments wouldn't land people in squarely linux-as-the-only-OS-on-the-device territory either, but rather dual boot ie those users also participate in the walled garden on the mac os side. we've seen this before in the intel mac era.
I also hope they recognize power users it’s very limited customization they offer unlike Linux and windows . The only thing holding them back is their software . If they could try make games compatible or introduce more customization options and more options other than Xcode for swift it would be the most amazing OS
ha, i use both. i don't even need to write any platitudes on if linux came to mac, utm or parallels has linux going at near native speed actually happier than it runs on my thinkpad t. i get to enjoy all worlds on my mac and its probably the best multi-target development environment ive ever had, and the hardware is still leagues above literally anything else on the market. dont get me wrong i want more options, im still just waiting for options that deserve to be in this convo. i have zero allegiances to who made it, whoever comes forward with the best hardware gets my money. and my orgs money since i pick the teams hardware.
I also have a Thinkpad, but an X1. I'd trade it and my first-born child to get to run Linux on a modern MacBook.
No offense to Lenovo, it's a great laptop. But Apples build quality is on another level, plus if I want to run local LLMs, AFAIK there is no better option.
There's no way I'm going back to macOS though, that shit was bad 5 years ago when I switched and it sounds like it's gotten way worse.
Same here. I've had two generations of X1, my latest one (laptop, not child) is almost 5 years old and I honestly don't know which hardware to pick next in order to run Linux.
At work I have an M4Max 128G, and it's hard to beat that amount of compute, with that build quality.
When I bought a Macbook M1 years ago, then was forced to switch back to a PC and wanted to have something similar in quality - I realized there's NOTHING that compares at ANY price point, let alone $1000.
I've got the smallest version of the m1 macbook air when they came out. It's still my daily driver when I'm not on my corporate T14 gen 6 I7 with 32gb of ram, and while it no longer outperforms my corporate computer it keeps up well enough while being cold to the touch and noiseless. It's also significantly lighter and has better battery life despite being old, though corporate does kill a lot of that on the pc.
Not being able to feel that it's turned on is basically the primary feature of a laptop for me. I've wanted to switch my personal device to linux for a while, but there just... isn't... one. I know I could run linux on the macbook, but the point here is that there is nothing which compares, not even at higher prices.
I switched from M1 MBP to Asus Zenbook S16 with Ryzen HX370. A bit better performance, better screen, design, comparable battery, ok keyboard... I switched mostly because I was missing my previous Linux setup. But that was only possible several years afterwards, and if you try to compare it to the M5 Pro...
I'm hoping that they'll finally ditch the sleazy anti-consumer tactics, and just focus on providing real value through real quality. They're definitely in a position where they can do so.
Right to repair with aftermarket parts and app installs from any source without Apple's permission. Then I'll consider using an iPhone.
What technological advance is there for high quality complex software?
The advances that made Apple Silicon possible were, fundamentally, TSMC and ARM. These were the material conditions that had to exist in order for a tech company to capitalize on a new generation of vertically integrated chip design. Now what's the conditions for next generation Mac OS? What research advances or software engineering paradigms that are mature enough for adoption? The state of Apple software isn't just due to mismanagement, it is, but the success of the hardware entails technology nodes as a confounding factor.
I don' really understand where people's enthusiasm for the hardware comes from (aside from the chips).
They have corrected many of the functional compromises of the Ive era, but it seems otherwise unambitous.
The recent Pro iPhones have a certain unflattering chunkiness.
MacBooks have also grown to an uncomfortable weight and lost some of the elegance of prior design.
They also suffer from an unnecessarily huge notch.
On top of that there are a number of products whose usability concerns never got addressed. AirPods Max and Vision Pro are too heavy to wear for a long time and the ergonomic travesty of using and ridiculousness of charging the Magic Mouse remain unaddressed. Apple Watches got a tenth of the standby time of Garmin and other sport watches.
It's not that the hardware is horrible, but I think if it weren't for the ecosystem and chips most Apple products would seem quite unremarkable.
This. I just want Freeform usable on iPadOS again.
Since 26 upgrade it is unusable with 100+ notes. It looks like they merged iOS variant with Macos one. Constant freezes, random unsaves, device gets boiling hot. No fix with factory reset. I love the HW but SW needs more love.
Short-term, I'm just hoping this means the AirPods Max (and Vision Pro too, I guess) get a redesign that ditches all the uncomfortably heavy metal shells.
They were touting ultralight ultra light thin metals for a while there, but never really followed up past the SIM ejection tools.
The main reason I haven’t purchased a Vision Pro is they have all sorts of glass on the front. I live alone and don’t need to share my eyes with an empty room, and even I did I would rather have a screen I could control to make a funny mask with. That screen is a step too far with not giving users control.
I tend to disagree to a point: their laptops have great internals but are terrible from a usage perspective — I like to imagine their system board in a Thinkpad X1 Carbon chassis with native Linux!
But HW is at least improving (eg. they added anti-reflective screen option), and SW is very much not.
They are leaps and bounds ahead for people who want their specific formula or don't really care about computers.
Apple has always been a "our way or the highway" brand, we can at least keep in mind that 3 laptop formulas only differenciated by size and thickness won't cut it for everyone on the planet.
A sports motorcycle from 2026 is made for people who don't really care about motorcycles. The engine is super tight, performant, doesn't leak oil, doesn't give you any problems, doesn't need tuning or maintenance outside of regular check-ups. You get on it and go. And it's much safer because of automatic safety systems.
Sports motorcycles used to be for people who care about motorcycles. Breakdowns, unsafe, finicky, tuning the carburetor if you went between mountains and sea level. You didn't just get on it and go. You had to know about motorcycles if you were an owner. And each individual model had their individual quirks.
A sports bike doesn't work for every task nor is it ideal for every task neither. A diesel truck has more horse power and is more customizable, if that's what you need.
> their laptops have great internals but are terrible from a usage perspective — I like to imagine their system board in a Thinkpad X1 Carbon chassis with native Linux!
I don't know about Thinkpads, but the utterly pleasant glass trackpad is still one of the things I cannot find on most non-Mac laptops, despite every manufacturer being able to copy it for years.
The closest I've found are the Surface laptop/cover trackpads, but they have their own set of reliability and repairability issues.
As a MacBook user, I very rarely want to use a mouse except for gaming. THe trackpad is delightful enough for the bulk of my use cases.
You might be sleeping on trackpoint. I don't remember the last time I used a trackpad once I onboarded on trackpoint - all that hand waving is so tiring when you can achieve the same action even faster by just moving two fingers couple of milimeters. You just move your index from H to trackpoint and thumb from space to mouse buttons which is basically the smallest movement you can do on your keyboard.
> You just move your index from H to trackpoint and thumb from space to mouse buttons which is basically the smallest movement you can do on your keyboard.
What about gestures, like two-finger scroll, or two-finger hold+click right click?
Systems that have trackpoints have physical mouse buttons, so you can just do real right clicks. Scrolling typically has its own input combo: hold the middle mouse button plus push the trackpoint to scroll in whatever direction you're pushing.
If there's a trackpad as well (usually there is), you can still do all the multi-finger gestures on it unless you choose to disable the trackpad altogether.
Fwiw, I don't find the trackpoint faster or more precise than the giant MacBook trackpads. Its main advantages are being closer to your index fingers' likely resting position on the keyboard, physical mouse buttons, and requiring less vertical space than a giant trackpad.
I haven't used a touchpad in recent years that wasn't "good enough", I really don't obsess about those (but I acknowledge that many do here), but I profoundly dislike MacBooks' keyboards. Anyhow, let's not pretend that it matters as much as the broken mess of a desktop environment/windows manager that the OS sitting on top is.
> I don't know about Thinkpads, but the utterly pleasant glass trackpad is still one of the things I cannot find on most non-Mac laptops, despite every manufacturer being able to copy it for years.
I was never a trackpad person until I finally got a Mac at work maybe 10 years ago. But since the trackpads stopped really clicking in favor of haptics, they're a lot worse than they used to be. I get false/double clicks and inconsistent feedback.
ThinkPads have nicer keyboards, but they stopped doing the more traditional IBM layout several years ago, which is really unfortunate. I'd be willing to pay for a more traditional keyboard layout with a slightly smaller trackpad and/or a sizeable bottom bezel (which is actually preferable for me because of my posture when I use a laptop most of the time).
Always makes me wonder how people use their machine when I read comments like this
I’ve worked in big tech and fast growing startups, side by side at one point or another next to hundreds of nerds that love talking about hardware and software
The touchpad is almost universally loved - I have never ever once her anyone complain about the click - most people didn’t even notice the switch
It has 3D Touch and all that and I’ve never gotten a false click - ever - not exaggerating, in however long they’ve been out
The only complaint I’ve ever heard more than once is that sometimes it takes a second to respond
So I ask you: how do you use your laptop? If no one else complains about this, it’s at least worth asking the question: what do you think you’re doing differently than everybody else?
Sure, I can tell you one thing that's different right now: I use third-party software to get a three-finger middle click. If Apple's operating system weren't missing basic features like the ability to middle click via the trackpad, I wouldn't have to do that and maybe wouldn't have this problem.
> I tend to disagree to a point: their laptops have great internals but are terrible from a usage perspective — I like to imagine their system board in a Thinkpad X1 Carbon chassis with native Linux!
> But HW is at least improving (eg. they added anti-reflective screen option), and SW is very much not.
And I would disagree with the idea that I should be running Linux on my primary machine. As a developer, I've faced enough "death by a thousand cuts" situations from running Linux on my personal router and servers to let it anywhere close to my main computer.
Don't even get me started on the hardware quality of Mac laptop including their stellar trackpads, screens and the smallest details like the quality of the hinge. I can still open my 5 year old Mac with a single finger and the hinge is as solid as the day I bought it.
As someone who's also particular about user experience, Linux always fails at this. If you have good UX, that means you can critically think for what a user wants from a computer, and can determine what should and shouldn’t be prioritized. UX is never a first-class citizen on Linux, and for all the issues with Tahoe, macOS still has enough residual quality left in it to not feel like I'm constantly fighting the operating system.
Simple example: I want HDR on Linux. Should be easy right? Just switch to Plasma under Wayland? Then do a one time config so mpv can play HDR. Oh and no browsers support it so good luck. Games need gamescope and flags to be set.
I want my computer to work, not for me to work as an integration engineer. So I use my Mac and it just works™. So I just let Linux live where I feel it works best, in servers and headless environments.
Out of curiosity, what are you developing? While regular usage stuff such as HDR is indeed lacking, and general UX leaves a lot to be desired, Linux was always best for me in any software development discipline that I took on, and macOS was a "death by a thousand cuts" instead.
With Linux, it is really multiple UX ecosystems: you can be in one (eg. Gtk+/Gnome and/or Qt/KDE) and consistency will be there. Not perfect, but MacOS is not much better.
OTOH, I want subpixel rendering on my big screens, and you can't have it with a Mac.
I was sooo in your boat just a while ago. Recently (15 days) switched to an Asus NUC pro (mini pc) with intel 225h. I kid you not, I am running Almalinux 10, KDE on it, not even the latest/greatest. I have HDR, VRR, 120Hz, media acceleration, with dual monitors with different settings you name it. Everything works!!
did you tried nix home-manager for linux software setup? i never was able to use linux until nix.
hardware - afaik only lenovo(some say asus is worth to try - but no official linux support, framework is sturdy but feels cheap) is well know for quality hardware - others are questionable.
unfortunately AMD AI Max 390/2/5+ nor Qualcomm Elite 2 Lenovos are not here.
if you use nixos you end up feeling like you need to spend more time developing your personal computer's configuration than developing your actual projects, ime.
it kind of 'just works' if someone already wrote the nix code to do what you want it to do and put it in nixpkgs and you manage to find it and figure out how to use it. but if that isn't the case, good luck. i once spent almost a week trying to get a program to build and run properly under nix that could probably be installed in around 20 seconds on a osx/windows machine.
This might have been the case a couple of years ago, but it is certainly not true any more, if you use AI [even occasionally] to manage some of your default.nix and flake.nix files. I learn by getting AI to edit it (default.nix for example), and then study what it did. It helps.
The quality of the managed / packages software, however, is still a bit subpar compared to Debian and Redhat.
NixOS people are kinda like Jehovah's Witnesses of Hacker News. Every time someone mentions Linux problems there is that one guy asking "But have you tried Nix?". No offense I just find it funny.
2. nix is just package manager and configurator of sh which forces to write idempotent sh code with explicit dependencies(just good practices right? check guidelines of any non nix solutions and you will find out that 90% of these rules are just nix). nixos, nix darwin, nix home manager final artifacts are just just idiomatic dotfiles, so nix does not exist.
Interesting, I feel like Apple's palm (I guess thumb?) rejection has been working pretty good for me. In fact I am pretty sure as you type the cursor is completely disabled?
They're pretty good, but you can find other good trackpads too. The main thing about Apple is that their trackpads are consistently pretty good, while with other brands it can be hard to figure out what you'll be getting until you try it yourself.
There's also software component. It has improved by now, but early libinput was giving some good trackpads bad rep.
Agree, Microsoft needs to be next in my eyes. They have really degraded Windows. I do not know how Bill Gates uses a computer and doesnt lose his colossal shit at how garbage it is on high end Microsoft made devices.
For context, I have been a Microsoft fanboy for years, a .NET Developer for over a decade, my one Windows machine (I also love Linux ;) is a Microsoft made product, with all factory defaults, because Windows in the past has always been very stable for me if I don't go around tweaking things. For some reason however, my Windows copy on an official Microsoft device has been slowed to a crawl for like 3 years now, which is a bit concerning because I had it for a good 2 years before that. None of my Linux devices have this problem, and when I install Linux on any formerly Windows device, it brings new life to the device, and they last way longer than if I had just kept Windows.
I really think Craig needs to go. I can't remember a single software decision under his tenure that is good. Having said that I don't know who can replace him.
Bertrand Serlet, Avie Tevanian, Scott Forstall were all great with software directions.
Craig feels like a people pleaser. Which may be great for modern or current Silicon Valley where everything has a softer approach. But pleasing everyone means there is no unity and direction. Software stack that is less cohesive.
I still to this day do not believe Swift is the right path, in both technical and philosophical approach.
I think Tim Cook took Steve Job's vision and really took it to the moon. If you think about the last 15 years, Apple has really become the biggest possible version of itself without losing its values.
Tech in general has changed quite a bit though. I don't know how Steve Jobs would have reacted to AI, and I don't know where tech itself would be if Jobs were still around. But I do think the next evolution is due and yet to be seen. It's not clear that Tim Cook would be the one to effectively see that through. And so I think his timing is impeccable and probably aligned with what is best for Apple. I have a lot of respect here: time has shown that a lot of leaders don't let go until its too late.
I'd also add that from the perspective of an employee in the industry, Tim Cook has had a remarkably steady hand throughout multiple business cycles in the industry that have made Apple a much better place to work than many of the other very large tech companies: no massive over-hiring after covid, no massive layoffs to correct for that, average tenure at the company BLOWS other companies out of the water, a reputation for a strong engineering culture
I say this as someone who hasn't worked there, but has a large number of friends and peers who currently do or have in recent years.
For example, Tim had the discipline to get out of the EV projects. Which was likely wise given the challenges the sector has faced in profitability, and Apple's long term outside option to accrue vehicular services revenue through CarPlay. Yet someone in his position could have burned $200B pretty easily to try and build a business there.
The only mistake he made was not buying Tesla around the M3 launch. Elon was desperate and would have sold it to him for cheap. He didn't take the meeting.
Otherwise I completely agree, once Tesla reached takeoff, it's too hard for anyone else to do it without burning mountains worth of cash.
How do you see AI playing out there? Are you glad you got out before AI coding became a thing? What are you up to in your retirement years, anything fun? Thanks.
> I think Tim Cook took Steve Job's vision and really took it to the moon.
I vehemently disagree with this. I think Cook's logistics and business-focused goals are, if not diametrically opposed to Job's product obsession, at the very least orthogonal to it. Almost everything about Apple the product, over the past 15 years, has either coasted (e.g. stayed at par with the rest of the industry) or gotten worse. The one exception is arguably Apple Silicon (and I'm sure their board is acutely aware of it).
I find this critique extremely odd. Sure, Apple isn't perfect, but literally every thing they do is top tier in the category they enter.
I started writing out a list of Apple's products and it was simply [x device] in [y category] is either the best or consistently rated in the top of that category.
MacOS sucks but everything else sucks harder. Linux is still nowhere close to being good enough for the average consumer in regards to simplicity regardless of how much gaslighting the community pushes.
Linux sucks in a way that is more controllable by me. I have run Arch Linux as my daily driver for 4-5 years. But I can't on a MacBook, which has the nicest hardware
It's not gaslighting; you're not the average consumer by the simple fact that you know what HN is. My 12 year old cousins havE daily driven ElementaryOS for a year
In Steve Jobs biography, I read that he was obsessed with the factory they built to mass produce devices. I think he was in some way also obsessed with logistics of how things were made, and Tim Cook came in and not only helped Apple but also helped transform the global supply chain.
I also think most products apple makes are in the top tier of their respective category, if not the best.
Successful for the business no doubt, but they are an example of 'par with the rest of the industry' aren't they? Nothing market leading about them (except perhaps the price, heh) and not the first in the category, just one of a bunch of good options.
Nothing market leading about AirPods? I find it telling that it’s one of the only Apple products that LTT Linus is using, despite not working as well with Android as with iOS. And they have around 30% market share in their product category
You find it telling that some YouTube 'influencer' uses Airpods? You only noticed because of Apple's distinctive white branding, they have market leading marketing, I'll give you that!
Not GP, but I also find it telling that Influencer with a free pick at any sound equipment at any price point, famously not super onboard with the ecosystem (Bar recently with the Neo) still does pick them
Linus is not an audiophile by any means, but he's also exposed to more and better equipment than even most of the already significant outliers in HN
Their ability to connect and move between devices is 100x better than any competitor. They were also the first to make truly wireless earphones that didn't suck. Judging it now, when the market has finally caught up in most areas doesn't make sense.
>Their ability to connect and move between devices is 100x better than any competitor.
This statement only has any merit if your usage pattern is 100% limited to Apple devices, otherwise it falls apart.
It would be fine if they fell back to "at least as good as the competition" in a mixed use case, but in the mixed case they are worse than what even low-budget BT buds often offer (no BT Multipoint, no ear recognition, etc., hell, not even a battery level over BT...and even pairing/reconnect is often a crapshoot reminiscent of the state of BT Audio 10-15 years ago). It was honestly a really disappointing realization.
I have no problems using my AirPods across two Macs, an iPhone and Windows. I have to manually reconnect on Windows if I have an active Apple device nearby which I recently used the AirPods with, but apart from that it's quite seamless. This worked fine in 2020 already.
Yes, what about airpods? Little reason to buy them if you are not in the Apple ecosystem, and if you are, and you are a careful buyer, you'll probably settle with other brands which are technically ahead (in either of build, sound or ANR quality, or all, Apple being on the Pareto front of neither). I'm not dismissing the marketing forces behind airpods selling by the millions as a "status symbol", but that's very much a "high cost of living country" thing, Apple is inexistent elsewhere, which is most places.
Apple plays the 'it's the best for most people' game, not the 'technically ahead in [one or a few feature categories]' game. They make the lion's share of profit in the categories they compete in because they sell to the mass market; there's 2.5 billion active iOS devices!
Every time I see someone here dismiss this success as status symbol-oriented marketing, I just shake my head at how much that signals a deep misunderstanding of how the world works or what most of the human race wants in a product. Nobody wants the Sony WF-1000XM5 earbuds because Sony doesn't even give a shit enough to give them a name people can remember. Nobody wants Bose earbuds because nobody wants to open a buggy spyware-laden app to turn on/off noise cancelling. These products are destined to fail because they make simple things complicated, untrustworthy, bothersome.
People are whole-experience buyers, not single-feature buyers, and the experience nearly every person on earth wants is the magical 'I put it in and it works' experience. What people want is all the upside of the magic of technology and none of the cognitive overhead associated with it. The specific choices that make up a product offering - aka the product marketing - reflect the inherent desire of the customer. Any luxury / status symbol aspects come AFTER that.
You fool! The WF-1000XM5 is the worst model of the line! You should buy the WF-1010XN5, it is far superior!
Apple tends to name things in an odd way, e.g. sometimes you need to remember whether your laptop came out in "early" 2014 or "late" 2014, but they have a remarkably flat, but consistent, product line.
I mean, honestly, if somebody just tossed you a random Macbook from the Apple store, it may not be the exact model you want but you wouldn't complain. All of them are pretty good, even down to the bargain basement Neo.
Yeah tho most customers never even encounter that level of detail. Most people just know there’s a ‘new one’ and an ‘old one’. If they have an old one, they come in and get a new one. Everyone replaces on their own replacement schedule, and every year there’s a new one, so it kinda just works for everyone.
Apple at its best makes its product like so legible people only need dim awareness of what they’re buying. That’s only possible if you build a ton of trust with consumers, which is why Apple is so so focused on their brand value.
This comes off as a quite dismissive and incurious take. Are you quite sure that of the ~500 million consumers who bought a pair, nobody considered utility and it was simply a fashion choice? Or is it more likely that some consumers judge the utility differently from you?
I happen to have a pair of airpod pro 2 and some Sony's (the airpods being a gift). Nothing about the airpods strikes me as being clearly superior, which is surprisingly rare for Apple products: they tend to all stand out in one way or another, whether that's essential to the experience or not (I have no use for an iPad, but I can tell a good display when I see one, I wouldn't keep a MacBook if one was gifted to me, but I can appreciate a good trackpad, …).
Airpods? I have nothing bad to say about them, but nothing good either (I rather take the Sony's with better NC and battery life on a flight, better audio quality and painless equalizer).
> Or is it more likely that some consumers judge the utility differently from you?
That's possibly the case, so help me, what I am missing?
Apple didn't use to be a status symbol. I think they earned it. And the fact that they are going all in on Neo tells me they don't care about the status symbol part as much as the profit maximizing. Let me know when Ferrari sells an affordable car.
Yep - Apple have worked through to becoming a luxury, upscale brand and there is no reason for them right now to change from that perception with their current market upper hand
Im not sure how you think Apple is an upscale luxury brand. Every teenager in America owns an iphone with airpods.
Thats the power of marketing, making you think you are exclusive and treating yourself to luxury when you buy their product, instead of the reality that is everybody on the planet owns the same device as you.
Staus symbol is defined as "a visible, external marker—such as luxury goods, exclusive memberships, or specific lifestyles—used to indicate an individual's high social, economic, or professional standing."
Does owning the same phone as every 16 year old in America really fit that description?
People forget that you could buy Ferrari's in the 60s for 7-18K. 7K was the entry Ferrari. Average new car price in 1967 was $3000, so the entry Ferrari was 2.3 times the average new car price.
Today the average new car price in the US is 50K. That would make an entry Ferrari 115K, but the cheapest new Ferrari is the Roma at 225K, or double that.
Ferrari used to be more accessible, but we had compressed incomes then, the rich weren't so far from the middle as they are now. Similarly in 1967 a bottle of Channel no 5 cost $15, but today it is $200. According to inflation, it should be $140, so again roughly double the spread.
That's a very weird choice. I can understand people buying them for the integration with the Apple ecosystem, but outside of it they're just dumb bluetooth earphones. There are better alternatives.
Instead of being curious why someone would make a choice you didn't, you chose to attack the choice! You might as well stick your fingers in your ears and go "na na na I can't hear you!" until you find a tribe of fellow haters.
In my experience, they work much better, their bluetooth connectivity and the way both of them are in sync is top notch. I also find their ergonomics the best for comfort, battery, how the case works, etc. And they have one of the best microphone for calls and how audible you are to the other person while not picking up too much noise.
This is tangential but somehow fits here. I tried multiple wired and bluetooth earphones/headphones with my switch 2. And the only ones that gave the sound that was acceptable to me, were the airpods. I had the Sony WHX… headphones, I also tried them using an aux cable, I had a few aux wired earphones (skullcandy and some others), all of their output was weak.
I am not even sure how that’s possible, I don’t understand sound/music quality as much, but I was genuinely surprised by this.
It’s a logical choice. They are good and not that expensive. The whole "they only fit with other Apple devices" is misleading. They work better with a Mac than a Windows PC, sure, but on that Windows PC they work as well as the really good alternatives. None of the supposedly better alternatives are better in every aspect. It’s a tradeoff.
> you'll probably settle with other brands which are technically ahead (in either of build, sound or ANR quality, or all, Apple being on the Pareto front of neither)
Like what? In the true wireless camp, the Sony's are much less comfortable (and more expensive), the Bose are not as good (and more expensive)...
There's cheaper options, sure, but you're sacrificing build, ANC, battery life, etc.
Except we can’t discount the fact that Jobs chose Cook as his successor. So there’s something Jobs clearly saw there, past being “diametrically opposed” to Jobs’ product obsession. Maybe Jobs felt there were enough product people.
I'm not just being snarky — I don't think it's reasonable to say the profit-maximizing service-oriented Apple is the best possible version of itself without losing its values of personal computing and individual empowerment.
Profit maximizing often involves selling much cheaper and lower quality versions of your products. Often times this involves even getting other companies to mass produce it under your name. The cheapest Mac is arguably their best product.
Besides some changes to macOS and removing the ability to upgrade I've been pretty happy with Apple.
Steve Jobs existed in an era where he could show us new technology when new technology brought a sense of joy and amazement; whereas due to a multitude of factors, new technology no longer causes such emotions for a substantial portion of people.
The main factor is that the same people are 15 years older now. You can ask people who are 50+ now whether they felt "a sense of joy and amazement" when iPhone was introduced.
There's nothing like that reveal of the first MacBook Air, where he whips it out of a manilla envelope. I loved that first one at the time. Maybe less so on my lap when it turned into a stovetop - but it was innovative and cool and exciting, and the stuff now is not.
To a point I think the blame lies on the tech companies not doing their jobs. The iPad could have been that kind of joy and amazement machine for many, except it never was allowed to entrench on the mac or the iPhone.
The Steamdeck was a breath of fresh air, the whole Steam frames and cube could have been a big deal.
Cook did a great job. I was hesitant when Steve Jobs died and Cook took over. Jobs was so visionary and it wasn’t clear that a finance guy would be a good fit. He clearly learned what he needed to and he trusted those people around him in the organization who also had vision to do what they do best. So, kudos to Cook. He proved my fears unwarranted.
The problem with the word "AI" is that it's a broad term with fuzzy borders depending on who you ask.
But no matter what definition you take Siri was not the first AI. It's a classical cases of Apple fans thinking Apple invented everything because they saw it first in an Apple product...
If you think about AI in broad terms, it goes back to the 1970's where any skill computers gained originally thought as only human was called AI. Like playing chess.
If you think about the recent use of AI = LLM chatbots/gen AI, Siri wasn't an LLM.
> But no matter what definition you take Siri was not the first AI. It's a classical cases of Apple fans thinking Apple invented everything because they saw it first in an Apple product...
That’s a point you are very unlikely to see being made. Apple famously bought the startup that was making Siri. They didn’t even change the name.
> It's a classical cases of Apple fans thinking Apple invented everything because they saw it first in an Apple product.
This is a classic case of thinking that inventing something before others is all that matters, while ignoring that finding a mass market use-case for an existing technology is also important.
I am not a big Apple fan, but when I see what they did with the M-series MacBooks, it feels like they are from the future. And not just a year ahead or so, but more like a decade.
This is something Tim and John both deserve credit for.
Cook has done more or less the opposite of what Jobs did.
Jobs was all about bold innovation, hugely risky bets on gamechanging products.
Cook is a timid logistics optimizer, and he's good at that. We reliably get an iPhone with slightly more RAM, slightly faster CPU on schedule every year. No category changing products.
Innovation has stopped -- after Jobs, there is only minor incremental improvement
Reminds me of the Godfather and how they called Tom Hagen not a "wartime consigliere". This was at a time when conflicts were starting up again and Vito had just been gunned down. Tim is Tom. Steve was Vito.
When Steve Jobs came back in 1997 Apple was against the ropes and they needed some radical change lest they sink.
But after they stabilized around 2010s then they didn't need radical shakeups but to maintain the good thing they got going. Tim was the man for that. And he did it well.
And yes I get that in this case one is a consigliere and one is the Don but there's similarity here.
I don't own one, but the Apple Watch did very much change the category, defined it even. Vision Pro was a innovative bet, maybe not a great one. Apple Silicon completely changed the game.
The Apple Watch is a niche product for a few tech nerds (at least outside of Silicon Valley tech circles), not an ubiquitous feature of everyday life for normal people the way the PC, the iPod, and the iPhone are.
Vision Pro was a science experiment that few people have even heard of.
Apple Silicon is a perfect example of a purely internal-facing logistics optimization: sure, it's fine in terms of saving money and boosting performance. 99% of end users do not know or care whether they have Apple Silicon or Intel chips.
Just utter nonsense about the watch. They're very popular with normal British people like my mother. M1 was a performance per watt revolution. Sounds like you're either clueless, hate Apple or Tim Cook, or all of the above.
Let's keep it quantitative rather than relying upon personal anecdotes: Apple does not break out unit sales for the Watch (which in itself is telling.)
According to third party analyst estimates which are readily obtainable from search engines, the Apple Watch has shipped just over 100 million units worldwide since inception. Upgrade cycles are weak to nonexistent. Growth flatlined years ago -- even declining slightly in recent years. After the initial burst of interest from early adopters -- that is, tech nerds plus a few outliers here and there among normies -- demand fizzled.
The iPhone has shipped 3 billion units. It is in an entirely different category. While demand has roughly plateaued, there is a strong upgrade / replacement cycle. Annual iPhone sales are in the ~250M range -- far more iPhones are sold every year than all Apple Watches that have ever been sold in history.
The Apple Watch is firmly in the "niche product" category. It's not a "gamechanger for everyday life for normal people," notwithstanding the existence of a few normie outliers here and there.
That's the bar you set. So you're saying the Apple Watch did not change the watch category? And likewise Airpods, or Apple Silicon laptops?
I don't know where the comparisons to iPhone have come from. No, it's not comparable to iPhone. Nobody said it was. That would be crazy.
You call Vision Pro a science experiment and dismiss Apple Silicon as irrelevant to users, but also say there's been no innovation. How do you square that?
> Tim Cook took Steve Job's vision and really took it to the moon.
He only carried what was left from Steve Jobs. But nothing special or groundbreaking came from him. Apple Vision failed, the transition to AI failed, many people still dislike what is done with the MacBook, he agreed to have the horrible glass UI design just like what Windows did a decade ago, and he failed to find the next Jony Ive, etc... Sure he was an awesome COO. But as a CEO, he was certainly way below Steve Jobs and even less taking his vision "to the moon".
I would disagree here. Apple actually did lose their values, or they are in the process of doing so.
Ads in App Store results, Ads in Maps (coming soon!), constant upsells and pushes of subscriptions and services, forced upgrade of Numbers/Pages/Keynote with annoying nags that can't be turned off, things are getting worse.
Also, when the word "values" is mentioned, one cannot forget about Tim Cook's donations to Trump and his overall support of Trump and cozying up to him.
I despise the Cook hate from some Apple fans. No he’s not the visionary that Jobs was. But I think he was the best person to scale Apple up to what it is today while still keeping the soul of the company alive.
> Apple has really become the biggest possible version of itself without losing its values.
I could not disagree more. Apple
has become increasingly just another tech company shipping products that are great but not insanely so.
The level of insanely great coming out of Apple has been in steady and constant decline since Jobs’ death.
The “I wish Steve were still around so he could have vetoed this” that I get have been steadily increasing on a y/y basis for the last 5-10 years.
I’m not talking about big obvious macro stuff like the Airpods Max being super mid or how much my face hurts after wearing the ridiculously heavy Vision Pro for a while, but the constant subscription nags for $5 after buying a $1500 phone and a million other little paper cuts, culminating lately in the polished turd of an OS that is 26.x. Apple is the most un-Apple it has ever been in its history. Their contempt for their users is now palpable.
> Apple has really become the biggest possible version of itself without losing its values.
Such as Think Different, where you don't need to comply with the standard ways of doing things?
From a Steve Jobs interview in relation to this statement:
> When you grow up you tend to get told the world is the way it is and your job is just to live your life inside the world. Try not to bash into the walls too much. Try to have a nice family life, have fun, save a little money.
> That's a very limited life. Life can be much broader once you discover one simple fact, and that is - everything around you that you call life, was made up by people that were no smarter than you. And you can change it, you can influence it, you can build your own things that other people can use.
I couldn't think of a company to whose hardware "your job is just to live your life inside [someone else's] world" applies more, though maybe that's because Oracle doesn't make consumer hardware products
Edit: I should probably add that this isn't meant as a purely negative statement: many people want to hand over digital control and have someone else be bothered with keeping the hardware running and curating what software they're allowed to run. It's not me, and it's not what Steve Jobs said Apple was about, but it's not that I don't understand why someone's grandma would choose it
I understand Tim is a logistics genius and Ternus is a hardware genius, and that we all want better software and policy from Apple, but I'm glad that there seems to be good people at the head of one of the biggest and most consequential companies, and further that they seem to care about being good people.
As far as I can see, that's the only way to have a prayer of scaling without too much damage, which is the key issue humanity faces today.
Also want to second your point about the need for having good people leading large organizations like Apple. Especially so as things are changing so fast in technology, with a widening impact across more and more aspects and parts of lives of people and society. We certainly see the negative impact that comes with questionable and/or short term decisions (see social media), so I too am hopeful that above all else, Ternus is a good person and makes (for the most part) good decisions for people and society first and foremost.
> I understand Tim is a logistics genius and Ternus is a hardware genius, and that we all want better software and policy from Apple
While I agree with all these points, I'd still rather see a hardware guru leading Apple rather than a software-focused leader. The state of software zeitgeist has gotten fairly poor, and the types of formal and thorough "Acceptance Testing" that are common in hardware are more likely to produce great experiences for users than whatever most software leaders are doing today.
Before anyone mentions how all hardware groups seem to produce god-awful software (IoT, vehicles, etc)...I agree, though I have generally attributed this to a lack of budget and vision. I don't expect those two things to be an issue at Apple, but I could be surprised.
This is a really good take. This is absolutely not software's stable era, we're in for a rough next decade as AI upends every well-established software practice and the very paradigms we've relied on for so long of apps, OS, and ecosystem. This is an era we have to get through and it's going to be messy as hell.
Leadership needs to make sure everything else in the business is in order so that they can contain and shape the direction of the white-hot plasma of AI and its implications. A software leader would be too hands-on in this process and get nerd sniped. Sometimes you need some distance.
I really wish they did more for free software. I know they contribute heavily to LLVM and are still the main stewards of webkit, but they've very much ignored darwin as a free software operating system, to the point it feels like they only keep it free out of legal obligation
Ternus is not a hardware genius. He's a hardware engineer that rose through the ranks at Apple because, from what I've heard from Apple hardware engineers, Dan Riccio liked him "like a son."
Well he is, but I cannot forget being completely blown away by the lack of, I don't even know what to call it.
On a moment of worldwide shortage, this move didn't move masks to the US that were shelved in forgotten warehouses, they raised the price and left medical workers from poorer countries exposed.
I honestly don't know. tim@apple.com is unavailable for quite some time now (since I tried a few years ago), while lisasu@amd.com still works around that time frame.
Yes! Can confirm. I emailed him in March 2020 after my 16-day old MacBook Pro had a logic board failure resulting in endless kernel panics. It was just past the return date so I couldn’t just return it and get a new one, so my local Apple Store had sent it in for repair. Then covid hit and everything shut down, so they couldn’t get it fixed and sent back either.
I had emailed with an explanation of what had occurred, and asked if I could get a refund so that I could just purchase a replacement. Within two hours of sending my email, an assistant from his office called me to arrange sending me a replacement. I was really impressed. I honestly figured I would just have to wait until the repair depot opened again, because I didn’t think I would hear back about my email.
Then a month or so later I got a call from the repair depot asking what address I’d like my repaired laptop sent to, since it was supposed to be sent back to the store for pickup (but stores were closed.) So I guess the right hand knoweth not what the left hand doeth in that case, because the person on the phone from repairs was pretty confused when I said no thanks.
I would have assumed that some assistant goes through the inbox and only a (random or filtered) subsample of those mails actually gets read by Tim Cook.
For Apple nerds that pay close attention to company, this is no surprise. Third-party dev Marco Arment wrote a blog post speaking to Ternus earlier this month[0].
Marco has enough standing within our world that it's actually a clever idea to appeal to Ternus on these terms. He'll probably be aware that it was written and the appeal is somewhat generic in its call to reverse course on some Cook-era policies.
We're all very hopeful but there's not enough information available on the outside to predict with any certainty how he'll lead.
Marco should concentrate on fixing the UX abomination that Overcast has become instead of writing breathy sophomoric letters. At this point, I’ll vibe code my own podcast player.
I mean, whatever your opinion of his redesign of the app (I know a lot of people were pretty unhappy), he is a host on a podcast that has had Phil Schiller (former head of marketing who was on stage with Jobs for many years) as a guest while he was still an Apple exec. He's a known entity to them.
Further, one of the other hosts is John Siracusa, the guy who wrote in-depth 18 page reviews of MacOS X releases for ArsTechnica for many years. He got a shoutout from Apple's head of software, Craig Federighi, when I attended a live interview in 2019 during the week of their World Wide Developer's Conference (hosted by John Gruber of Daring Fireball). Siracusa must have been in the first few rows because Federighi said something like, "Oh, there's Siracusa." You could label that "fan service" because everyone in that theater knows who he's talking about and it's a form of acknowledging the crowd as a community.
So, all of this is to say that Marco is one of the small number of outsiders who could write such a letter on their blog and have upper ranks of Apple hear about it and maybe, maybe not, be curious enough to see what was said. I can't do that. I don't know if you can. But Marco can. I'm glad he took a shot. Whether it means anything, we'll never know.
And yes, the release of his redesign was premature, but I'm ok with the app as my daily podcast driver right now.
Oh I love ATP and even eventually warmed up to Casey. It’s just that “stick to what you know” (or don’t?) thing. I’m not one of those that hate on Tahoe, it’s a temporary distraction, but Overcast more and more looks like some kind of slapped together non native app. He needs to hire a designer, he can afford it.
If you want to burn tokens making a bespoke podcast player its probably a good learning exercise. I like Overcast, it would be great if i could see the latest episodes on the front page when opening the app, otherwise its fine.
> Why would anyone pay close attention to a company ?
Why would anyone pay close attention to a sports team? A musician? A writer?
But if you read Arment's post:
> As you grow into the leader that we know you can be, I urge you, on behalf of everyone who loves computers as much as we do, to protect and cultivate this spirit of Apple’s founders as the company’s top priority:
> *We love computers. We don’t hide that — we celebrate it!
> *We use computers to enhance our minds, lives, and abilities — not to be controlled, restricted, tricked, placated, angered, or surveilled.
> *Our computers work for us, with the utmost respect for our time, attention, money, data, and privacy.
> *We are customers and owners — not resources to be harvested, annoyed, or badgered into ever more services and upsells.
> Apple leads the industry in these values, but leading doesn’t always mean excelling. Remaining true to these values requires constant diligence, honest evaluation, introspection, and the audacity and courage to effect change.
I dunno. Cause I spend a lot of money on their products and a lot of my time using their software. The announcements they make affect the way I use computers.
Does anyone here pay close attention to updates in the Linux kernel or is that pretty stupid too? (To be fair, you didn't call me stupid, but it's sorta there.)
What's Framework doing? I'm pretty jazzed about their laptops even though I don't buy them.
What about game companies that get bought by Microsoft and now people worry that the franchise they love might get killed?
I'm a nerd and I care a lot about a thing. I don't feel bad about that.
I'm curious how you ended up creating an account on Hacker News if you don't see why people would be interested in major news regarding the biggest computer maker on the planet.
When your livelihood indirectly depends on their whims (aka the app store rules) or the possibility some new feature or product they announce directly affects the way you build your software, either positively or negatively, why not pay close attention?
I've been critical of Cook at times because I feel his vision was a business vision more than the kind of futurism I felt from Jobs. Cook was the ultimate bean counter, hyper-optimizing Apple from a financial and operational perspective. I felt like he took less risks and was mostly squeezing every single advantage that Apple had to its limit.
But I cannot argue with the results the man achieved. Especially the transition to A-series and then M-series chips has been an incredible success. Perhaps the biggest flop was the Apple Vision Pro, but it is hard to really call him out on that since it wasn't that Apple lost a battle, it was that the product category just hasn't caught on (yet). Siri is another place where Apple has lagged but they could very easily catch up with the massive interest in local AI on the mac minis.
I think it will be difficult to look back on his legacy without giving him a large share of credit for Apple's continued success.
Moving to Apple Silicon perfectly suited Tim Cook’s skill set and is a great foundation for the company’s future. He played to his strengths in a way that genuinely brought huge benefits to the consumer.
Now I think we need to see Apple remake categories the way they did under Steve. If that can happen again, the future is bright.
Strategic competence and playing to your strengths is ok to me. Avoiding lots of bad decisions can sometimes be just as good as making some really good decisions.
Gosh I just read a really hellish thread on what frontier LLMs will become as they're infected with advertising, I hope apple manages to break locsl LLMs (and training?) Into the public discourse
The Vision Pro's failings are IMHO not software or hardware related but a poorly executed platform strategy for content. Apple's reflex to build walled gardens has crippled the effort. And it's not the first time. Their Apple TV strategy was held back for years as well. Great hardware. Very cheap. You can plug it into any TV. It's not a bad game console even. But it lacked games. And streaming TV channels. And for a long time also streaming content. Apple fixed that eventually but Apple TV remains a distant competitor to more main stream platforms such as Netflix, which works on just about anything. Just like Youtube, Hulu, Amazon Prime, HBO, Disney, and all the rest. Apple TV at this point is an also ran that apparently is barely profitable. A few nice TV series but very much a niche player. The Apple TV hardware is more or less irrelevant at this point. And despite the name, Apple never made a TV or much of a dent into conquering the living room.
Macs are great for gaming in terms of hardware. But other gaming platforms dominate the market. And Apple's walled garden approach is so effective that Steam's proton doesn't work on its platforms (so far). And its attempt to convince game developers to use Apple specific SDKs like Metal and build platforms are not really making any dent in the overall gaming market, which now eclipses Hollywood in terms of revenue and budgets. From a developer point of view it remains a highly crippled platform. And the Apple tax isn't helping.
Seen against this background, the Vision Pro is a strategic content failure. Very few 3D games work on it. Very little new 3D content is developed for it. Apple's insistence on our way or the highway continues to have developers preferring the highway. There are a few decades worth of back catalog of VR games, 3D movies, etc. Most of which flat out won't work on the Vision Pro or aren't licensed for it. They could fix that but that would require investing in content/licensing deals, compatibility/emulation, etc. And by making the core product so expensive, it basically became a niche product. And without content that remains a hard sell. It does not make sense for productions with hundreds of millions of budget (i.e. most 3D games and movies) to be targeting such a niche platform. And it does not make sense for end users to buy the product if there is no good content and if most of the good content is never released for it.
It's a very fixable problem. Valve is leading the way with Proton currently. That strategy is very portable to macs and the Vision pro. There is very little technical reason to stop that from working. And Apple has been chipping away at their own portability kit. But they are so far not really committing to it fully. They should be filling the Apple store with decades worth of great content that just works on Apple HW. As it is there is only a relatively small collection of old content that has been ported.
Re: Apple TV (the studios and the content)... it is a bit of mystery: it's very worthy and good - arguably one of Tim Cook's finest achievements - but not a runaway success in a very competitive post-TV market. Steve Jobs shepherded Pixar into the world, and I'm sure he'd consider Apple TV (again the content arm) a comparable achievement.
Steve Jobs called the original Apple TV a "hobby", and, similarly for now there isn't any pressure for it to massively grow.
I don't watch much of it but I do think Apple TV could end up a big winner in the TV wars. The shows they put out are quality and you know they are going to be renewed unlike a Netflix. It seems the strategy is to go for HBO's old position as the king of quality but that is built over decades.
I wonder what Apple TV would look like if they didn’t have Ted Lasso to put out during peak Covid. That’s really their only large mainstream success and in my estimation that success was largely a product of circumstance.
I love their SciFi material but two seasons of severance in three years won’t keep people subscribed. The only reason I have Apple TV for more than a month or two out of the year is due to the bundle plan math working out with family sharing.
I’ve seen most of those. Slow horses is phenomenal no notes. for all mankind would be as well if not for the low grade melodrama of the middle seasons, but all the space stuff is amazing. silo is good fun but like severance we’ve gotten two short seasons in how many years? shrinking started out great but did a speedrun in one season of what normally takes jenji kohan three. Foundation has decent highs especially with the dynasty and invictus in season two, but the lows are loooww. And of course severance might even be a masterpiece.
But my point wasn’t that they don’t make good television because they do, it’s that their shows aren’t talked about nearly as much in the mainstream because people don’t have Apple tv. I think Ted lasso and to a lesser degree severance are really their only major popular hits. Most people I talk to haven’t seen slow horses. If it were on Netflix they would have.
And I’m just left to wonder where Apple TV would be now if Ted lasso hadn’t been a massive breakout success for the platform, which i think largely only happened because it was a decent feel good show that came out right when the entire world was miserable and cooped up inside looking for new content.
It’s not the “walled garden” that’s preventing Valve to write Proton for Mac, it’s the lack of Vulcan support. Apple pushed to its own Metal framework when they deprecated OpenGl, which is probably great for performance, but outright denying support for Vulkan was a killer blow for games.
Which they could choose to fix but didn't because they are treating it as a walled garden. Which is the same reason they removed the OpenGL support and declined to update/modernize that implementation. As reverse engineering efforts for asahi linux have shown, implementing Vulkan is perfectly possible and apparently runs with pretty decent performance. And as Apple's own efforts with the game porting kit show, supporting DirectX is also not an impossibility and there are some examples of ported games in the Apple store.
Apple religiously defends its walled gardens. Stuff like this is the exact symptom. They don't allow third parties to "fix" this either. They don't really document their own hardware and treat it as a control point. They also don't support independent efforts to port other operating systems on mac hardware.
There is some good analysis here, but your argument about the Vision Pro being a content failure doesn't hit for me. It isn't just Apple that has failed in this space, we have Meta, Valve, HTC and a few others who have all had pretty lack-luster results. VR as a product category just doesn't seem to have caught on.
You can release a phone with desktop-strength hardware running Ubuntu Touch and people will wouldn't buy it to play games because exceedingly few games are made for it
Software support is vital here, you can't just say that if the hardware is good then people would buy it. What good is it if you can't use it?
This is exactly why the hardware + software vertical integration philosophy is fundamentally retarded. What it essentially means for N hardware vendors to each have their own software platform is that as an application developer, instead of having to develop ONE application, you have to develop N applications. Imagine if Apple hardware just used Linux and macOS / iOS / whateverthefuckOS was just a desktop environment project like Plasma / GNOME / COSMIC. You could still keep the exact same particularities / UX flows / ease of use that people expect from Apple products, AND get free access to the wealth of software and content which exists for Linux and ALSO Windows (because of wine).
I’m curious Ternus’ views on services and the heavy hand Cook has had with them. I’d like to see Apple chill out a bit. Have them, but stop pestering users with in-OS ads and notifications to sign up. It’s been very off putting and cheapens the platform.
I hope they sell a higher priced monthly Apple One bundle which allows people to pay extra to not see ads in Apple Maps. Can even make it multiple tiers for no ads in Apple TV and Apple Maps, or maybe privacy plus tiers so they can earn more money by not selling search history.
Which means the only other option is to hopefully be able to pay Apple even more to not have to see ads. Maybe buy more Apple shares to share in this "advancement".
Just because they are hear doesn’t mean they can’t ago away.
Under Jobs they tried iAds. The idea was to make ads so high quality that people would want to interact with them, and they had to go through a vetting process to ensure there were no dark patterns that would make people scared to tap an iAd. After a while, it was decided it didn’t work and they pulled it.
A company is under no obligation to continue bad ideas.
God that's really disappointing, having ads in the app store was bad enough but in an app I use everyday lowkey makes me reconsider using an iphone. I know I can always install another app but I feel like apple's moat is their 1st party software and them cheapening it to make a few cents is really disappointing. It feels really dumb going to a nice apple store opening up the app store for the first time on your $1k+ phone and you're immediately served ads so apple can make a few cents. The customer experience downgrade does not seem worth it to me.
Especially when ads win out over UX. Just a month ago I searched for UPS locations in Google Maps and filtered by open, and one place nearby popped up. I put the package in my car and drove over and lo and behold they were closed. When faced with a choice, Google chose to be greedy and make money on an ad unit over providing the correct user experience.
I've used Google Maps for two decades and have 1000s of saved pins. I could have been a customer for life. Haven't used it since.
Add Apple News to the list. Paying for Apple News and still getting paywalled by various sources was insane. I don’t know who approved that, but it turned me off the whole service.
Apple Maps really needs to up their POI game. They have some native data, but I’m still regularly seeing images from 3rd party sites and get prompted to download the app. I understood it in year 1, but we’re 13 years in now. This is the primary reason I keep Google Maps around.
It's remarkably annoying, as a business, to keep your Apple Maps data up to date. But, thankfully, they seem to have ended their partnership with Yelp.
> But, thankfully, they seem to have ended their partnership with Yelp.
I’m not so sure about this. Tapping around to some random businesses around me, I see photos being pulled in from Yelp, OpenTable, and Foursquare.
When I try to view the photos full screen, OpenTable and Foursquare images work seamlessly. Yelp prompts for an app download to jump me over to their world, which is a horrible user experience.
Friends don't let friends support Yelp. Hopefully that's all just cruft. Apple used to get things like open hours from Yelp, but now they have their own, complicated, Apple ID location that I never remember to update and have to go through typical Apple ID machinations to use.
I just opened maps and took a look. Kinda shocking to me that there doesn’t appear to be an obvious or easy way to add POI data. Google Maps is huge on promoting users to supply UGC.
Google also tries to show the impact of user-submitted POI info to help people feel good about it and encourage more submissions.
I submitted a few minor location edits to make the markers more accurate. Occasionally I’ll get an email telling me how often my new location change has been used. It’s not enough to be annoying, I’m always just shocked at the impact. Back in July I got an email that one of my updates was viewed 500k times, for a little boat rental shop on the Great Lakes. It had been really hard to find with the former location of the marker. Another one edit in a more populated area had 1.7m views.
I’ve only made 3 edits, but I can where feedback like this could get a person make map updates as a hobby, especially if the map data still needs a lot of work. One person with some free time could have a massive impact on the maps data in their community.
If you buy the 'iPhone Max' for $1500, you get ads, and if you buy the 'iPhone Max ad-free' for $3800, you don't get any ads in the app store, apple maps, apple news, or the various other apple services you use on only that one device. Similarly, you need to buy the ad-free edition of the iPad to not get ads there, and the ad-free version of the macbook for no ads there, and each of them can cost ~2.5x the cost.
I think that would be better than a monthly subscription since you'd just pay it once and then never think about it again.
There is no way they’re making that much per phone on adding ads.
YouTube’s who platform is built to show ads and run by an ad company. They are likely going to be much more profitable than a few ads in the App Store and Maps, and I’ve read Premium users are more profitable than ad-supported users. They are charging $160/year after a recent price increase. The fee you’re suggesting would be over 14 years worth of payments.
Amazon lets users remove ads on Kindle for a 1 time fee of $20, and people keep Kindles a long time.
The goodwill alone would be worth more than $20, considering iPhones already have margin (unlike most Amazon hardware).
Apple has been using security as the tent pole feature to try and differentiate themselves from everyone else. One of the reasons all the other platforms feel insecure is that ads imply data collection. If they really want to “think different” they need to stop following the crowd and operate a system that doesn’t create the compromised incentives that ads tend to come with.
They'd have to have an iron will to not do what every other leading platform has done, which is to:
- Gradually "make the line go up" by ramping up ad volume until the product is terrible (thereby ruining Apple's reputation among the 50-90% of users who aren't paying the ad-free prices).
- Periodically nerfing the premium ad-free tiers and putting ads into tiers that were previously ad-free.
- Purposefully making the lower tiers worse and worse in order to squeeze out marginal increases in conversion rates to the premium tiers.
> Under Cook’s leadership Apple has grown from a market capitalization of approximately $350 billion to $4 trillion, representing a more than 1,000% increase, and yearly revenue has nearly quadrupled, from $108 billion in fiscal year 2011 to more than $416 billion in fiscal year 2025.
Carbon offsetting is risky. You plant a tree and you don’t know if it will die. You create a swampy area to absorb co2 and 10 years later it dries out due to global warming. Offsetting should be used if there is no other way to reduce emissions in the first place. Same is true for sucking carbon out of the air and storing it somewhere… it’s expensive and it should not be the default - we need offsetting and carbon segregation for the really unavoidable stuff
Sucking carbon out of the air using fully renewable energy (solar/wind) is a great thing to do! ... once we've fully decarbonized all other energy use and we have extra, left-over renewable energy.
Equities as large as Apple act as stores of value like gold, so it could just mean there's more money to be invested. You would need to compare Apple against what happened to the market in general.
The price over earnings (arguably an imperfect, but better way to compare stock prices against each other than using pure revenue) for Apple has been fluctuating within about a factor of 2 for the last 20 years. Since before the iPhone, people were nervous about the possibility of sustained growth of profits of the company, and the P/E was similar to today. Once Apple started making a lot more money under Tim Cook, the price was at a relative discount becauee 10 years ago people were certain (but wrong) that this run would end soon and badly. The long term stability under Cook was truly impressive. Lets see what the markets think abiut the leadership change tomorrow, but probably this is not an immediate event.
To be fair, a PE <10 didn't even represent the ground truth of customer's relationship to Apple at the time. In hindsight we have a lot more information, but in that era there was still a lingering question of whether their iPhone advantage was durable, due to Android competitors. It only later became apparent that the stickiness factor was super high.
From a correct pricing perspective, of all the companies in tech Apple seems one of the most likely to keep customers for a lifetime. They have immense lock-in and customer affinity. I don't know if the correct number is 20 or 30 or 40 but unless the economy completely tanks (which tbf is reasonably possible these days), I can only imagine a majority of their customers today will still be their customers in 15-20 years.
It's not the brand - it's not like Apple's hit this valuation in isolation Meta, Nvidia, Google, Microsoft all enjoy similar.
It's the cash-money value of putting a fee on all digital goods and subscriptions and cash transactions in a world predisposed to forming and consolidating around monopolies. What does Apple's services revenue look like in another 20 years when Africa, China and India are paying their smartphone provider every time a dollar moves, a few billion more people paying one of two companies every time for their music, movies and tv, games, books, real-world transactions... in de-facto perpetuity.
That’s a moat in hardware that is going to get even stronger over time. Given this hardware moat they can dip their toes gently into the B2B market they’ve never really cared about and pick up another few hundred billion in high margin revenue over the next 10 years no problem.
I’ve always found it weird that Apple’s entire org runs on Mac but no other Fortune 500 company on earth does. Seems like an opportunity to nibble away at Microsoft.
You want to be careful about who your customers are, and what they will do to you as an organization. Enterprise customers create enterprise teams create enterprise culture creates enterprise rot. Apple is wise to play to their strategic position as a consumer product company that lives or dies on great product, because when the buyer is the user thats what they demand.
The real strategic risk for Apple is if it overly locks-in users and falls back into complacency. The discipline of having to continually win customers with better product is ultimately the only thing that will cause them to thrive long term.
Market cap should theoretically be determined by profit, interest rates minus liabilities (see legacy auto makers). Though it's future looking, so it might be higher or lower than a simple analyst estimation. Of course, this discount meme stocks (like TSLA) which are valued by the insanity of the crowd.
This is a specious comparison at best. Apple is, at heart, a hardware company. They have different growth profiles. A consumer hardware company getting that sort of growth is mind boggling.
He destroyed my trust in Apple in ways that can't be put in numbers.
This growth comes from rent seeking. Greedy fees and lock-in they can sustain due to control of the platform and cultivated duopoly.
Apple narrative around security is patronising and deceptive, used as an excuse for removing users' freedoms (by not letting users replace Apple's services with competing ones Apple protects users from their bad choices). Very conveniently the supposedly most innovative company that is great at UX can't do better than Vista.
Apple's response to pro-consumer laws was petty, vindictive, malicious compliance.
To me Apple morphed from having premium products with excellent integration to having cross-product lock-in that maximizes money extraction from users.
And then there's Cook sucking up to Trump with a golden turd to protect next quarter's revenues. This showed that Cook had no principles more important than profit.
So much of what Apple has lost over the last 10 years is a lower bar for what counts as good enough.
You see this most obviously in software and marketing - the kinds of decisions where only a few people sign off at the end, and where "good enough" is whatever those few people decide it is. You see it less in hardware and procurement where there's a powerful review cycle and scrutiny at every level of the stack. Work there is more immediately measurable: benchmarks for performance, dollars for cost.
The "vibe" of software, or of a PDF [^1], is much harder to catch that way. There's no benchmark that flags it and most conventional executives aren't drilling down in that level of detail to see it either.
You want distributed decision-making, of course. But that only works well if it's distributed to people who've cultivated their own taste and who will make good calls under pressure. I'm not sure how much of that gets fixed by leadership change at the top. Taste isn't really something a CEO can decree into a 60,000 person org. But I've only heard good things about Ternus, so I'm optimistic. Fingers crossed for a bright new chapter.
I believe these bribes/flatteries mostly confer a single-use benefit. Things like golden trophies seem to buy a victory in that moment, but they seem to have little relevance on decisions made even a month later, regardless of who gifted it and whether they're still at the helm.
Apple silicon has been an unmitigated success so it makes sense they’d go with Ternus. On a related note Apple needs to add Ternus to their spell check dictionary
Apple Silicon wasn’t under his purview, that would be Johny Srouji.
Not saying that Ternus wouldn’t have been involved in or part of the decision making process in moving the Mac to Apple-designed silicon, but I haven’t seen any indication he was any more involved than other execs at the company.
they made a bet on EUV on better commercial terms than samsung and intel could do for themselves. another point of view is that TSMC's cost structure, of having highly educated, overworked, and wildly underpaid Taiwanese employees, is the real unmitigated success.
you could say apple silicon was almost 2 years ahead of its time, or you could say that intel lost years on bad bets. there are only 3 consumer-scale, leading node foundries in the world!
is apple a, "making good commercial terms with poor counterparties" company? yes, to their core. whether it is their employees whom they worked to the bone, their suppliers in the ASEAN trade network, or the US politicians who starkly are too broke to regulate giant US corporations, for whom too little money goes too long of a way.
my point is, who the hell knows! there are many, many points of view. it's not any one thing. but one thing's for sure, i don't think i'm upgrading my phone until it blows up anymore, and this is the simple, greatest risk to their business.
so they're going to become a company that breaks phones to get people to replace them, regardless of what they are today :)
I commend Apple for hiring someone internally...someone who climbed up the ranks and understands the DNA of the company.
Also think it's cool that John Ternus has only a bachelor's degree with a very down to earth presence. I completely dig his LI page being really bare bones.
I suspect Apple is about to experience another Renaissance era...
That people are still judging someone by their school performance (or, less charitably but how I experienced the difference between "poor" and "good" students in about half of the cases: their willingness to deal with arbitrarily set requirements) after being in the workforce for this long says a lot about society. I'm not sure it's a factor when one is comparing devices in a store, which ultimately is what they created right? Shouldn't we judge them by their work?
Plus his degree is in mechanical engineering. I wonder how he climbed up the ranks of hardware engineering with a degree in mechanical engineering. Quite amazing.
People skills are primarily learned through observation, interaction, and modeling the behavior of others who have already have cultivated social skills. You know, from being around and interacting with people. It's not like studying a certain discipline, such a mathematics, forbids you from ever cultivating these abilities.
Mech E. on the other hand, is perhaps the broadest engineering discipline in terms of foundational principles, application variety, and transferable skills. So shouldn't be all that surprising when it comes to hardware engineering.
15 years of supply chain excellence and the software running on that hardware quietly got worse every cycle. the m1 transition was so clean it made everyone else look like they were guessing. ternus thinks in tolerances and thermal envelopes - giving the keys to someone who's already pulled off the hardest platform migration in apple's recent history seems right.
The m1 transition was clean, and the hardware is amazing, don't get me wrong (I just bought a neo and I'm very happy with it). But the transition did look even more amazing than it should have because of just how dogshit Intel macs had gotten, especially around thermal throttling. Apple could have built much nicer systems on Intel already had they just made them slightly thicker and used sensible heatsink and fan designs for the hardware they were putting in them.
(We're seeing echoes of that again now where you can get 20-30% performance bumps in Neos and Airs just by sticking a thermal pad on the CPU - Apple is still allergic to cooling, they've just built amazingly efficient hardware that sidesteps the problem)
To make the M1 transition so clean took a lot of software excellence...one can argue Apple's compiler / virtualization / software languages team is the best in the industry (grumbling from Swift UI developers aside...)
They’ve done a few impressive things also, remember that time they converted the root filesystem on every ios device on the fly with a point release? Kudos to whoever clicked that particular button I’d have bricked it personally ;)
Cook is known to be monk-like, so the relative quiet of this announcement is no surprise. Hopefully Ternus takes some risks and revisits some things from scratch (the OS layer)[0] rather than continuing down the path of more service add-ons that Cook seemed to be excitedly geared up for. Personally, it's worth noting that Ternus did -not- directly oversee the Vision Pro, which is encouraging.
[0] As Steve Jobs said in 2005: "OS X is the most advanced operating system on the planet and it has set Apple up for the next 20 years."
How incredibly prophetic that 21 years later, MacOS is suddenly showing its age.
That's like saying going to Washington DC at all is "politics."
It'd be bad business stewardship if he didn't; bad for shareholders, ultimately.
It looks silly optically, but it's plain to see that Apple has trump nailed psychologically. And it worked! They knew what was needed to get an administration to support the company in meaningful ways.
Same difference. "I spent millions/billions that could have been avoided because I did not want to appear to degrade myself" doesn't sell very well to stakeholders. The CEO should do what is in the best interests of the company, and in the US when Mr Trump is president, it is in the best interests of the company to bend the knee.
So you think he is a Trump supporter, then? I would have guessed precisely the opposite. My assumption is that the trophy was his way of looking out for the best interests of Apple. In that regard probably a fairly good ROI.
Case in point? From what I've read he's reserved, keeps a very low profile, and is dedicated to his work. We know next to nothing about his personal life.
He reportedly had to essentially be dragged into a new home, as he was still staying in a small apartment nearby the HQ even after Jobs passed away. Dude just didn't give a shit about anything but Apple.
Is this a reward for a job well-done? Because apple hardware for the last 5-years has been amazing. The software though has sucked - will it be more years of amazing hardware and shit software? In other words focusing on developers, especially of llm software? I'm fine with that. Maybe we'll get rack-mountable apple ai servers (joking - apple servers were great and lasted a decade+ but went nowhere)
Yeah, what's going on? I'm confused by this choice - I would have expected a marketer. Maybe they really are doubling down on hardware for the ai age?
I hope Ternus can turn this ship. Apple wasted the last 5 years without any significant innovation/revolution or even without significant evolution. No groundbreaking change from iphone 12 pro in current iphone 17 pro.
Before we had many groundbreaking features that redefined how you use smarphone:
- gps
- flashlight (yes everybody with flashlight in the pocket!)
- front selfie camera + video calls
- compass + accelerometer + gyroscope
- good wide and ultrawide (video) camera
- nfc + apple pay
- fingerprint / faceid
- esim
- magsafe
Now you can have iphone 12 pro and don't miss much from iphone 17 pro.
Every time I see this argument, it comes across as lazy. iPhone (and smartphones in general) are a mature product, so of course it'll be iterative. But you can't compare the camera from the first few iPhones to the latest ones. I certainly didn't expect, when the first iPhone launched, that the camera on an iPhone would replace my dedicated camera for 90% of my use cases.
OP also complained about the "lack of significant evolution", that's why I gave those examples.
Like the brands I've mentioned, Apple buys their camera sensors (from Sony), battery, and display. And yet they don't have the best camera sensors, the newer higher capacity batteries, the latest display tech, etc.
You can go 2 or 3 iterations before seeing a real improvement, and it's not always because better tech doesn't exist. They're just not pushing hard.
Shipping hundreds of millions of new phones every year isn't pushing hard while earning billions? Near every single company in the world would die to have Apple's balance sheet.
Apple Silicon in the past 5 years has trounced every single market player. Apple has to make decisions on things like sensors based on the supplier being able to deliver hundreds of millions annually -- by the time we see the hardware it was baked and locked in over 12 months ago.
In the areas I specifically mentioned? No, they don't push that hard.
Apple introduced 48MP camera sensors many years after they became available. For the past 2 or 3 years, there have been devices with much better cameras, but again, they're not iPhones. Some phones have been charging at peak 40-100W for a while, so when you look at Apple's 30-40W, it's not that impressive, is it? In a year or so they may release a foldable phone, but Samsung is already on the 7th iteration of the Fold. And so on.
It doesn't make their SoCs less impressive (typing this on a M4 Mac!) or the shipping of so many devices a lesser feat, but Apple is very conservative with iPhones, and that's very apparent when you look at all phones out there.
> iPhone (and smartphones in general) are a mature product, so of course it'll be iterative.
That's the kind of thing people say when they are out of ideas. The reality is that the mobile phone market was already a mature market, with Nokia as the leader, even before the iPhone was released. Then Steve Jobs showed the world how to innovate.
Don't forget about the Apple Car. 100% of that failed, and Tim spent a decade on it. Quite a bit of attention on here, but it seems we've quickly forgotten all about it since it was never seen.
Apple was wise to get out of the EV business. It's very expensive in terms of factories, regulation etc and not very profitable. They had no first mover advantage, government backing or legacy advantage.
What's the best case scenario? Make few billion a year fuzzed with long term warranty liabilities? That might sound nice, but for apple their companion products like AirPods or the Apple Watch easily clear much better profit. Putting their corporate effort into another companion product is more economically sensible and far less risky.
Maybe this is reductive but I always suspected the car project was a Jony Ive indulgence.
In the years after Jobs' death, Ive was pampered as many people attributed Apple's vision and taste to Jobs #1 and Ive #2. Losing both would've trashed the stock and Apple's reputation at that time.
Ive loves watches and cars. Despite launching the Apple Watch with a $10k+ gold version and a heavy fashion emphasis (another Ive indulgence), it fortunately became a viable product but more due to the health and fitness features.
I just don't think Apple goes down the car path without Ive at his most outsized influence at that time. But Ive wanted to put his mark on the automobile.
Now he's doing it for Ferrari but in a much more traditional sense. Buttons and switches instead of entirely touchscreen, human drivers and not driverless, etc.
Absolutely! At the very minimum, an Apple EVSE would have been a shippable product. But no, Tim couldn't even get that after 10 years, thousands of dedicated employees, and hundreds of millions of dollars spent.
Apple spent $1 billion over 10 years doing the ground work to see whether or not they wanted to get into making a car and that’s a problem?
Google is gonna spend between February and December 2026 $185 billion on their AI technology, and how much has Microsoft spent somewhere near 100 billion dollars or how about OpenAI (we don’t know yet) but that number will be my numbing or Meta which is some where in the $80 billion mark.
Tim Cook has nothing to worry about Apple didn’t squander billions of dollars they put the money where they should’ve put it in Apple Silicon and everything else they do well.
Google got a $1 billion refund and OpenAI got nothing. I’m sure Sam thought when he went into the meeting with Tim Cook that he was gonna come out with $50 billion and he came out with zip. Apple made the right choice.
Looking at the state of EVs nowadays, I'd say Apple dodged a huge bullet. EV is no special without self-driving and also batteries literally become trash after a few years.
yes they innovated with apple sillicon but I would say it only shines in macOS environment. On iOS / iPadOS it's completely untapped - like having ferrari with only gravel roads around.
The level of power in the iPad, and the level of underutilization of that power due to it being handicapped by the OS is mindboggling to me. Although to some extent it makes sense - with Apple owning the whole supply chain it probably wouldn't actually save them much money to make a less powerful chip just to put in it, and they need selling points for the top end models.
And yet it is the best tablet you can buy on the planet top to bottom software and hardware, is it perfect no, what is this phantom alternative to an iPad M4 Pro? Note I already have a desktop computer. I don’t need two of the same thing in short I don’t need Mac OS on two devices.
> I hope Ternus can turn this ship. Apple wasted the last 5 years without any significant innovation/revolution or even without significant evolution. No groundbreaking change from iphone 12 pro in current iphone 17 pro.
I daresay the iPhone 17 Pro is a compelling enough upgrade, hardware wise. Not much innovation, but their phone hardware is very usable.
But I'd prefer if Apple gave up 2 years of trying to "innovate" nonsense like Liquid glAss and polish up their software first, just like the old days.
The way you phrased it about changing how you use a phone, I was expecting you control a lot of the phone via the camera somehow (gestures?) and don't need to bother with the pesky touchscreen. But okay no it's just the camera button that has been on cameras and other phones since time immemorial
John Ternus really did turn the Mac around. The last 5 or so years of the Intel era were a disaster. Hopefully he will be able to turn things around with software too.
I think it's interesting that the handoff will be complete on Sept 1. That would mean Ternus will helm his first iPhone launch that month. Auspicious timing. Curious the math they calculated when landing on this date. Certainly tees him up for an early win if the products are well-received.
My guess is that they'll release something impressive in September, and they want to give Ternus an early win as you said. Maybe a new completely product or Vision Air.
I have been wanting this for Apple for a while. They are very “boring” when it comes to risk and pushing forward the way Steve Jobs did. I really think they have a lot of potential they are missing out on.
I still hope they eventually sell server blades for macOS.
The main problems regular people have when it comes to their phones/macs today isn't that they're boring, it's that the software is buggy and inconsistent, and generally just seems a disservice to the otherwise industry leading hardware.
I'd rather they fix that first than cater to the hardware enthusiasts yearning for some breakthrough new-paradigm design.
Xserve was their big explicit enterprise push. Blades as a whole ended up as something of a niche. Hyperconverged is probably where we've ended up from there for the most part but it's not a big slice of the market.
Apple's big win was that consumer basically became enterprise. There was lots of noise around formal BYOD but in many/most places it just happened whether IT was on-board or not.
So? That's a 11X market cap increase. In the same time, MSFT saw a 14X increase, Google saw a 20X increase, Amazon did 28X, Facebook did 35X. We're not even going to talk about NVidia.
Cook led Apple through a period where every tech company expanded. Yay for him?
How many companies on that list make money by manufacturing a physical product and selling it to customers? How many other consumer goods companies 11x their market cap? How many other consumer goods companies have revenues remotely approaching Apple?
The business you mention are pure service / zero marginal cost businesses, and in that time internet usage has expanded both in reach and depth (it is being used for more things in more places), so their opportunity for profits has grown. Apple turns aluminium and silica into a laptop. They didn't even miss a beat during COVID.
Yay for Tim Cook for scaling this to the absolute behemoth of supply chain and manufacturing that modern Apple is.
You are cherry picking here - Why not include Intel, Samsung, Sony, HP or Dell etc on your list? Why include Facebook but not Twitter?
We are talking about the third largest company in the world by market cap - growing an additional 3X isn't particularly feasible (that would have made them twice the size of the next largest company).
Particularly with the hardware category it's easier to drop the ball and fumble rather than stay on top - just see Nokia or Rim.
It is very hard to evaluate Apple as a single entity. Certain branches of the company did great in the latest 10 years: the chips division being the most obvious one but in general hardware did well. Software received a lot less love, and in general deteriorated, but the really terrible performance was the products division. Then there is the horror story of Apple software stores and services.
Apple is held to a different standard. Tahoe is bad because it's ugly and has inconsistent corner radii. Meanwhile Windows has multiple critical issues e.g. Windows update induced instability.
Apple's hardware and silicon divisions are considered good not because they're competitive, but because they're uncompetitive. They keep cranking out products that far surpass their competitors. Apple is reduced to announcing the fastest CPU core in the world in a press release spec bump, every year.
Even if Tahoe is a regression from the high bar Apple set with Sequoia, it's still the best OS for regular people (sorry Linux but you know it's true). Apple's software is bad because it's merely best-in-class and not light years ahead.
Tim Cook’s experience in logistics built Apple into the global hegemon it is today. I hope John Ternus’s experience with hardware can kick off a renaissance in both Apple hardware and software design. Mind you, Apple hardware is already amazing, but hopefully it can be even better with Ternus at the helm. Apple software is terrible, and hopefully Ternus can turn that around. I’m also hoping, without any evidence, that maybe a change in leadership will change how Apple participates in US politics.
EDIT: I also want to say I really appreciate Tim Cook’s emphasis on user privacy and I hope John Ternus can continue this trend.
I too deeply appreciate the commitment to user privacy they've demonstrated. Their head of user privacy is a man of integrity and commitment.
At the same time, privacy on internet-connected devices is like true liberty and justice -- rare, precious, fragile, and easily lost without active pursuit and sacrifice.
I hope Temus has the courage and principle to keep fighting the good fight.
Curious as an outsider what you mean with US politics? Seems like Apple has a pretty strong stance when it comes to things like privacy that pushes back on some things (that could be smoke and mirrors though I guess).
The privacy is more of a market position thing than it is a political thing.
Apple has led the industry on hardware but is woefully behind on the software and services front. Focusing on device-level privacy controls turns what would be a gap into a moat, and it helps deprive Google and other services from monetizing their customer base.
Not to say that it's not something the company is passionate about - but it's also good for their business. Especially when you compare it to things like human rights, transparency, and security research where Apple could take a stronger stand but don't.
> The privacy is more of a market position thing than it is a political thing.
It is a market position, but companies do have some choice in which market positions they choose to take. And I wouldn't underestimate the effect of the personal views of the CEO in that.
If you’re referring to their AI services being ‘woefully behind’, that’s just a market sector that they’ve chosen not to focus too much effort on. That was a sensible gamble too, given how unpredictable that sector is five years after it was released.
I’m not sure what else they are behind on frankly, as their current offerings have been extremely stable from day dot.
How many products has Google released and killed in the past 20 years? Apple managed to land on a good thing with Apple iTunes and iPhotos in the early oughts, and managed to transition those core services into Apple Music and iCloud with little to no disruption to users. iCloud is generally a pretty predictable service that delivers on a core set of user requirements very well.
Also, thief productivity suite isn’t meant to completely replace Office, and for a free package, it meets many users needs perfectly fine.
> That was a sensible gamble too, given how unpredictable that sector is five years after it was released.
Define sensible. Apple's B2C margins are peanuts compared to what Nvidia's commanding right now, and they're both ARM retailers competing for the same cutting-edge fab space.
Are you referring to any security features in particular? There's a new zero-click exploit every 6 months for iOS, and NSO Group is showing no signs of slowing.
“Capitulating to the current regime on everything is in shareholder’s best interests” is neither a foregone conclusion nor a statement of fact. It’s economic myopia at best.
Let me be clear - I'm not happy about it. But ignoring such a reality reminds me of that quote comparing Job's best friend to a lawnmower.
That said, I'd love to enlightened to how it's myopic, or rather, what course(s) of action you would take, keeping in mind that Apple is a multi-trillion dollar public company.
I’m telling you that thinking a->b is myopic. It could be that shareholder value would’ve been higher had Tim Cook told Trump (or Biden, or Trump, or Obama) to go fuck himself. Perhaps the people who spend money on iPhones, specifically, would’ve been more inclined to buy a new iProduct, than they are now that he’s bent the knee.
Myopia is thinking “well he did it so it must have been good”. There are myriad other things he could’ve done, that have a strong argument towards higher shareholder value.
Edit to add: Think TSLA, if you want a concrete example. If that stock was at all trading on fundamentals (and if they had a remotely capable or competent board) and not Magic Memes, Musk’s hard right pivot was inarguably bad for the brand and shareholder value, even if it made the President temporarily happy.
Given that Apple is doing well, the onus is on someone claiming that Apple would have done better, having a strong argument.
Not "could" have done better, because things could obviously have gone better, worse, or anything else, given any substantive or random difference. Could means nothing.
(And I say this as someone very disappointed with how Cook handled that.)
Ah, "If you can't definitively and completely prove a negative then you're wrong (but also I'm like, totally not carrying water for those people)" is definitely not a weak opinion, though.
That said, maybe you should read the discussion a bit more carefully before jumping in with "OMG PROOOOOOF" or whatever the fuck this was supposed to be? The entire, plain English discussion, revolved around one thing not being the only possible "fact" just because it happened. None of the posts were particularly long, and none used challenging words.
My point isn’t that anyone’s view is wrong. I can’t make that claim either.
I hate what Cook did.
I would be happy and open to anyone who can point out how Apple was supposed to handle the actual threat of major tariffs in their components and systems better than he did.
But simply asserting a counter factual, a plausible way it might have been better, isn’t that. What would Cook be expected to do with that?
But what?
Not dismissing that there was a better way. There must be. It’s very worthwhile figuring out, even as a counter factual. That’s how we all learn.l
Not judging anyone. My answer is just or even more weak! I have really thought about this too, and come up with nothing so far.
(I appreciate and take note that my comment didn’t communicate my point well enough. It’s important to recognize weak reasoning. But that wasn’t meant to discourage, or show a lack of respect for another person’s efforts. I want a better answer too.)
> Myopia is thinking “well he did it so it must have been good”.
You're writing words that I did not say or imply.
The point is going against any (current) admin is almost always bad for a publicly traded company. Any public entity is going to have to have extremely good reasons to "fight back", how doing so is good for business. As a CEO of such an entity you're having to answer to many people who want a concrete plan and a belief in your strategy.
In the first rodeo, when all this was novel, it was believed such social signaling would pay off. Obviously silicon valley as a whole no longer feels this way.
TSLA is an outlier being grounded more on some superior man theory, that Apple did have in the past w/ Jobs, who is no longer there. Religious fervor stuff. It doesn't really apply. Rational moves here, please.
> There are myriad other things he could’ve done, that have a strong argument towards higher shareholder value
This is what I asked you to expound on. Please state a few.
Most shareholders may not care beyond the next quarter, but CEO action that led to those results were made couple of years ago at least, and current action will do as much to determine not the next quarter, but one slightly further in the future. Hence Jamie Dimon, for example, making a different decision in a similar matter. As Dimon explained: “[…] we have to be very careful about how anything is perceived, and also how the next DOJ is going to deal with it. So, we’re quite conscious of risks we bear by doing anything that looks like buying favors or anything like that”[1].
It's less than the other tech CEOs who seem to evade criticism on HN. Elon literally worked for Trump, accomplished nothing, and ended up just leaking everyone's social security data. Thiel and Palantir are profiting from war and building out the surveillance state. Bezos made a $75M documentary about Melania. Larry Ellison took over TikTok US to squelch any criticism of US and Zionist war atrocities.
Depending on who you talk to, this could go either way. Some people want big companies to champion their own political ideals on a larger stage and think Apple should do more. Others would say Apple should stay out of it, after things like their gift to Trump[0], for example.
Tapping a hardware guy as CEO sends a good signal, at least to me, looking in from the outside. The company is leading from its strength, and getting back to its roots. I wonder how Woz feels today, seeing this.
But somewhere in the mix, Apple could also really use another great product mind, like the other Steve. It has been too long since the last era-defining product from Cupertino.
I have no idea what that next big thing would be. And of course, a bad product mind in charge is worse than none at all! If the next big leaps come from other companies while Apple just keeps doing what it does best in the hardware categories that it already dominates, then I guess that's fine, too.
If they are going to tap a HW guy as CEO, the next big thing should be giving exec comp and positions to every member of the Asahi Linux team, and putting them in charge of SW at Apple.
No don’t waste any time on Linux, Apple memory independence, clustering and moving on to M5, M6, M7, and beyond, a technocrat in charge yes, hopefully Apple will continue to iterate across the software ecosystems and the hardware systems.
I wasn’t arguing everything be thrown out, just that a competent group be put in charge, and also that they open the HW up so there is competition on the SW side.
If you put third party support under macos leadership or next to it on the org chart, it’d be systematically sabotaged to death. That org hasn’t delivered anything useful in a decade (“useful” == “a user might notice and care”), so there’s no evidence current leadership could ship leadshot from a wet paper bag, even if they wanted to.
Also, they’d nearly double their laptop share overnight if they did this, and it’d cost them 10-20 FTEs.
Cook was a steward of Apple as an offshored manufacturing behemoth. I'm looking forward to where this reset goes. Hopefully better and American made products.
The privacy focus is why Apple is dominant today, keep that up.
Pricing is based on customer value and restriction of customer options.
If we're paying $1000 for a Chinese phone that we'd pay $2000 for, we'll end up paying that price when the manufacturers have finally starved the professional capability to compete from the rest of the world. As we get closer to that point, the urgency to onshore is increasing.
Exploitation when we can get away with it is in our social nature as humans. So this isn't about the Chinese, or any other culture. It's just necessary for this to be onshored because it's critical.
> we'll end up paying that price when the manufacturers have finally starved the professional capability to compete from the rest of the world
What does this look like, in practice? Once China and India and Vietnam "starve the professional capability to compete" (presumably in the manufacture of smart phones) from the US, what would actually change and why?
This would be a world where the top talent and training capability for that talent lives there. Our universities would have deteriorated, our professional class at this top level would have died off or relocated over there. Probably an example I can think of is the once great textile industry of Britain that is now in Asia.
I can only speak to corporate use, but the most common issues I saw were battery life, charging port issues, and speaker failures, in that order. I managed about 1200 for about 2 years and I'd get 1-3 of those issues a week. I'd say 25% of the time it required a replacement. Average age 2.5 years.
That’s repairable for cheaper that buying a new one, isn’t it? Perhaps the rationale is that it’s cheaper because the resell price offset the repair price?
Yeah you get a few bucks back from recyclers or your carrier but also having to inventory phones and track them is a pain in the ass and requires staff to manage. Much easier to just toss it and send em a new one next day.
For all the faults of these companies, their founders and CEOs, I genuinely believe the world would have been a bit of a sadder place without companies like Apple and Google. That’s not something I can say about most companies (Microsoft), and honestly, there are companies I think the world would be better off without entirely (Oracle).
When is the last time you used Windows 11? I begrudgingly have to run it on my gaming PC and almost every time it's a frustrating experience where I want to put my fist through my monitor. Absolutely awful, zero taste, that will-do software. Windows explorer I believe is still single threaded, the integration of OneDrive into everything (my desktop is stored in OneDrive for some reason) with little to no way to undo it. Don't even get me started on Copilot. My blood pressure just rose off the charts.
> As executive chairman, Cook will assist with certain aspects of the company, including engaging with policymakers around the world.
This gives me the impression that at least for the near-term, Cook will still be the one groveling to the Trump White House. Whatever you think about that, that's probably helpful for Ternus' dealings with the next administration.
My personal favorite is the force-touch home button on the previous generation iPhones and iPads wouldn't work if you were wearing a band-aid. I don't mean the fingerprint reader, it wouldn't even click. So don't ever cut yourself if you were planning to unlock your phone ever. It added basically nothing for the end user over the previous physical home button besides rendering the vibrate function wimpy and useless.
Home button issues were one of the most common hardware problems on iPhones <7. The haptic button evaporated an entire class of critical failures, hardly a blunder.
Don't forget that to shut down an iPhone, you need to remember the secret button combination. Of course holding the power button down doesn't shut it off. Why would it? That's just a standard held by EVERY OTHER ELECTRONIC DEVICE IN EXISTENCE.
Man, I love Apple, but their stupidity is beyond baffling sometimes. No Siri updates for 10 years, making the hardware harder to use, single-handed use is no longer as easy or comfortable, and they haven't done... anything(?) revolutionary in AGES. Their latest gaff was the Neo - a phone stretched out as much as possible to make a "laptop". They couldn't even bother to make the logo shiny on it, it was such a departure from true Apple style. Let's not forget the 92 lenses on the back of the phone that stick out a quarter inch, a screen that's nearly impossible to replace, and the hilariously pathetic "iphone repair kit" they lend you.
I have zero confidence in this guy. Nothing he had oversight over has gone well, as far as I'm concerned.
I admire how Tim Cook participates in US politics. He is doing the most while giving the least. I would do the same in his position, he is making the best of a difficult situation, and it is his duty to protect his company and employees.
Giving a golden statue of Trump has no effect on you and me, and a very large effect on Trump. He is gaining significant political capital while giving up nothing that matters (feel free to correct if I am wrong). Contrast with every other tech executive, lawyer, and university dean in America, most of whom have been cowed into compromising on their deepest values, or even worse, have done so without hesitation. I cannot think of many tech execs whom history will be kinder towards.
I'd be careful normalizing bribery. It's very micro-efficient, almost definitionally, but the macro effects of normalized bribery are well known and not good.
> Giving a golden statue of Trump has no effect on you and me, and a very large effect on Trump.
Bribery hurts everyone else following the law. It erodes public trust. All of us are definitely hurt by Trump's extreme and obvious levels of corruption.
I agree, but I'm taking as an axiom that some amount of bribery (tribute, really) had to be done, that Apple could avoid massive government retribution. In that lens, this bribery, while bad, is the least destructive form it could have taken. It being so gaudy actually helps this case.
> Giving a golden statue of Trump has no effect on you and me, and a very large effect on Trump.
No effect on you, really. You aren’t affected by gas prices or tariffs? They are bowing down and participating in Trump’s patronage schemes. Every powerful person who does this is complicit with all the horrible things done by the Trump administration. They are endorsing Trump and his ilk with their behavior if not their words, which allows and encourages him to continue his fraud and abuse.
Trump is the president. People voted him into the Office. Tim Cook didn't give him the golden statue before he is in the Office.
Everyone in the United States is complicit to the horrible things done by the Trump administration by your logic. I partially agree, but I also think burning Apple to the ground will not be Tim Cook's legacy and he is in no place to go against the executive branch.
It is not about Trump, it is about the corrupted executive branch. Tim didn't do any crime against humanity in his act.
No, before Trump 2 nobody would’ve taken bribes and gifts so openly like this. It’s not even in the same league and it’s some really self-serving argumentation to pretend otherwise.
Every complicity is another nail in the coffin of our democracy.
If a cop says your problems go away for $100, you pay it, because the downside is huge by comparison. The problem is the cop getting away with it, not that you paid the bribe.
I hope you’re not comparing a gold trophy to a straight up bribe. It’s like giving Trump your Noble peace prize.
Having the prize doesn’t make you the winner. But it feeds Trumps ego sooooooo muuuuuch, it’s probably the “best” thing you can do to get on his good side without actually giving him anything.
That's a lawful FBI. This is a lawless executive branch. As we all know by now, executive branch has a lot a power that cannot be limited by Congress nor the Courts and erasing a few zeros from 4T market valuation is a piece of cake (as we witnessed daily how they moved billions around the market to their favorite inside traders).
> Everyone in the United States is complicit to the horrible things done by the Trump administration by your logic.
This is a ridiculous strawman. I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume ignorance instead of malice.
I wrote that going above and beyond to curry favor with an autocrat in order to protect your profits is collaboration.
And you read, what? Existing under a government means you necessarily support it because there was an election? You do understand an election means some people voted the other way, right?
He's not an autocrat precisely because there was an election. He won the election because he got the most votes. He has since failed to do most things he campaigned on because his power is very limited by virtue of our government's structure.
Sorry for dropping the implied “wannabe” in autocrat, I figured HN commenters would be smart enough to infer that based on context. He is pushing and breaking boundaries on every front. No, he never accomplished any of the outlandish promises he made about the economy because he was lying and his team is incompetent, same reason the Iran war is a disaster. Project 2025 has been going pretty damn well though.
What contrast is there? Tech executives capitulated to Trump's demands, and Tim Cook did the exact same thing. The problem doesn't start and stop with the gold trophy, it encompasses things like European legislation, labor/union laws, and complex supply chains that Apple needs federal support to manage. There are convoluted motives here, and the bizzaro FIFA trophies are only the tip of the iceberg.
It's fair to say there is not much contrast. But he's kept Apple's DEI and climate commitments in place even after being attacked directly, while Zuckerberg, Musk and Altman are proactively broadcasting right-wing talking points, sometimes pre-emptively. Yes, Cook gave $1 million, but Brockman gave $25 million, and Musk gave much, much more.
We don't know what deals Cook and Trump have made with each other, we've just seen the byproduct of their relations on the political stage. Nothing Cook did during his tenure de-risked Apple from the consequences of a worsening political state in the US. When the tides turn towards authoritarianism, Apple turns towards compliance. They've done it for both Trump admins.
Cynically speaking, Cook is wise to keep the DEI and climate commitments as bartering chits for Apple's next leadership to forfeit. He knows that Apple needs leverage to get their druthers from the Fed.
When you say you don't know something about one actor in an equation, you must apply the same thinking to every other actor. It's not useful to go on the path you're going down.
> Giving a golden statue of Trump has no effect on you and me, and a very large effect on Trump. He is gaining significant political capital while giving up nothing that matters (feel free to correct if I am wrong).
He personally donated at least a million dollars to Trump's inauguration, plus whatever to the campaign.
He also donated to Kamala Harris campaign. He would also donate to the next Democratic president for their inauguration if they still choose to do this corruptive thing. And your point is?
Apple's hardware (at least when it comes to their best selling products) is behind the times though.
Relatively old and small camera sensors, no new battery tech and falling behind manufacturers using silicon-carbon (most evident on the mediocre iPhone Air battery runtime), no design innovation, no alternative form factors etc
Siri was pretty bad, though it's noticeably better recently.
But MacOS is excellent IMO, and Apple's office suite is still my favorite (and I've worked extensively on Win/Lin/Mac for the past 25 years). I can't say I have any more gripes about their SW than most others.
>Mind you, Apple hardware is already amazing, but hopefully it can be even better with Ternus at the helm. Apple software is terrible, and hopefully Ternus can turn that around.
It used to be the other way around, nice software and mediocre hardware.
The problem with Apple software is they stop competition where it makes them money through lock-in. Apple ARM CPUs are great, but the GPUs do leave things to be desired, and they stop competition there too on their platforms.
> I also want to say I really appreciate Tim Cook’s emphasis on user privacy and I hope John Ternus can continue this trend.
You're kidding right? News [1] just broke about how Apple's permanent notification storage (that they refuse to fix) undermines encryption and is being exploited by law enforcement. And they conveniently left out the fact that they were giving out push notification data to law enforcement without any warrants from their transparency reports [2]. And these are just from the top of my head.
Do we now presume all companies putting the word privacy on their ads are emphasizing privacy? Because Meta and Google does that too.
Wow, the worst example of violation of privacy is...(wait for it) local push notification storage being plaintext. We already bought it, no need to sell more Apple product to us!
Really what apple is doing is putting a spin on their core business model of selling users the technology rather than renting it to them by subsidizing its development through spying.
It's not so much that privacy is apple's goal, but rather privacy is inherent to apple's business model (unlike google, which has always been spyware).
I feel like Apple's biggest challenges these next 10 years will be logistics, being able to create or take advantage of additional redundancy in the supply chain for their major components.
With Ternus being the new CEO don’t be surprised if Apple takes a more active role in designing around the three Stooges of memory and bring it (the design and engineering) in house like the rest of the Apple Silicon chips.
re: US Politics, I view Apple's gift of the gold & glass trophy to Trump more as a humiliation ritual Cook had to endure so that they can continue to uphold their principles, but with a less adversarial government.
Sure it's gross but it does not necessarily signal an abandonment of values from Apple.
Disagree. Trump is 100% willing and apparently able to crush American businesses unless they kneel. If watching a movie and giving him a gold toilet seat bought off that extortionist it was probably the cheapest any tech firm got off. Cook made the right call not to let Apple get destroyed by our whimsical overlord.
Yet he keeps going to his parties and schmoozing with his cronies. I don't recall Pichai or Nadella giving Trump a gold trinket to save their businesses.
Apple under Tim Cook stopped innovating, entirely. If Steve was stil alive he'd still be competing we'd probably have Safari on Windows to this day... and cheaper computers (like the NEO but with upgradeable RAM)
> If Steve was stil alive he'd still be competing we'd probably have Safari on Windows to this day... and cheaper computers (like the NEO but with upgradeable RAM)
I don't think your fantasy that Steve would have staunchly defended upgradable RAM in the past decade has much grounding in reality. It seems entirely likely that he would have supported the switch to LPDDR to enable better battery life, higher performance and thinner form factors at the cost of sacrificing that upgradability.
The software being good and it being used in a product consumers wanted are two very different things.
What did you think you were asking? Or was this just a lame, ill-conceived gotcha that probably needed another few hours in the oven before being chucked in the garbage?
The Apple Vision still needs to get two or three times better preferably with an M6 or M6 processor, whoops, more memory, faster SSD, thunderbolt five etc. oh and it needs to be $1500 Hmm… not possible for another two years? With better software.
And to do that more than likely the engineering and design of memory systems probably needs to come in house. No more outside dependency.
The hardware is best than class in both software and hardware by a mile who is this other company Meta or is it Microsoft with a HoloLens? Long-term iteration is the only way the Apple Vision Pro will get better if it took 13 years to come up with an M1 processor beginning to end and six years to have your first working modem that can be used in a smartphone there are no shortcuts long hard iteration is the only way.
They re-write many apps every few years as part of their major design changes. These re-writes inevitably introduce lots of little bugs in uncommon workflows, and they often jettison whole features like AppleScript integration that cause real problems with users. They then spend a couple of years fixing the worst of these bugs, and things die down. Until the next UI-driven re-write.
I will admit they change and depreciate APIs like crazy, but do you have any examples of features or AppleScript being jettisoned that were not fixed? The issue that stands out to me was the once in 17 year 2019 cut-off for 32 bit apps with a lacking Quicktime X and Final Cut X, but even then the plan then was to get everything back up to snuff quickly.
I read a Gruber article recently that when Messages went Catalyst he had no issues with his AppleScript at all.
Because there are so many bugs that it makes me wonder if Apple Execs ever use their own software.
For example, on MacOS, you can set an app to be on all spaces. But on reboot, despite that setting, it will stick to a single space, until you relaunch the app. It has been this way for 4-5 major OS versions.
Well, if you're asking if apple execs use that setting, the answer is probably that they don't.
I think the issue is that there are SO many piled up little features everywhere that SOMEone is using that keeping everything working while making any changes at all is very difficult.
I am a fan of more wood behind fewer swings. Don't add something like spaces unless you think you've got something so good that you are confident that it will be the common path.
It's all been downhill since snow leopard IMO. Maybe I've just become cynical and jaded over the years, but I don't remember the last time I was excited for a new OS feature. Meanwhile the UX gets worse and worse with every new release. e.g. Tahoes janky corners, the dumbed down System Preferences app, random bugs that apple hasn't fixed for years, etc
When was the last time you used the clusterf* that is iTunes on windows?
Or more generically answer the question: how can I get an arbitrary audio file into my iTunes music? (hint: good luck)
Music 'synced' with iTunes but not appearing on my other devices? There must be some kind of arbitrary difference between 'synced with iTunes' and 'synced with iCloud'. I guarantee this is some kind of (barely) maintained legacy syncing to keep the iTunes workflow alive specifically so Apple can avoid giving users a modern 'import to my cloud library' feature.
Ssh server doesn't make sense for an iPhone. How would that even work? It wouldn't be able to do anything or be a worse experience than something properly designed for the user rather than trying to force a 50 year old computing model onto a phone.
You say this matter of factly and yet I've seen countless people talk about using termux more than a desktop shell.
Maybe iPhone is different but most phones you can connect a keyboard to, making the shell pretty usable. Not my cup of tea but I have tried it. I'm still holding out on the dream that a good Linux phone might exist one day.
In the grand scheme of things very little people use Termux on Android out of the billions of people who use Android. Additionally Termux's design is not aligned with Android's app model which has caused many headaches for them. Trying to force a terminal to exist on a phone is possible but it is being forced and is not a natural product that would exist if one was trying to design the best user experience.
I’ve heard this but it doesn’t make much sense to me. People see the shit software, and they think “Apple software is shit.” I don’t think they think “This software is only shit because I’m on Windows, I better switch to Mac and run (basically) the same software there.”
That's an extremely low bar, Windows has been shit for a long time and has basically only degraded. Some people think Windows 10 was good, it wasn't, they just haven't used Windows for long enough.
Apple software isn't bad, but it is often obtuse and buggy. And, with iOS 26, usability has taken a big hit.
On macOS when I alt-tab to a full-screen app it takes forever. On KDE when I alt-tab to a full-screen app it's instantaneous.
On macOS when I connect or disconnect an external monitor, my applications get all confused on where they should display, especially if I then reconnect a monitor. On KDE when I unplug my monitor everything goes nicely onto one desktop. When I put a monitor back in, everything goes back to where it was before. It just works.
On macOS, every time I install a new program I need to do some dance with System preferences to allow it to run. I tried some command line settings that supposedly disables this, but it never sticks. Every few months, the process is different than it was before. On KDE, I just run my software and it works.
On macOS, I don't have useful window snapping behavior or full-screen behavior, nor am I able to have focus follow my mouse. On KDE, I have these.
macOS just doesn't work for me. But the competitors have a good solution.
Why not? People choose their tools by criteria that matter to their use cases. For some, alt-tab behavior doesn't matter. For others it's a primary pain point.
Computing should be personal. Some people like to mold their tools to their way of working. Others adapt their way of working to their tools. KDE is for the former, and macOS is for the latter.
Why would someone else use my criteria? They should use their own criteria? I certainly am not going to use your "it's niche so it can't be useful" criteria as it's important to my usage.
It’s so sad. Circa 2003 OS X wasn’t just good it was amazing. Nearly Movie OS quality. Every release the quality goes down. Every migration to SwiftUI more and more AppKit standard feature get lost.
Sucked compared to what? My OS X life began shortly before Panther, and coming from a Linux laptop everything was better. Compared to Windows XP, everything in Panther was better. Panther on a 1GHz TiBook was amazing compared to anything else at the time.
Books can go on it too. No matter the free storage space on my iPad, it relentlessly nerfs stuff to iCloud rendering its utility on long aeroplane journeys completely worthless.
Their software is better than most (if not all) of closed-source universe. That's true, but the problem is, they were better in the past.
I'm using both Linux and macOS close to 20 years (Linux is even more than 20, IIRC), and macOS (aka Mac OS) used to be snappier, more stable, more uniform and had incredibly low number of papercuts around the UI. Now it has some nasty thorns here and there, while Linux is improving steadily and not regressing much as macOS.
Apple needs to overhaul their software stack. They can use a lot of sanding and polishing to bring the shine back. They need another "Snow Leopard" release, as many people say.
On the other hand, even with all these bells and whistles, they can't even get close to the composability of Linux systems. Doing so will also damage their bottom line, so they won't, and that's OK.
When Apple released its BSD-based OS X at the turn of the century, I was at Rice learning on Solaris machines, and also started dual booting Linux on my personal desktop at the time. My first few years in the working world were spent on Dells running Windows, so by the time I bought my first laptop in 2006, I was excited to spend my dollars on an unusual-looking white Macbook specifically because it had a *nix shell and the developer experience was vastly better to me than any machine I used at my day jobs. I still prefer working on Macs because ever since, they have just worked and Windows has gotten progressively worse (I know, because I have helped my parents with their Surface laptop). Unfortunately, Mac OS X has been less robust in the last several years, and I'd love to see them turn this around, both for the developer experience and for regular consumers. I still like using Photos, but I don't use their cloud for those, and I've been amazed over the years just how uninformative the Photos app on Mac can be when it flakes out and I have to try a rain dance just to get it to sync with my iPhone. That's pretty abysmal for a company that used to just work, but I believe it comes from the top. Steve Jobs used to enforce quality, and I want to see that again!
Similar experience here, started with the same G4 ("white") iBook. That was an amazing machine. Under the hood it was hard to distinguish many differences with Linux/BSD of the time. The UI on top (OSX Tiger) was peerless -- I recall being very excited for the introduction of Spotlight. I'd say the decline came around 2012-2013 or so. Hardware was still great, but they were no longer updating the GNU stuff and anti-features like SIP made it harder and harder to run the applications I want (gdb for example). I gave up not long after they introduced the touchbar
These days I'm happier (or at least content) without a Mac. My FW13+Linux setup may not be as nice as the latest macbook, but it does exactly what I want and if it doesn't, I have options.
Apple's current software is such a joke I almost regret ever having invested in the Mac ecosystem. I still run Mojave for its 32-bit app support for (apple's own) apps that have no contemporary equal.
Apple weathered the passing of Steve surprisingly well, however the cracks still show. Apple's very best is exclusively reserved for those products/devices/software with Jobs' fingerprints on them.
I still run an original iPhone SE as well. The entire tech sphere has gone in such a poor direction, I've increasingly divested myself from tech. If it no longer works with my system, I simply stop using it. It's a happy ("insecure") place.
> I'd say the decline came around 2012-2013 or so.
I think it started slightly earlier: 10.7 Lion in 2011 introduced the new full-screen mode that was completely broken on multi-monitor setups, as though Apple entirely failed to test on or even anticipate what was at most a moderately "power user" hardware configuration. They've introduced lots of useless features over the years (eg. Game Center), but that full-screen mode was the first time I recall OS X having such an in-your-face usability regression that was so obvious and avoidable.
10.7 also dropped Front Row, which was a disappointment to me, but is at least understandable in the context of Apple TV existing as a separate product they wanted to steer users toward. Losing Rosetta in 10.7 was also somewhat justifiable, and didn't hurt me much since my first Mac was an Intel machine and I didn't have much of a library of PPC-only applications.
I'm a Linux guy who doesn't really like Macs but has intermittently been required to use them. On the whole I have a grudging respect for Apple (their hardware is peerless), but seeing one screen turn to "brushed steel" when the app on the other was put into full screen mode kind of blew my mind because "UI is worse than Windows" was not, at the time, a failure mode I believed the company was capable of.
The problem is, in the age of the Internet, old operating systems decay. Even MacOS 10.13 is effectively unusable as a primary workstation, NOT because Apple has abandoned it, but because Firefox, Chrome and Homebrew have abandoned it. Yes there are alternatives, but my point stands.
SIP is anti-feature for a certain class of users, but the right tradeoff for most consumers. At least you can disable it. And even as a developer I leave it enabled.
It's really easy to fail to see this in the heat of things.
macOS has a feature where it puts an orange dot on the top right corner of your screen whenever your microphone is recording. That orange dot is normally part of the menu bar, and completely unobtrusive, but will still show up on top of full-screen windows (e.g. it'll show up on top of games if you're on Discord talking to friends), which is distracting as hell.
As horrendously annoying that little dot is, what's the alternative? Either you have an uncircumventable marker saying you're being recorded, or you don't. Any way to turn that thing off that doesn't involve disabling SIP would be trivial to exploit by anybody who managed to plant malicious recording software in the first place.
More annoying is when you use something like SoundSource (a paid app which adds per-app volume control and input/output redirection to macOS... a feature that by all rights should be built in in any reasonable OS) you get a permanent purple dot indicating a third party tool is intercepting audio.
Again, I get it, but as a power user this kind of stuff is just infuriating.
It's also annoying that macOS doesn't already have at least basic per-app volume mixing.
So much pain in macOS is in areas like this, trying to hack basic features back into the anemic OS.
Apple's "OS" updates typically focus on end-user applications that I don't use and never intend to. Meanwhile the core of the OS, and even the desktop environment, feels stagnant compared to many Linux distros.
Actually, the date was 29 June 2007. This is when GPLv3 was released and Apple could no long continue using the fruits of open source labor without giving anything back. That's when MacOS X's UNIX underlying began to ossify. Sure Apple kept backporting important security things, but it froze in time all of the GNU utilities that made UNIX on MacOS X good.
I’m honestly unconvinced that the “or later” clause of the GPLv2 license is legally valid. Can anyone think of any example where contract terms get to be reinvented by a self-interested third party whenever they choose?
IIRC, the FSF generally insists on getting assigned the copyrights on all GNU software, so the FSF can re-license any new version of their software under any license they choose to, which is currently GPLv3.
Users/vendors can still choose GPLv2 for the older versions of GNU software, which I think is what Apple does for the few remaining GNU software they ship.
The whole experience you're having with the rain dance is because the cloud does just work. It's a vanishing a tiny percentage of people that don't use it.
I hear ya. I'm not in the target market. Surprising, I know, considering how many SaaS platforms I've launched which maintain photos and videos in the cloud!
Many other iPhone/Macbook users have been shocked I don't turn on Messages on my Mac due to a bad experience with sync in the first year that was possible, and I had a similar bad experience with photos in iCloud early on. Maybe the sync is fast now, but my usage would put my in a higher iCloud tier than I'd like, and I still feel more at ease juggling many Photos libraries on external hard drives. I avoid Google Photos like the plague, and even though I trust Apple more (for now), I'd still rather not entrust to them my family's personal photos and videos.
As someone who has had the pain, if you're open to some prodding - one of your external hard drives might be broken right now. Don't risk it. Just pay a few bucks a month to avoid missing your memories. :) I don't think they've ever had a data loss.
It doesn't even have to be Apple. There's Backblaze and Arq and Tarsnap, amongst others. Encrypt the hell out of it and make sure there's a globally redundant copy of your files. If a thief or fire/tornado/earthquake/tsunami takes out your physical drives, where are you?
Always good advice! I did start backing up at a location other than my home many years ago, but it’s not in a cloud. The one time I tried Backblaze I wasn’t impressed but I recognize there are other good alternatives and certainly agree with your strong convictions!
> Maybe the sync is fast now, but my usage would put my in a higher iCloud tier than I'd like
You can use Messages on the Mac without storing messages in iCloud. iPhone, iPad and Mac can all send and receive the same account’s messages, effectively staying in sync without actually syncing them to iCloud’s servers.
The thing where Linux (and Android, and Windows at least circa 2023) blows Apple out of the water is in UI latency. The built-in animations on Apple's software are sometimes hundreds of times slower than on their competitors, in ways which can't be accounted for.
Improving interface response times is the single best thing Apple can do to improve their UX. I don't need an interface which throbs, wiggles, jiggles, shines, and refracts, I need an interface that's snappy and fast.
As far as I know, MacOS is the _only_ desktop OS with this problem. The only way to fix this problem on MacOS is to do everything inside a virtual machine running anything but MacOS.
> The built-in animations on Apple's software are sometimes hundreds of times slower than on their competitors, in ways which can't be accounted for.
You can turn down the animation times for most of this with "defaults write" commands. Set them to 0 or as small as you want. Here's a good list to get started:
As others have noted, the "Reduce Motion" doesn't fix anything (neither does Reduce Transparency).
These terminal commands don't fix the problem- there are still lengthy animations, e.g. when swapping desktops or opening folders. These are tasks I sometimes do multiple times per second on Linux.
Hilariously, this is what the Gnome 2 people would have called an "Unbreak Me" option, something they tried culturally to eliminate more than a decade and a half ago. With... not total success, I guess, but the resulting environment tends to have a very high level of "work and not suck by default" quality -- something that steadily evolving commercial software tends to struggle with maintaining.
> Enable the “Reduce motion” setting in System Settings.
> This is always the default answer to this question online, and I’m sick of it! It doesn’t even solve the problem, but rather replaces it with an equally useless fade-in animation.
You're missing the point here. The "old" Apple would never have tolerated a janky feature that inverts responsibility onto the user and behaves poorly out-of-the-box. Back then it was either lightning fast, jank-free, and intuitive -- or else it doesn't ship.
But this eroded over time. Nowadays both Mac and iOS are bloated pieces of crap that reek of design by committee. A lot of people blame Alan Dye (and they are probably right to do so) but there are other factors too. With Steve and Jony gone, they need someone who cares to step in and assert control once more
> Back then it was either lightning fast, jank-free, and intuitive -- or else it doesn't ship.
That's kinda rose tinted history. System 7 (1990s Mac OS) for example crashed and locked up a whole lot, in my experience. The UI was fantastic and had great consistency, and the developer docs were of a quality that would blow minds today. But the software was not as solid as all that.
Windows was the same or maybe worse at the time. BSOD was common and a nightly reboot was a good idea until NT/Win2000. Solaris and BSD would have months of uptime on similar hardware, so it was a software problem. PC OSes were just not there yet. Windows 2000, OSX, and Linux gradually fixed that.
That's all basic uptime. The UI design drift of MacOS is another story.
I have an ‘old’ model (iPhone 14 pro max) and text frequently misses characters due to the lag/input delay. It’s most pronounced when using safari for some reason.
In any case, it’s odd that hardware is multiples better yet it doesn’t always nail something as basic as typing
In my experience, iOS only misses keys during the time the keyboard is loading (which can be over a second- crazy!)
But I often have input lags where I will press several keys, and then a period of time (which can be multiple seconds) will pass before my taps are registered.
The 14 Pro Max launched less than four years ago, and should not be slower than an Android which launched a decade prior.
I think a big part of this in recent years is SwiftUI just not being fully-cooked and Apple trying to shove it into a bunch of areas without enough attention to performance. Not sure how it is on iOS, but for example, the Settings app feels chuuuunky if you navigate through the panes with up and down arrow keys. I wasn't able to make a selectable list view that worked consistently and didn't feel like a regression compared to an equivalent AppKit view
> I think a big part of this in recent years is SwiftUI just not being fully-cooked and Apple trying to shove it into a bunch of areas without enough attention to performance.
FWIW, SwiftUI got a huge performance boost for iOS/macOS 26+, and Instruments 26 has been nice for finding performance bottlenecks. You may find the SwiftUI performance auditor in a free/FOSS project of mine (https://charleswiltgen.github.io/Axiom/commands/ui-design/au...) helpful as well.
Why it took 4 years to get to near-UIKit levels of performance I couldnt say, but I've had a great experience working with it on an app that's 97% SwiftUI.
Hmm, I guess I couldn't have known about that since I don't have iOS and haven't upgraded to macOS 26 yet, but performance auditing did seem a bit opaque last I tried.
Any specific improvements you've seen on the mac side?
It's odd to see this comment, since I've always had the opposite experience (at least when comparing Windows and MacOS -- I haven't used desktop linux much in the past 20 years). On MacOS, when I click something, something happens, or at the very least starts to happen (and I get some visual indication). While in Windows I often click on something and get no indication that something happened or started happening, so I click again, and then suddenly perform the action twice. This most often happens when opening programs, but it happens in other places too sometimes.
I’ve found Mac OS to be snappier than any of the dozen or so Linux DEs I’ve tried. I use Fedora with XFCE and it’s ok in responsiveness, I’ve got PopOS on another machine. It’s good. But I’ve got MacOS on my other two machines and they just feel so much snappier. And the Macs are 6-7 years old. The other machines are newer (2/3yo).
In any case have you tested on the same machine for the most apt comparison? Agr may not be the best predictor of performance when io and memory may be more productive of snappiness than the latest CPU.
Input devices and monitors can make a difference as well.
For Windows, my last experience on a personal install was Windows 10 and that was yeeeaaars ago, so... Grain of salt :)
It's not the default, but IIRC Windows could be configured to have zero animations, and I found it to be quite responsive as such.
I'm not talking about the speed of opening programs, but more of the speed of every-second interactions: Unfolding a folder (or other interactions within a program with keyboard or mouse), alt-tabbing across windows, moving between desktops, etc. At least on Windows, I saw far fewer IO-blocking animations than I have on MacOS.
You're right about the "something starts to happen": Apple hides delays behind sigmoidal animations throughout much of their OS. For those who aren't aware of the trick, the delay between the start of the animation and the tail where it starts appears to just be an animation that started on the interaction.
Package management, too. I recently got a MacBook for work, but it’s sitting on my desk and I’m continuing to use my Lenovo. Managing software updates is much better on Linux. As is managing windows (via Niri in my case). macOS really feels like a downgrade.
I don’t disagree, I just moved back to Linux from macOS myself (Tahoe was the last drop for me).
But did you try Homebrew and its extensions? It works pretty well for managing both terminal and GUI apps, and has some useful extensions like Brewfile, MAS, etc. Its not perfect, but for single-user Macs with an up-to-date OS version, it works quite well.
For managing windows I agree Mac OS sucks. But the third party window managers I use for MacOS are better than any other first or third party window managers I’ve ever used. Windows has far better window management than any Linux distro’s default WM. (But it’s terrible in every other way)
Nix is not the same as nixos, and in this case the distinction matters. It has to step carefully around Apple's updates. This further highlights the fact Apple lacks the same quality package management as some linux distros. Nixpkgs (on macos), Ports, and Homebrew packages are toys compared to the EFFORT that goes into maintaining Debian and Redhat packages.
In terms of package management SOFTWARE, however, nix (and guix, lix, etc.) are state of the art and work fairly similar in both linux and macos. A deeper integration with the OS would have been nice.
Package managers are wonderful until you step near our outside of the packaged software - then you better hope you're on a big distro otherwise you may be in uncharted territory.
Except on Linux you have to remember which of the several different package managers each specific system uses. Do I use apt, apt-get, pacman, yum, dnf, flatpacks, build from source?
Homebrew on MacOS is miles ahead in terms of DE in my experience. But yeah I guess by default the “App Store” is meh.
There is no such thing as DX with any digital tool. Its just pain and suffering all the way down. Sooner you realize it and make peace with it the better.
> Except on Linux you have to remember which of the several different package managers each specific system uses. Do I use apt, apt-get, pacman, yum, dnf, flatpacks, build from source?
How often are you switching systems that you can't remember the package manager?
You could just alias your package manager to something more memorable if it's really a problem, but I feel like this argument only really applies to servers where you may be logging into a variety of different distributions every day.
This is the biggest thing that irks me after coming from windows. Everything feels so sluggish. I wonder why the internet ist full of people complaining about that. I guess they just dont work fast enough to be bothered by that?
Why would you use that feature? MacOS doesn't REALLY have multiple desktops (Spaces). That is merely a pre-release feature (for 10 years or so, I think). As evidenced by the many critical user journey bugs it has that don't get addressed.
I use both linux (with a decent tiling window manager; the tiling management being the least important part of it) and macos. And certain things are just not possible to do with macos. On linux I can have 300+ open terminal windows AND CAN find the one I need when I need to. On macos 20 (counting in Termianl tabs, which are implemented as windows, underneath) is about the high mark that it gets annoying to work on. On macos, you can't effectively work on multiple projects that use the same software (editor + terminal, for example). You can work with different Applications, though, and that is managed pretty well (better than most linux window managers that I have seen).
Every year or so I try adding a couple of Spaces, and always regret it a couple of hours later, switching back to a single Space (+ a few fullscreen apps).
I've used spaces since 2013, they work well enough. The animation bug is annoying though. On displays higher than 60Hz, the animation is slower because they made it frame-based instead of time-based, or something silly like that.
I love the three finger gesture to move between them though, it's like moving pieces of paper around. You can also work around the bug I mentioned by swiping faster, but yeah I wish they'd just fix it so we can move on.
Of course it can be used. But it is very buggy (as in missing or not well-though-out behaviors), which is unlike the typical polish Apple human interaction folks deliver. For example switching between Spaces and then between apps and windows and creating a new app window don't work as expected in some combination of steps and for some apps. There are several other "corner" cases that show the features were not laid out in a full design to exhaustively decide the desired behavior in each case. Which is very much like when someone bolts on a feature to a system without fully nail down its interaction with all other adjacent and relevant features.
I'm just responding to your "Why would you use that feature?" question. I use it because I like it, and it works well for me. I'm not disagreeing that they have some bugs and design issues to work out. It seems pretty obvious MacOS doesn't get as much attention as iOS when it comes to these things.
Spaces help me visually organize related apps. I have all my chat apps in one, all my dev stuff in another.
I used to run Linux with i3 tiling window manager, but switched to Mac because the battery is so much better. Although the new Framework laptop looks like it has pretty great battery life.
Linux benefits long term from the fragmentation that hurts it in the short-term. Competing projects means it is harder for software to go too far down the wrong road. Go to far and somebody emerges to replace you. And popular ideas emerge that others can copy from.
With macOS, you really have no choice to use what Apple offers. You can hope they listen to dissent but they may not depending on priorities. And things have to be bad enough to jump platforms before real dissent registers. And things have to get pretty bad for that.
Same issue with Windows of course.
With GNOME, KDE, COSMIC, and the Linux rat pack, it is easy to switch experiences without ditching Linux entirely. And somebody has probably even patched your DE of choice to address the papercuts you do not like.
I've been using Apple since IIe in the 80s and all of the UI iterations. People make iOSification comments about macOS, and there have definitely been annoyances as they are seemingly trying to unify the UX. Maybe it'll make sense when they have touch controllable macOS systems, but making things that work well for fingertips and assuming they will work equally as well operating by a mouse is just bad.
As for Linux, I don't think I've ever used a system with UI for any serious amount of time. >99.999% of my usage is on headless systems through a terminal. As god intended.
A major reason Snow Leopard was well received was because of how performant it felt along with the bug fixes. What isn't mentioned anywhere near as much is that it dropped a lot of hardware (PPC). The last G4 Powerbook got about 1.5y of OS support before it was dropped.
iOS 26 is slated to drop a bunch of iPhone models. macOS is dropping all all macs with Intel CPUs.
A Snow Leopard release isn't great news for a lot of people.
Aren't they? The last Intel macs were being sold less than 3y ago, and by the time macOS 27 releases they'll be less than 3.5y old.
The broader point is that a "Snow Leopard" release has historically resulted in a lot of hardware being left behind, and many of the devices that could have benefited the most from optimizations were cut off.
Everything (or 90%) on the iphone was taken from the mac and put into the iPhone. The software dvelopment for the PC environment, then stripped down and streamlined for the phone is why the iPhone was the revolution that it was.
Apple, like you, can only think in terms of revenue and profit generated. "iPhone makes this much profit = iphone gets this much development".
That thinking has led us into this stagnated crap, because it's a terrible way to do software. Worse, what's happening now is apple is taking its iThing software and trying to migrate it to the mac. The Mac is now getting destroyed by the iPhone development.
The smart move is further development of the Mac to explore ways to bring new features to the iPhone or future apple devices. To simply go "this = profit = all development goes there" personifies a lack of wisdom.
True, it's better than most for sure and I agree it used to be better.
Though a lot of other software for windows and linux are really not that great so the bar is probably on the lower end.
What metrics or experiences lead you to that conclusion?
I've used basically all of the major operating systems for 30+ years and I cannot stand macOS. I use a Mac as one of my work devices, and off the top of my head:
* Basic things such as window management require third party tools to get things that are table stakes everywhere else. Even with third party tools doing anything with a "full screen" mode is not going to work the way you expect.
* You can't have separate scroll directions for your trackpad and your external mouse.
* External peripherals in general are a disaster. Every time I connect or disconnect from a docking station my windows are left in awkward positions sized larger than my screen and I need to drag them around
* macOS seems to store a different set of monitor orientations based on what USB port I connect my dock to - same dock, same monitors, 2 different layouts I had to configure independently. I don't even know how you could accomplish that if you wanted it - and absolutely no one wants that.
* Multiple monitors is constantly an afterthought, whether it's menus, the dock, layouts, what have you
* The Settings app is impossible to find anything in. You have to search, and that works OK sometimes, but the layout has no rhyme, reason, or comprehensible order
* Safari. Enough said.
I could keep going, but I absolutely do not associate Apple with quality software.
not the op but for me safari has been deteriorating for years:
1. ios performance in scrolling and loading (especially on my ipad pro m2) is unbearably slow, just stutters everywhere when loading a page in the background
2. tap-and-hold to open a link menu is so strange; sometimes it highlights text instead of showing the menu, sometimes it works ok, there is some kind of strange ui timing issue at work
3. on ipad and ios the tab overview display scrolling is absolutely appalling like 4fps level slow... completely unbearable to scroll through tab previews
4. developer tools are abysmal compared to chrome
5. on desktop performance is also extremely slow compared to chrome, its night and day
6. battery usage is so bad on ipad, just leaving some tabs open they run down the battery and chug memory (i know this is more a web thing, but they should at least freeze tabs in the background or make it an option)
7. just strange bugs on ipad, when tapping a text field the keyboard pops up, then suddenly disappears and the pops up again... just a terrible app
etc etc lots of paper cuts, but the performance issues are the biggest for me... i like the tab groups + auto save and icloud sync and built-in spellcheck, but its getting harder and harder to resist the alternatives
The Tab Overview is due to some background tab reload.
I could basically sums up your experience as Safari is appalling at multi tab resource management. And it has been the case for 14+ years and counting.
It wasn't until Safari 18 before I have most of the rendering issues gone on sites I visit. Safari 26 is completely gone. I haven't encountered one since Safari 26.1.
With a lot of features done, I just hope Safari turn its attention to performance and snappiness of the browser. Multi Tabs doesn't work. For people who uses more than 30+ Tabs is when it start getting slow. Safari used to have an option to unload background tab and that usually fix 80% of the problem but it was taken out some years ago.
If you tap into the address bar, start typing your search, type enough for it to be specific enough that autosuggest crap
clears, and “On this page” appears. Wildly undiscoverable in practice.
3. Grievance 1 and 2 compound together. Whenever Safari (or a Safari update) breaks a feature, you cannot inform a user that they can use another browser as a work around (because all browser engines are forced to use Webkit on iOS/iPadOS)
4. Bad dev tools. This has been seeing much needed improvements (e.g. being able to type an entire word in the css pane instead of a new character on each line), but it still feels 7 years behind.
5. No way to report bugs. There is a "bug reporter" at bugs.webkit.org, however each bug is auto-tagged with a link to an internal bug tracker within Apple. This means that those who are trying to fix bugs and those are trying to report bugs have a wall between them. There is no way to have a discussion to try to narrow down what the bug is, why the bug happens in one case but not another, what's really the cause of the issue, or why the bug matters more than whoever is assigned it might realise. When reporting a bug to Apple, it's more useful to talk to an actual wall because it might fall on you giving you an actual response.
6. Performing incorrectly is more important than getting the performing correctly. This one takes some explanation, but it's a little tricky. I'll give three examples then show how they're all the same issue:
Example 1: The cool homepage.
I was working on a website. Two months before launch I decided to spend a month of time juicing up the homepage, then one more month on polish.
On the homepage I decided to use the brand's pre-existing graphics and turning them into a parallax animation (inspired by: https://www.firewatchgame.com/)
It had:
- Regular content on the page
- Parallax layers with simple vector graphics inside them so that when the user scrolled down the page, the user saw a parallax animation of the landscape changing. (e.g. far clouds, far mountains, close clouds, close mountains, hill, foreground, simple bubble particles closer than the regular content on the sides to strengthen the depth of field illusion, etc...)
- Other vector graphics following a motion path animation
- This was done in 2017, so before CSS got scroll driven animation support, or motion-path support. It was also done without JS.
- Everything worked brilliantly, until we discovered that one particular iPhone model rendered an empty blank white page.
- I lost the last month trying pulling the effect apart trying to diagnose the bug (and with Safari's buggy dev tools being no help I had to do it in the dark). I was able to determine when the bug would trigger, and had to tear down my whole homepage and rebuild it with 2 fewer parallax layers before launch and 3 days of polish for the rest of the website before launch.
(you can see the final result at https://myobrace.com, but I really would have liked the extra time for polish, if you're wondering how I achieved the effects without JS and/or scroll-driven animations, I used css's perspective and transform rules to position the elements back in the z-axis then scaled them up so they appeared the correct size with the regular page content so as the page scrolled, the elements further back appeared to scroll at a different speed. I then used SMIL for the motion paths in the SVG elements).
Example 2. The texture
I wanted to add a repeating texture to buttons so they didn't feel so flat without needing a separate network request to download an image.
I tried generating one with SVG but the SVG 1.1 filter effects implementations aren't all hardware accelerated.
I tried generating one with CSS which worked everywhere but Safari.
You can see a texture here where the texture is generated entirely within CSS, and it doesn't work in Safari (but I didn't hide the seams because the result looks like a cool mosaic and I wanted to share the technique): https://codepen.io/spartanatreyu/pen/Yzbmvbr
(if you're curious about the actual texture I used, I hand drew a minimal noise texture in photoshop that could be repeated without showing seams, then base64 encoded it and inlined it within the CSS file so it could be loaded without needing an extra network request. You can see my development version here: https://codepen.io/spartanatreyu/pen/YzoexGg?editors=1100 (the final version is locked behind a login wall in a child-friendly education webapp))
Example 3. Asset downloading
I made a webapp for kiosk machines that downloads 100mb+ of video assets when logging in for the first time. iPads have a kiosk mode so I supported iPadOS' Safari mode so that the iPads could be used in commercial settings as kiosk machines.
When the final assets were added, the iPad machines would randomly crash during the asset downloading process.
With Safari's completely broken debugging experience, I eventually learned that as Safari downloads a video, as soon as it tries to put that downloaded data somewhere, it has to copy it across to the new place it's being stored, and if you're copying more than 3mb, it crashes the browser.
The fix was to download and store each video in 1mb chunks. This slowed down the installation speed by a bit over 300%, but at least Safari didn't crash any more.
---
Now back to: "Performing incorrectly is more important than getting the performing correctly."
It turns out Safari on iOS/iPadOS has an invisible time/performance budget. Anytime Safari hits that budget, the browser stops what its doing.
- Drawing texture to screen? How about we stop drawing all textures to the screen, including text. Websites don't need to draw any text right?
- Rendering a texture in CSS? How about you have the color white covering everything else instead.
- Downloading a video that's more than 3mb? How about I crash the browser when the download completes.
Compare this to Firefox and Chrome, as they run out of their budget, they stop starting new work so they old work can finish before starting their next task. The page may take a few milliseconds longer to get to the correct result on slower devices, but the result IS correct.
Even worse:
- Safari has no way of informing the code how close it is to the budget.
- The budget can only be found by trial and error.
- If the iOS/iPadOS device has other apps in the background, the budget is smaller.
- Each device has a different budget, so you have to penalize all Safari devices to the smallest supported budget of the oldest supported device.
- If you hit the budget on the most basic functionality (e.g. a homepage, a button, downloading required assets), then your website / webapp may as well not exist to those Apple users.
To be fair, Safari 18 ( finally ) improved a lot on what what reported in both State of CSS and JS. With 26 even better, it is gotten to the point where I believe hopefully 27 it will be a non-issue most of the time. As long as they continue to grind through everything for the next few years and not stop / pulling out resource on Safari Team.
Agree on the time/performance budget. It is pain stupid. As has been the case for so many years. And yet nothing has been done about it.
Since Catalina (maybe since Yosemite), apple has gone down the path of iOSification of its destkop operating system; dumbing it down and trying to own all use cases. Any professional desktop users have long since been chased away, and whatever professionals apple cannot shake: video and music production, have been so shoehorned in to a stupid naïve vision of what their work should look like, it borders on a joke.
No serious computer user can use a Mac anymore, and this is an unfortunate departure from Steve Jobs' Mac where he expended great effort to ensure the Mac remained a serious desktop OS.
The most egregious example of this stupidity is the dumbing down of the Disk Utility app - an app rarely if ever used by normies, and so dumbed down the pros don't want to use it either. Really leaves you scratching your head what the decisionmaking process there was.
Where Steve Jobs' would draw lines in the sand and ask developers and users not to cross it, chairman cook put NATO wire and basically forced users to do as told (safari extensions got nuked, app store apps don't load older versions of software and there's some weird exclusivity agreement, HFS+ support got dropped and apple refused updates to machines that didn't follow, etc. etc. etc. etc.)
The settings app being hot garbage is apple trying to unify their toy phone OS with the desktop OS.
Safari nuked 3rd party extensions so everything has to go through apple's extensions "store".
Apple treated its core base, the ones who saved Apple from collapse in the 90s, like expendable slave. Worse actually; apple actively chased them away like lepers.
This has led to a systemic core rot in apple's software and ecosystem, one that will take years to rectify.... if apple even chooses to do so.
> * You can't have separate scroll directions for your trackpad and your external mouse.
My latest Mac OSX wtf was sometimes the terminal window shrinks by 1 or 2 columns every time I wake the computer up from sleep, but only when connected via thunderbolt USB C hub to external monitor. Terrifying to imagine how that must be. By contrast, Linux/BSD desktops don't generally seem to pull this kind of weird mindfuck horror movie shit? Like it either works or it's completely, obviously, totally broken. Not some weird subtle in-between thing.
- Let’s hope they don’t change the way macOS manage windows. All the additions they made to accommodate Windows users are useless.
- I don’t have any issue on searching macos settings. Could you provide an example?
- safari is a great browser, i use it as main browser since years and i’d never go back
I think you could keep going saying things that are not true.
> You can't have separate scroll directions for your trackpad and your external mouse.
The worst. There are even separate toggles in Settings for mouse and trackpad scrolling direction, but changing one changes the other. It is truly amazing that this has persisted for 15 years.
Opinions vary, but I've never found Apple software to be particularly good. Their hardware is almost always exceptional.
I'd go further and say I am constantly frustrated by how difficult their software can make basic tasks. I often find many of their UX patterns unintuitive, or even feel user hostile at times. Small example, I really want to view passwords as I type them in. I constantly miss type passwords on touch screens. User error maybe, but frustrating experience.
XCode is my least favourite IDE that I use regularily.
100% agree. As someone who used both Mac and PC for 30+ years, and still use both, Mac OS (and iOS) aren't very intuitive. Lots of hidden functions. The way they organize settings is tough to find. It's always a struggle.
My experience is similar. Great hardware. Software is good until there is something I want to do that isn't very obvious, then it's either a hassle or not possible.
My favourite example being looking for the volume mixer, and after looking online the top advice seemed to be to pay for a 3rd party application for that... Wtf?
There are so many basic gaps in functionality and so many underbaked & poorly designed Mac OS features that I end up papering over with paid 3rd party applications.
In order for that to actually be a money-making strategy for Apple, those third-party apps that address weaknesses in the OS would have to be sold through the Mac App Store so that Apple gets a cut. I've been a Mac user since before there was a Mac App Store, and I've never bought such a utility through the App Store. I have paid for several such apps over the years in ways that did not generate any direct revenue for Apple, and most of those apps likely could not be distributed through the App Store because of how they muck around with private APIs and other OS internals.
Those third-party apps do increase the overall appeal of Apple's platform, but suggesting that Apple might want to encourage that situation rather than improve their OS themselves sounds like a broken windows fallacy.
XCode is one of the worst pieces of software in history. Imagine writing a code editor that couldn’t keep its syntax highlighting from crashing for multiple years.
You must be a fetus. Apple was leagues ahead of everyone else with the inception of the Mac all the way through Windows 7...
Microsoft finally caught up around that time, but has since added a whole new dimension of enshittification that the only conclusion that can be reached about tech as a whole is that it all sucks and will always suck.
> Apple’s software is the best in the non-free software world compared to Google's or Microsoft's, IMO. But that doesn't mean it can't be better.
20+ years ago, software was so horrible that we were just tolerating it, and every new OS release was a big deal because there was hope things would get better! Today an OS release comes out and I have to be bothered by automatic "you must upgrade messages" to even care.
People forget how horrible it used to be, and if you still use windows, how much worse it could be when vs. Apple (and let's not get started on Linux).
I was using (and writing) software as long as 35+ years ago and I disagree with your assessment that we were “just tolerating it” 20 years ago. 20 years ago, I was using Mac OS X Tiger on a new Intel-based MacBook Pro and it ran like a dream, and had software which mostly followed Apple’s human interface guidelines. Now I run macOS Tahoe and curse under my breath at the lack of design consistency and the iPad-ification of the interface. I’m also shown ads, and in some cases ads that can’t be dismissed or disabled, for things like iCloud and Apple Music.
When it comes to the software, I’d take the Tiger experience over the Tahoe one hands-down.
I used 20+ years ago as a guideline, not an absolute. Of course the intel MBP came out in 2006 (or 2007?) and was an absolute dream setup where hardware caught up with Windows while the software was pretty good as well (I was using a Mac since 2004 or so).
I don't think software is improving today, which is why I have to be nagged to upgrade. I don't think it worse, but my computer usage probably varies greatly from yours.
Maybe. I personally couldn’t afford to switch until 2004. And I grew up with PCs (well my first computer was an Osborne). Even then, it felt expensive and slow until the Intel switch.
Same here. Two decades ago, I was excited to install updates to commercial software I used because they fixed bugs and brought useful new features. These days I fear updates because they introduce new bugs, remove features I care about, and come with new anti-features that I actively do not want.
The macOS Tahoe release is a great example of this. I can't think of a single thing I prefer about it and could easily name ten things I hate about it.
> 20+ years ago, software was so horrible that we were just tolerating it,
Absolutely not, especially not on an Apple thread.
By example, the iPod released in 2001. Anyone who used those early knows the user experience was competitive with the current experience. In 2006, I was using the version of iTunes then which was probably objectively the best desktop music app ever created. There are features then that were just there, that were pioneered, or now absent, like an automatically sorted "least listened to" playlist that are now nearly impossible to find. Sync alone is still an headache the OS community just does on the side, and no one is even bothering to compete on it anymore.
Amarok was way better than iTunes in that era. Massively better UI, separation of playback queue from collection browsing, plugin ecosystem, better metadata fetching including lyrics support... And its dynamic playlists were way more capable too.
I had an iPod in those days and Apple's firmware updates that periodically broke third-party sync (while bringing no improvements) is the reason that to this day I've never bought Apple hardware for myself from Apple since that time. Used hardware only.
Every time I had to use iTunes was regrettable. The app was an insanely massive download for the time. It tried to install fucking Safari on Windows for no reason. The UI was somehow simultaneously a sprawling mess and feature-deprived.
Maybe there was a brief period where iTunes was genuinely an interesting app, but even by the mid-aughts, it had been totally surpassed by a number of open-source music players.
But Amarok at that time was only available on Linux. I assume most iTunes fans of the time never got to try it.
It's worst in case of freedom, which is the most important aspect for me. Every release they are slowly turning in the screws and make it harder and harder to install apps from developers who haven't jumped through all the hoops that Apple forces them to. I hope this change in leadership will change this strategy.
Google is worse. Most of their apps are cloud only with no E2EE. Also, they are much more user hostile when deciding what goes in the store (they make money off spying, but apple makes money off hw, so this makes sense).
Both those ecosystems are rapidly enshittifying (apple cannot even reliably process keystrokes with subsecond latency, and google is banning sideloading).
We need a third, actually user-serving and open alternative. Maybe the new CEO will slow or reverse the bleeding on the iOS / MacOS side.
Google has so far allowed installing apps without their explicit permission. So it's much higher on freedom index, imo. And there's no obligation to use Google cloud apps. There's alternative for every Google cloud app.
That’s good to know. Is there a list? Maybe a vocal community of computer literate people with money could loudly move to banks that do work (regardless of which phone they have).
That's like saying there's no freedom in USA because I didn't get a visa to visit. We are talking about the freedom of Google devices. And you are talking about banks not letting you install their apps on a non Google OS. Totally different things.
P.S. even if it is buggier than Windows, MacOS has a lot fewer bugs than our app! We do encounter bugs in Linux, but they are almost invariably fixed in up to date distros. Unfortunately we are forced to support old enterprise Linux distros.
not only Safari, several other apps such as Music (which also has several annoying quirks)
never understood why they did not get their own lifecycle if they have dedicated teams for each of those apps
If you're interested, it's to reduce cost. It's incredibly expensive to build something like Music or Maps. If each version is tied to an OS version, it keeps you from having to explode your testing and fixing cycle over time.
This is especially notably when you want to support all the latest OS features.
My company keeps the testing cycle smaller by only adding new OS-dependent features to its mobile app when the minimum supported OS version gets incremented and a feature is supported in every supported OS version. That means that the iOS app is only now getting features that were added in iOS 15 in 2021.
It's a deal when they stop updating. It is true they provide OS updates for longer than most, but many people use devices, especially ipads for way longer than the OS supported period. And those people are stuck on an old unsupported browser without being able to update or install a 3rd party one.
Chrome and Google being bad doesn't make Apple's restrictions good. That said, Android lets you install a 3rd party browser which can choose to keep supporting old devices. iOS locks everything to using the safari engine.
Unlike Android indeed, when you maintain a perfectly working phone that happens (by accident or force of nature) to live longer than the official lifetime some executives in a remote office had decided to grant it, the web browser cannot be updated any more. Just the single most security sensitive piece of software of any computer. Who would have guessed people were going to complain!
And neither does Google. The latest version of Chrome requires the version of Android released in 2019. The latest version of iOS supports my iPad released in 2019.
Their legendary "goto fail" debacle as well as the ease with which ios has repeatedly been jailbroken would disagree. I think geohot once quipped: "My lawyer could write a better malloc."
[1] Actually, the defect was that creating a root account was a unprivileged action, so anybody could create a root account on your machine with a password of their choice. The most obvious presentation is that you could login to root by pressing enter twice with the empty password; the first time creating root with the empty password and the second time logging you in.
I think of it as BSD style, though of course it could be suggested/mandated elsewhere -
[...]Use a space after keywords (if, while, for, return, switch). No braces are used for control statements with zero or only a single statement unless that statement is more than a single line, in which case they are permitted.[0]
As I look, GNU guide is less specific, but examples[1] show the same style.
The good thing is that -Wmisleading-indentation [2] (comes along with -Wall) catches this indentation error.
CryptoKit isn't relevant to `goto fail`, which was the origin of this thread, given CryptoKit merely implements primitives and not TLS.
If you really are doubting what gets used for TLS, open up Console.app, start streaming, run `nscurl https://example.com/` (or load it in Safari, etc.), and you'll see logging like:
Most of the main apps on Apple TV shouldn't require a password anymore; you log in on your phone to authorize. The next Apple TV should simplify this further...
> Apple’s software is the best in the non-free software world compared to Google's or Microsoft's
But it's worst in the Apple software world compared to Apple's. In fairness, Microsoft has also been in steady tragic decline for a while. I don't know about Google.
I haven't really had to work with microsoft software but apple's software quality is abysmal beyond the OS (and even the OS has places that are a joke, like the bluetooth stack).
I'd rather use nano than having to write code on xcode.
Apple’s software has a kind of reliable predictability that many appreciate.
But “best” is far too strong a word.
For starters, most if not all their software can be described as simpler also-rans.
And in line with that approach, for a company that innovates in hardware, it does not apply that effort to software.
With two exceptions in the last two decades. The iPhone and Apple Watch operating systems & interfaces were very creative efforts. Which genuinely matched the hardware innovation.
Vision’s OS, on the hand, basically iOS-ified hardware that deserved to be treated like the first device to be positioned above and beyond the Mac. The natural interface doesn’t fall below the Mac’s, like a touch screen does. It fat exceeds it, given a keyboard-trackpad.
Instead, software wise, we get another media and toy kiosk.
I am stunned that Tim Cook didn’t see the opportunity to leave his mark with a device that took the capability crown further than the Mac, instead of falling for the 3D as cute feature un-vision.
Pro hardware. Toy software.
He has been a great CEO. But if he let Steve and his own legacy down anywhere, that is where.
That, the predictable but mostly stalled vision of software apps. And all the odd software glitches on all their devices that seem to keep cropping up, that suggest poor underlying models to me.
Their underlying systems software are a high point. The hardware integration is stand out.
The huge strike-out they made with the Vision Pro still blows my mind. I'm in the camp of people who would have possibly shifted my entire working setup to that thing if they'd made just a few less dumb choices with it, and it might have been worth it even at the high price. I still occasionally waste my time checking out the latest to see if they've made any headway towards making it useful, because I'm still recovering from the shock that they haven't. The only way I can see the current state making any sense is if they just wanted to squeeze as much field usage data as possible from early adopters of an overpriced prototype, but that seems so far outside of how Apple normally positions its products that it's hard to believe.
> I'm in the camp of people who would have possibly shifted my entire working setup to that thing if they'd made just a few less dumb choices
That describes me too. I even did for a while. But it just made the incomprehensible lack of any software ambition more painful.
The software is the only reason the Vision isn't worth the price. A real Pro OS, paired with an Studio M5-Ultra, or with its own M5-Ultra, would be an amazing work environment.
(The only hardware they would need to upgrade for the latter, i.e. its own Ultra, would be making live-battery swapping convenient. Which they should have already done.)
It's uneven in my experience. OS-wise (Android, ChromeOS), I've had some big and frustrating problems. On the other hand, I really like some of their web apps (Drive, Docs).
For servers, yes, but use Safari for like 5 minutes versus Chrome and it’s clear the reverse is true for desktops, especially if you’re not running with 32+GB of RAM. Google Drive, Photos, etc. are not as good as Chrome.
This is not to say that Apple’s desktop software is great, only that the bar is a lot lower than it had to be when people had to be convinced to buy licenses.
Ah yes, the company that still can't their gesture and backswipe UX functioning properly 7 years after its introduction, and with Apple giving them 2 years to study it beforehand.
A decade to produce a non-functioning gesture bar / system. Such a titan among titans.
I still prefer macOS to desktop Linux or (yikes) Windows, but the margin has gotten smaller over the last several years. Unfortunately, that's less because Linux or Windows have gotten that much better, and more because macOS has stalled (and even gone backwards in some ways).
Maybe 20 years ago, today it's no better than anything else - well designed in some aspects, total trash in others. The stewards of xcode, spotlight and siri (among many other stinkers) are disqualified from the category of "best"
Android and Windows are better than iOS and macOS in many non-trivial ways. They have their own problems too, but as a user of all of them I don't prefer the Apple software. Apple's hardware, on the other hand, is clearly superior.
Android has a far better OTA update system than iOS. The notification system is much better and the default keyboard is better too. It supports multiple user profiles that you can switch between instantly, with their own separate apps and settings and home screens, a long requested feature for iPads that is inexplicably still absent on iOS.
Windows has a better desktop compositor and window manager than macOS. It supports Nvidia GPUs with CUDA. It also has WSL so you can use real package managers instead of homebrew.
"winget configure" is pretty great in Windows - you can store your personal .config file on GitHub and use it whenever you set up a new PC to install everything you want, uninstall all the cruft you don't want, and set all the Windows config you want via registry keys.
and people wonder why they have random regressions in updates. this is it. unit tests and other types of tests are a cornerstone of software stability and does the bulk of the job of preventing regressions
What do you mean? Most if not all Apple's software is not even the best in their own category, let alone "in the non-free software world compared to Google's or Microsoft's". If we look at only these three and leave other competitors, you want to tell us that Safari is better than Chrome (Edge is the same now), Pages is better than Docs and Word, Numbers is better than Sheets and Excel, Keynote is better than Slides (arguably) or PowerPoint, Mail is better than Gmail or Outlook, iCloud better than Google Drive or OneDrive (ok lol), Facetime better than Meet or Teams, Apple Maps better than Google Maps or Bing Maps, Siri better than Google Assistant or Copilot... ?
Outside the two.. Fina Cut better than Premiere Pro or Resolve or Avid, Logic Pro better than Pro Tools or Ableton or many others, Motion better than After Effects, Pixelmator better than anything from Adobe or Affinity..
Come on, my dude. Only thing I haven't mentioned is OS only because that's a religion and I don't fall into MacOS one.
Apple's hardware game is strong. Software isn't, never has been.
> Apple’s software is the best in the non-free software world compared to Google's or Microsoft's, IMO.
Apple does xcode, known for being perpetually broken and an ungodly mess of whatever design it had. Isn't it enough proof to completely reject your claim?
In my opinion Android (especially the Google Pixel flavour) is vastly more intuitive and logical than i(Pad)OS these days. I almost need to consult a manual to change my wallpaper on iOS. Anything to do with file management or notifications is also just plain bad on iOS. The keyboard is bad. Background downloads don't work reliably. If I want to transfer photos from a computer onto an iPhone I need special software and then cannot delete those pictures on the phone itself. I can choose between 3 multitasking paradigms on iPad – terrible!
It has one feature I wish everyone else would copy: Miller columns. But even after NeXT used them 35+ years ago, they have remarkably little penetration into other OSes.
I use Pathfinder on MacOS, and it's generally a lot better than finder, but there are features I wish would carry over from other OSes. Windows file check boxes are incredibly useful
Miller columns is the biggest waste of screen space that's possible in an OS, and MacOS chose it for Finder. And Apple has been dying on that hill for decades. It's one of the main reasons Finder is awful and Apple's design choices are a joke.
If you are reading Hackers News for the most part, you are out of touch with the normal computer users and that was said over and over again with the introduction of the Mac Neo which appears to be a hit among normal everyday computer users who have never heard of Hackers News, a family member recently just bought one of the new Mac M5 PowerBook's and I expected some cry for help setting it up. Guess what there was none.
In the answer to your question, there is nothing better overall across hardware and software top to bottom and that applies to computers, smartphones, tablets, and watches across five ecosystems.
I find it hard to believe this comment isn't sarcastic. Apple's software, atleast in particular macos, is horrendous - to the point I ditched my m2 macbook for a thinkpad because of how bad it was. It's like a toy OS.
Saying Apple Software is 'terrible' is a blatant hyperbole. Has it degraded meaningfully over the last decade in terms of stability? Yes. Has it's capability increased though? Yes. Has it become more secure by design? Yes. Is the UX better than anything else in market? By a country mile.
The UX used to be better by a country mile. The liquid glass update was a genuinely serious regression. Is Windows or Android now better? At least those operating systems don't have constant contrast issues and flickering. At this point they probably have more consistency.
MacOS reliability has slowly gotten worse and worse, but the UX drop with liquid glass was profound.
No, it's objectively bad in terms of usability. There is also the matter of taste, but I'm not even talking about that. I'm talking about UX, not style. UX is about functionality and usability.
Contrast is an objective measure. There are well studied and known levels where you can have trouble reading, or an easy time reading. Similarly, things like drag regions not even aligning with visual elements are literally indefensible. This stuff is so basic you'd fail a UX 101 course with it.
Things like spotlight defaulting to the newest item so that when you hit enter and it changes your selected item the millisecond before you hit enter. I'm not even sure how you'd try to defend UI elements literally flickering as either style or not affecting usability.
It's objectively bad by a great many widely agreed upon and studied standards.
No, I don’t generally use betas. In fact the Liquid Glass release was the first time I DID sign up for betas, but only after the actual release because I wanted to get the fixes faster.
While they’ve improved some of the contrast issues, all the other issues I mentioned are there to this day.
I’m gonna keep my expectations in check, but this would be a good opportunity to get back to live presentations. I just watched a 1997 Macworld recording and the audience has really been something that I missed since COVID.
I miss the live presentations too, there's no tension or humanity watching a polished prerecorded video compared to someone having to demo live. It would also discourage them from pulling another Apple Intelligence fiasco and announcing a bunch of features they don't have developed yet. Though I'm sure they're more wary of that than anyone for the time being.
Maybe I'm being too hopeful but the MacBook Neo was announced at live presentations in a few cities around the world, and Ternus did the presentation at their New York event. Perhaps the guy is also partial to live presentations? It's not impossible that Apple mostly stuck with the prerecorded presentations because Cook didn't like the old way. I wouldn't say he's the most natural presenter, he always seemed a bit uncomfortable on stage.
To be honest, a lot of industry analysts were skeptical of Jobs' second coming. And when he did a deal with Microsoft, most of them thought they were right in their initial pessimism.
Over the time I developed the instinct to not take pundit's opinions too seriously.
Pundits... or might it just be that people can't predict markets and behavior without large error margins and compounding effects that magnify these errors further over time?
Guilty. I predicted they would decline, due to a lack of new products. I guess I was right in a sense, but I didn’t see the potential of optimising what was already there.
I also love the Vision Pro, actually, I think it’s brilliant, so that was an exception to the rule too.
Very glad to see this finally happen. It's been in the rumors for a while now that Ternus would be the next CEO but the timeline was uncertain.
I'm interested to see what Ternus' first few moves are and how much he will avoid (or hopefully embrace) reversing some of the things Cook is responsible for.
He has a long row to hoe when it comes to things like developer relations but from what I've heard, he is one of the best options we had for the next CEO.
> interested to see what Ternus' first few moves are
As it happens with most big corp c-suite transitions (see: Amazon), a lot of powerful executives will have to make way for the new CEO's chosen ones, and what those chosen few do (in lieu of asserting new found power) will dictate the short-term.
Johny is one of the most talented people I have ever had the privilege to work with. He has played a singular role in driving Apple's silicon strategy, and his influence has been felt deeply not just inside the company, but across the industry. He has always led his organization with remarkable deftness and judgment, and time and again, his team has delivered breakthrough innovations that have transformed our products. We are incredibly fortunate to have him as Apple's chief hardware officer.
I appreciate what Cook did for the hardware, but he really failed on the software side. Too many little and annoying bugs. I look forward to Ternus improving that side while maintaining the same hardware quality.
While I don't agree with many things Cook has done during his tenure, like the Touch Bar and removing the SD card slot from MacBooks, I have to admit the man knows how to make money.
I don't like that Tim Cook added the touch bar and removed the SD card slot, but you have to give him credit for also removing the touch bar and adding the SD card slot ;)
Hah, had a funny moment along these lines. SD vs MicroSD came up as a topic. I glanced down at my M3 MBP and said, “looks like MacBook Pros use the regular SD slot.” The guy solemnly informed me that actually, Apple had removed the SD card slot from my laptop. His face turned red when I turned it to show him.
Nothing but respect for Tim Cook. I feel fortunate that a company as principled as Apple on privacy and human values holds a dominant position in computing and makes quality products. I once encountered him dining alone in Palo Alto, years ago. He struck me as a humble man, someone who happens to be gifted and has put that gift to good use. A beacon of light from Alabama. I’m grateful for his efforts, and hopeful that Ternus can carry the Apple legacy forward as the baton passes to the next generation.
I'm quite curious what Tim Cook's legacy will end up being.
There is no question many of Apple's business experienced significant, impressive growth during his tenure. Amazing capital efficiency.
There is also no question Apple lost product velocity. Few new products were launched, and those that were had mixed success.
Tim was, at the end of the day, an elite financial operator. Apple shareholders were lucky to have him. Customers like myself probably have mixed opinions, and it remains to be seen how he set the company up for the future.
I'm just pointing out product velocity slowed. I'm far from the first person to say it, it's just a fact. In the five years before Cook we got first generation Apple TV, iPhone, iPad, and MacBook Air. Your list spans 14 years.
One could add the Vision Pro, MacBook Neo, Mac Studio, HomePods, and so on to the list as well.
The reality is everyone just wants another hit product like the iPhone, but its success was based on it being a personal convergence device. You can't really create a second carryable/wearable convergence device and expect it to be wildly successful at the level of the iPhone without it killing off the iPhone.
So far that revolutionary approach by third parties has not succeeded against the iPhone, and the evolutionary approach apple takes with the iPhone means there is no clear inflection point anywhere in the future where the phone form factor goes away.
Yes, a very successful CEO and he secured a great legacy. I was skeptical when Jobs stepped down, but under Cook innovation did continue, but primarily in hardware.
> Few new products were launched, and those that were had mixed success.
Tim oversaw the launch of the Apple Watch, Airpods, Airtags, Apple Pay, the Beats acquisition (which lead to Apple Music) and the launch of the M series chips.
He's had quite a few product launches under his belt, many of them company-defining products.
The M series transition was perfectly executed, but that trajectory was set up before Jobs left when they went all-in on in-house semiconductor design.
Apple released their first in-house ARM processor 16 years ago, and the M series is descendent from that lineage and acquisitions that got them started in that business such as PA Semi and Intrinsity.
Cook absolutely deserves credit for the successful desktop ARM transition, but building ARM processors in-house was in no way something he directed as CEO.
Jobs was likely very burned out on IBM failing to deliver a 3Ghz PowerPC G5 and one with a low enough TDP for a PowerBook.
So he switches to Intel because he needs chips, but the vulnerability still exists, and it's what happened again after the Skylake launch and the ensuing 4 years of terrible Macs designed for silicon that didn't exist.
Steve saw the danger, and probably acquired PA Semi because of it as well as the fact that PA Semi actually did deliver a power efficient PowerPC G5, even if it was a bit late.
Steve had the vision. Cook executed it very well. They both deserve credit.
To me, Tim Cook has turned Apple into a company that is both “doing amazingly well” and “in urgent need of a radical change in direction” at the same time.
FaceID, AirPods, Apple Silicon, Vision Pro (though it was flop was a good try). Overall, I would actually place Tim above Steve in terms of business, although maybe not from a Human Computer Interaction design novelty perspective
Tim Cook is a businessman who made the company bigger than Jobs could.
But he is not an aestheticist as much as Jobs was. See how Cook has been destroying the faces of iPhones and Macs, which had a huge dent or what is ironically called a "dynamic" island on the top of the screen. Back of iPhones is desparetely ugly.
Also he has not been presenting what makes us exicted. Apple's Siri is forgotten so that he has to rely on Google's Gemini instead of developing their own. While Samsung's Galaxy has been deploying its 7th foldable phone, Apple has done none. Leaks are usual so we can tell what he will show at its annual conference well before he acutually does and it gives us no surprise at all.
In a short term, "what Cook's Apple has innovated?" -- I guess zero. Rather, deteriorated.
As a long-standing user who started computer life with Performa 5220, keep using Macs as main machines and now run M3 MAX Macbook Pro to develop web apps, current Apple is never what I think it should be.
Making the company bigger is great. But what about their products and services? These are also where Cook has been leading to. He seems to forget Job's aphorism, "Stay hungry, stay foolish."
I don't think this is true. Apple Watch is basically in a market of its own. iPad might have existed before Cook but he turned it into something people actually use for stuff. Vision Pro may not be a financial success but the tech is impressive and it's clear that work will pay off in the near term in other wearables. Apple Silicon is a phenomenal success. Apple TV is no longer a hobby and he's been at the helm while they've developed their entire services business. AirPods rule the headphone market. Not mention the numerous Mac variants he presided over.
Many of their acquired pro tools, and pretty much all of their server hardware and software, though much of that started before Cook took over. Plus the Mac Pro missteps were on his watch, as well as the current cancellation. Apple seems more and more unwilling to invest in niche hardware like the Mac Pro, except where they see it pushing the platform forward, like the Vision Pro.
Whoa, didn't expect the announcement to come so soon. Of course, the sound bytes were everywhere, but even then, this was a surprise announcement.
So, the Tim Cook era lasted 15 years (2011 - 2026). He's 65yo, and he could have easily hung in there for a few more years. But I believe he's leaving at the peak -- both Apple's and his own -- and this might be the best time to leave, rather than being forced out (as many too-long-in-the-tooth CEOs have been) when the company inevitably grows slower, or has a crisis.
Ternus is 50-51 yo, roughly the age when Cook himself took over Apple. There the similarities disappear. Ternus is a HW guy through-and-through. I hope he has solid SW and Design team with him. He's gonna need it, given all the big/small design snafus in the recent past. [Not including Mac Neo in there, which looks stellar by any means]
Wishing him luck; he's gonna need it.
(and me too, my $$$ are invested in AAPL, and I ain't selling anytime soon, so well ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ )
In retrospect, it seems Apple telegraphed Ternus well in advance - the NYT had an article well in January that clearly wasn't a source of friction with Apple Marketing.
Some people might say Tim is leaving but he got himself promoted, just like Bezos. So, being an “Executive” chairman he’s going to be actively involved and be responsible, but not on daily basis and deep into each of verticals.
Also, going over his past statements as recent as during this year, it seems like he didn’t want to leave his CEO position, so he got forced out?
> Also, going over his past statements as recent as during this year, it seems like he didn’t want to leave his CEO position, so he got forced out?
I bet that was just good message management. The steadiest approach to a CEO transition is to make it seem a long way off until the moment it happens. Markets don’t like any wobbling at the top.
Tim Cook really set John Ternus up to succeed as incoming CEO. Apple has a huge constituency that needs to be reassured about this change: customers, fans/developers, wall street, and global political leaders. These are HUGE stakes and John needs early wins with each to be seen as a legitimate successor. Check out what wins he has coming in the next year-ish:
1. Hardware: OLED touchscreen Macs, foldable iPhone (2026) & 20th anniversary iPhone (2027). The message here is about flexing his strength in hardware.
2. Software: Snow leopard-like iOS27/macOS27 fixing a lot of Liquid Glass' rough edges. The message here is he's returning Apple to form with quality software.
3. Ecosystem: Gemini-powered Siri. The message here is he's getting Apple finally on track to meet the promise of AI.
4. Political context: A clean slate. The message here is placating the president (or anyone) is in the past.
The timing is interesting because Apple needed Ternus announced before WWDC27 in June, because that's when Gemini-Siri and Snow Leopard-OS strategy are both being unveiled. But they needed to delay it as long as they could so that Tim Cook could soak up as much Trump-chaos as was necessary. Now that polls and vibes show Trump losing support across the board, politically it's the safest it's ever been to announce this change, and still enough time before WWDC to suggest that what's being announced are his initiatives.
I don’t closely follow the news about Apple and now I’m wondering why they decided to go forward with this change at this moment.
As the world undergoes increasing supply chain issues, wouldn’t it be in Apple’s best interest to keep Tim Cook as CEO for a while? Or is he the one who’s looking to transition to a less demanding position?
Cook is also 65 and doubtless has more money than god. He's been a great success and it's not unreasonable to think he may have wanted to start riding into the sunset. Apple's wishes are irrelevant at some level.
I think supply chain optimization is untenable in a chaotic global trade environment. You don’t need to be an expert to buy from more suppliers and lay in a supply of stock. JIT falls apart when tariffs go from 20% to 120% to 15% based on whims and court cases.
Very happy about this news. I think he might could bring apple back to a innovation culture company again. Seems well balanced Jobs + Cook. Looking forward next 18 month of Apple. I already setup recurring investment for Apple in 2 months ago, finger cross
Thank you Tim Cook, as I am writing this on an iPhone.
Is this a golden opportunity to take on the software side of Apple, native apps like photos and messages, notes app? So much good data we give to Apple apps sit their idling, there is a play here to turn them into an independent playable artifacts and shared digital human network company. My friend emma has her snack Game on! I would like to get a snack list derived from her snack data. Yes, texting works but there is no programmatic way of accessing each other’s data. I believe this data needs be freed from Apple.
Apple’s privacy approach is stellar, that quest though is a prison where our data goes and does a slow death.
Big shoes to fill. Steve Jobs vouched for Tim Cook to be CEO…then Tim has been the CEO to see Apple become a global billion dollar company. This new CEO has been at apple for like 25 years (I think) so I’m sure he’ll do fine.
I do think Ternus being at Apple for 25-years (2001) is getting lost in the story.
It's also the year the iPod was launched, which capitulated Apple from near bankruptcy a few years before to then having the cash it needed to invest in R&D on things like transitioning to Intel, creation of iPhone, etc.
There’s a lot of commentary to the effect that the Mac hardware is good, but the software is somehow terrible.
Speaking as someone who first used a Mac Plus, graduated to an SE/30, and is now on a Mac mini m4 pro… I can remember when Macintosh was widely held to be an acronym for Most Applications Crash, If Not, The Operating System Hangs. The software has always been terrible, until you try the other guys’ stuff. The hardware has often been good, and is in a purple period right now. Enjoy it while it lasts! (It won’t).
My personal hope for John Ternus is that he relaxes some of Apple's anti-competitive bullshit to the point where the company is willing to make iPads actually useful for anything other than 2D drawing apps. As someone who has been daily-driving an M1 iPad Pro for five years, the iPad is the most glaring hole in Apple's lineup in terms of usefulness.
Yes, I get that the iPad is supposed to be a "casual computing device" or whatever. Yes, I know Apple has delivered significant improvements to iPadOS's capabilities in those five years. But using it still feels like wearing a straitjacket a lot of the time.
I'd love the m5 ipad pro (with some more RAM please), and just use macos on it
I have almost no use for the keyboard that's attached to my macbook. I use an external one. On the plane it's in the way. The only use for the keyboard is when taking it with me somewhere which is not my regular spot. And even then a portable bottomcase (keyboard+touchpad) would be great.. Basically an iPad
Now that the Microsoft exclusive has ended for Qualcomm (ex-Apple) laptops, upcoming Arm laptops from Dell/HP/Lenovo should be well supported by Google's unified ChromeOS+Android desktop, which includes a full Debian Linux pKVM VM with vGPU accelerated graphics. Plus the Nvidia-Mediatek Arm gaming laptops.
These new devices will combine Arm performance-per-watt, thousands of Linux OSS packages, ChromeOS desktop SaaS and Google Play Store touch-optimized local apps. Apple could compete by enabling MacOS and/or Linux VMs on iPad Pro, without forcing Pro users to jump through JIT-enabling hoops for iSH or UTM.
For a long time I was hoping it would be Jeff Williams. For the brief moments these heads at Apple get the spotlight, I always felt he gave off a sense of humanity and sincerity.
Yeah glad to see a hardware person take the helm and not a bean counter. The hardware is masterful now. Let’s keep it that way. Wonder if he kills the Vision Pro.
It is a net positive to have a technologist and hardware leader at the helm. In this era, Apple can hire the right people to build software faster. but they need a strong hardware leader at the helm to differentiate themselves. In local AI, they have a unique opportunity, but limited window of time.
Tim has done an amazing job in the post-Jobs era with his logistics. Brought Apple from $350B to $4T. This move makes perfect sense as Apple needs to start their next chapter with how rapid the world is changing at the moment. I do hope Apple's values don't change going into this new era.
Sounds like a good choice. Glad to have an engineer in charge. Tim Cook is no spring chicken. I do hope Ternus maintains the focus on privacy.
That focus on privacy pisses off a lot of devs (Yours Truly, included), but I sincerely believe in it. I write apps that Serve a demographic that values privacy.
It's exciting to see that the new CEO of Apple is a hardware guy.
I was just thinking about what had been avoiding enshittification, and Apple's hardware was the only thing I came up.
All other stuff, all products from Google, MS, Facebook, Twitter, and even Nvidia though the performance was improved has gone downhill.
It's not only tech companies, but fast food, car manufacturers, real estate, and many others, if it wasn't shit from the start like consulting, healthcare, and marketing.
They have flaws, like not allowing users to repair the hardware, but well, at least it's consistent.
I really hope Apple (hardware at least) will remain free from enshittification.
I wish Apple would lean into gaming and create a competitive GPU system. Does not have to compete with a 5090, but 5070 level and game developers will come and port games. Huge untapped market. I still have to run a dedicated gaming PC just to play games (especially Flight Simulator).
I get that this year's iPhone will be marketed as the first under Ternus's overall leadership, but truthfully, we can expect next year's to have more of his mark, since I imagine most of the details for the iPhone 18 have long been done, dusted and set into motion.
I'm really hopeful about John Ternus stepping into the CEO role. Pretty much everything he's done leading Apple's hardware engineering has been an enormous unqualified success, and for a company like Apple, having hardware lead the company seems like the right step.
Some design stuff are quite bad like the Liquid Glass, but the rest is fine I think. The M series wouldn't have gone as well as it did if software side wasn't up for the task
It would certainly be neat to hear if Apple can find the guts to do something interesting with new leadership at the wheel. As is, it feels like the entire company has just been a bizarre, indifferent stasis for near two decades.
The other day, I was watching a video by fpt.(@FrontPageTech) entitled Tim Cook is Leaving Apple from Mar 12, and honestly, seeing this news today, I had to go back and rewatch it again and it strikes hard on me, especially at the linked time (https://youtu.be/8xo4uG7YpJI?si=eHP5yyEOFGn85ajv&t=278). At 6:46, Jon Prosser said: John Ternus is the next CEO of Apple.
You may also be interested in this video where Jon Rettinger predicted that John Ternus will be the next Apple CEO.
Goodbye Tim! A new era for Apple (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zbqLWZtdQTc)
This period in Apple’s history will be the cold ice bath post Jobs.
There may be serious fanboy energy to this but Apple has so much dry powder going for it still, and to put that in the hands of someone who actually builds, along with what looks to be a strong rumor mill year with VR stuff and the foldable to create a big tailwind… it seems like a pretty intentional move.
Also if they dropped one more subscription on us before expanding categories they might’ve caused an avalanche in lack of confidence.
Cook did an excellent job of raking in cash for bet the company size bets that he wouldn’t be guaranteed to see through. The dude is clearly a salt of the earth, values guy, should enjoy a proper retirement era.
Sad to see Tim Cook leaving as I was enjoying this downtrend of Apple products that is driving users to more open (and better) solutions like Linux PCs.
I cross fingers for John Ternus to still be greedy and not being too competent.
when job of ceo is to make sure that policies around the globe don't interfere with business: "Cook will assist with certain aspects of the company, including engaging with policymakers around the world."
That's a surprising and amazing decision. Putting a key element of the hardware side of the business at the head of it might lead to a some amazing hardware upgrades and innovations! All for it
they replacing person doing horizontal scalability with vertical.
do they predict problems of some sort - like lost of ability to small down transistors for a while or supply chain disruption(increased prices of components sourcing)?
I have used Macs since the Classic era. My best Mac was a PowerBook G4 that could run Windows on a VM faster than most Windows machines at the time. My first MacBook was brilliant, but I have noticed a decline since then. My 6-year-old MacBook Pro really struggles nowadays, whereas I remember a time when people proudly said their 10-year-old Macs were still snappy even during rosetta.
Currently, Linux is the preferred choice for work. Windows 11 Enterprise is not bad when stripped of all social, news, and 360 ads overhead, but Microsoft is really trying hard to mess it up there too.
Edit: 6 years old, not 4, and also Intel Macbook, so due an upgrade for sure
Your M2 MacBook Pro really struggles? That is genuinely crazy, given that I use one as a daily driver and it feels just as fast as the day I bought it.
I think the Apple Silicon transition has increased Mac longevity far beyond the Intel or PowerPC eras, and I am quite baffled you think otherwise.
Is it an Intel MacBook? I think those sucked for obvious reasons outside Apple’s control (Intel getting stuck at 14nm for ages) which they’ve already fixed (by abandoning Intel).
The M1 MacBook Air was more powerful than the top Intel i9 MBP config if I recall correctly.
Apple hardware has been a shining light for Apple for the past 5-10 years, even if a bit lucky. I’m curious how this effects the company as a whole going forward, hopefully positive
Earlier than I expected. Seeing that Johny Srouji got promoted as well, this reshuffle might have been a way to make sure he stays for a few more years as well?
Like Sam Altman, Tim Cook makes me think that what we fear in AI is already here. These two guys are corporate robots that act only in the service of the bottom line.
Do you have any specific questions? The request for "what's wrong with Apple software" is about the size of a Wikipedia page to answer and what people are saying in the comments seems quite clear to me. Since you're referring to comments, but none in particular, I'm not sure what parts you want an elaboration on. It might also help to just ask in a thread that has information you find unclear
It has become very buggy in recent years. Lots of glitches. And the liquid glass fiasco didn’t help.
Historically there were so few bugs in Apple’s software that to encounter even one was a jarring experience. Now they’ve reverted to the mean, and it’s just as buggy as Windows or Android. So if you’re comparing with them, no big deal. But compared to Apple standards we’ve fallen a long way.
Any chance of a future where hardware can be customized at the design stage, like 3D printing but taken to an even higher level, even for 1-off builds? So prompt-driven manufacturing? For example, a watch with a USB-C port?
One day that watch could be your only PC. And then some type of eyeglass for a screen. Can also do "terrain overlays" Terminator style. I suppose battery power is the bottleneck so maybe long-distance wireless power delivery is the key (as what Tesla originally created.) So no battery at all.
Well, if I was Apple, I would not put one of their software guys into the position since the software leadership team has been ineffective. So either hire externally (crapshoot) or promote internally. It makes sense. Hopefully the hardware guys will knock some sense into the software leadership and impose accountability in that arena.
Apple accidentally has a giant moat in having the only hardware that can run AI models locally on consumer products, plus not having thrown a huge pile of money into the tar pit of model training, which is ultimately becoming a race to the bottom with identical products, perfect competition, and razor thin (currently negative) margins.
They're gonna be fine in the AI age just like Costco was able to be a honey badger about e-commerce.
Consider that is mostly public headway. Behind the scenes the handover, mentorship, alignment I am sure was already happening for a while. E.g. you probably don't want the incoming CEO to have to immediately clean house or people might end up doubting their decisions, getting anxious or similar. The previous CEO can start retiring, moving people around to clear out possibly problematic leaders, break up internal "gangs" and ways of work - people will be more willing to accept their decision as they've been at the head for a while and have the trust. The new CEO comes in, group dynamics and rules are still fresh and building up between everyone, they don't have a black mark for firing anyone - to me it just feels like it would be a healthier and more mature transition.
To support this I was thinking about (and obviously Googling these names because I definitely don't know them by heart, only that they recently left) the change of CFO Luca Maestri to Kevan Parekh, John Giannandrea being removed, Alan Dye leaving and being replaced with Steve Lemay.
So I take those 4 months more as like an FYI to the public than anything else. Though I am definitely not someone that knows corporate politics all that well (or at all), just mostly thinking out loud in response to your comment.
Yup. The rumor mill was talking about a CEO change for a while, and around the time you saw the rumors building you saw the departures you mentioned. Ternus was being mentioned as the likely successor at least back to November last year. So internally the shifts have already been happening for some time, only observable on the outside via the high profile departures.
Given how quickly Cook had to step in for jobs, first in the interim role, four months seems like plenty of time (particularly given he's still executive chairman).
No issue performance-wise but I wish there was more innovation, especially with the iPhones. For example, I was really impressed with Samsung's privacy screen demo.
The iPhone is fine, but I find them to be... boring. The SoCs are very good, but they don't have the best cameras, the best batteries, the fastest charging, the most innovative displays, etc. Apple isn't pushing that hard there.
Yeah, I thought Cook would stay on until the end of the Trump-admin in order to keep ‘swallowing the dead rats’ so that the next CEO would have a clean plate.
Midterms Nov, so it’s all about to be over - either trump heads towards impeachment, America doubles down on its descent, or democracy ends. Either way, not point hanging around after that. If he’s impeached there’s a fresh start. If he does well, then this regime isn’t going anywhere for the long term. If the elections aren’t free then better get used to it.
If Apple really wants to keep their long term users in its ecosystem, it should really drop stupid Liquid glass design, stop making macOS look like its mobile OSs, and bring skeuomorphism back, which was removed by John Ive.
I disagree. They should bring quality back before reintroducing more changes. Okay, maybe that means dropping Liquid Glass. But also readopt the HIG. Increase stability and performance and reduce attack vector.
Wonder how much of this decision has to do with the current climate and not wanting to deal with the current head. I was quite disappointed to see cook towing the line and bending the knee, let’s see what Ternus will do
Tim gifted Donald a trophy 8 months ago doing his legacy no favors. You wouldn't do this if you knew you were on your way out. Makes me wonder if something happened between August 2025 and now.
You give a trinket to a near dictator in order to not have your company, which you're responsible for, dragged over the coals and attacked by a psychopathic goverment. In the grand scheme of things this was a completely genius play and did no harm to anyone.
That's a reasonable take - Apple had a gun to their head regarding tarriffs and exposure to China, but I'd still love to know how Steve would have played the same hand.
If you compare the trajectories, I think it’s safe to say software has been a dumpster fire under Craig compared to what’s been accomplished on the hardware side. The fact that Craig has been the face of WWDC for many years made many people see him as the face of the company but it’s been clear they have been elevating Ternus’s visibility in product announcements for a few years now.
Apple is currently lightyears ahead in privacy compared to any other major consumer tech company, is this going to still be the case with Mr. Ternus at the helm? That's not a question meant to be answered right away, but my current mindset evaluating the change in leadership as a consumer.
EDIT: Also, can Apple take over the data center already? I am sick of HP and Dell.
Tim Cook will be one of the legendary CEOs in history.
he knows when to be conservative - and knows when to push hard.
qualities very few CEOs have shown to have in practice.
all his contemporary competitors have ridden on certain waves e.g A.I to increase company valuation - while he did sorely on just pure operations not hype.
I have to admit, regardless of whatever opinions you may have on Apple, Tim is/was probably the best bug tech CEO in the sea of evil ones out there, or evil and grifters, he remained focused on what’s the best might be for the users and also the company.
At least John has an engineering background, been with company for couple decades and not some private equity/hedge fund/wannabe Steve Jobs visionary douchebag.
Personally, I have lost all interest in Apple and been slowly switching off their hw/sw/saas for some time.
Surprised that someone from Gen X is getting the opportunity to lead a company of this caliber. We've spent most of our adult lives getting smothered by Boomers and Millennials.
Thanks for making all that money, Tim. Now please retire. Please.
This is one of the more broadly normal HN-reaction threads to large public news event I've seen in a while. A lot of love for Apple, respect for the decision, and respectfully stated nuance. Surprising and good.
I still haven't scroll down to the bottom, I don't want to spoil my impression. But it's great to see a positive reaction. Good way to mark the moment. Tim has been CEO for 15 years roughly, since Steve's passing. This guy seems much younger than Tim was when he ascended. I hope he really takes it to the next level.
Got a feeling that Apple has some Amazing new hardware category-making products coming out of the 'skunkworks' over the next 3 years.
trying to find the context, saurik seemsto be Jay Freeman[0], known for Cydia[1]; i'm guessing apple was 'unhappy' about his work around software for jailbroken iphones, but nothing immediately popped up, what did they do?
oh i guess it's from a court hearing[2] when his company was suing apple over app store monopoly ("... they are talking about an iOS update that, quote, broke Cydia Impactor. Where they said, it feels too good to destroy someone's spirit. We did something else today that will kill him again with a little smiley emoticon.")
How dare you insult the forty gazillion company! Stand back ma'am I'll protect you from this handsome hacker ruffian!
Jokes aside, I have started to see Microslop as the lesser of two evils (two evils being MSFT and AAPL, Google being its own parallel universe abomination). Their commitment to backward compatibility really paved the way to cheap PCs for the masses. That said, every day Macroslop is working diligently to prove me wrong.
Do they no longer charge annual licenses for Windows Server?
On that topic, it’s always surprised me just how little Apple invest into their enterprise / business backend services. Everything about the way they integrate Macs into businesses is awkward. Apple could make so much money there if they wanted to. It’s a real missed opportunity.
>On that topic, it’s always surprised me just how little Apple invest into their enterprise / business backend services. Everything about the way they integrate Macs into businesses is awkward. Apple could make so much money there if they wanted to. It’s a real missed opportunity.
Agreed! My $DAYJOB is an Apple shop and the Apple "Business" offerings are horrible. No support for a proper business developer account is annoying. A single human is responsible for this and when that human moves to a different company or role then you have to reassign the account to a different human. Configuring SSO is another trap. You have to capture a domain to add SSO but after you do that your users can't access the Apple App Store (for some reason).
There are so many places that Apple could improve their "Business" business, but they seem hell bent on not doing that. Maybe Mr. Ternus will address this issue.
The issue is that nobody (relatively speaking) uses Windows Server.
I don’t even think Microsoft is all that adamant that their customers use it.
It’s just not competitive with Linux and that ship has sailed. Linux is better and costs $0. Microsoft lets you run .NET applications on Linux and they’re better there.
I think the same thing happened with SQL Server. Nobody’s choosing it for new projects, its niche is basically legacy software.
I agree that Apple is missing an opportunity with business and enterprise but I think the issue is that they’re so far behind that catching up would be a massive investment that might never pay off.
This is similar to saying that Microsoft missed an opportunity with smartphone ecosystems. They could spend billions on getting a smartphone back on the market and it would arrive and everyone would ask the question “why am I buying this when my iPhone has X million apps on its store and is a nearly perfect device?”
If Apple Enterprise Cloud was available today who is switching and why? Apple would have to undercut established players to convince businesses to switch via a massive migration effort.
I work with fortune 500 clients, and all of them use Windows server for something. Usually a lot of somethings. For example: Active Directory.
If we look at Microsoft's revenue I think it's pretty clear that they do in fact care an awful lot about Windows Server - or at least should.
In fiscal year 2025, Microsoft Corporation's revenue by segment:
Devices: $17.31 B
Dynamics Products And Cloud Services: $7.83 B
Enterprise Services: $7.76 B
Gaming: $23.46 B
Linked In Corporation: $17.81 B
Microsoft Three Six Five Commercial Products And Cloud Services: $87.77 B
Microsoft Three Six Five Consumer Products and Cloud Services: $7.40 B
Other Products And Services: $72.00 M
Search Advertising: $13.88 B
Search And News Advertising: $13.88 B
Server Products And Cloud Services: $98.44 B
Server Products And Tools: $98.44 B
Windows: $17.31 B
I don’t think this is clear at all because the segments are lumped together and highly unclear.
What’s the difference between “server products and cloud services” and “server products and tools?”
I assume the former is Azure and the latter is on-premise.
In that case if we lump 365 in with server products and cloud tools then it shows that 2/3 of the enterprise revenue is going to cloud and 1/3 is on-premise (and I assume that 1/3 is declining over time)
You only need a couple of Active Directory and Exchange servers here and there. But who's using IIS or SQL Server these days? Sharepoint also seems to be on a downturn.
You’re talking about LAMP-type set ups and I’m talking about Windows Desktop integration services. Smaller orgs will use cloud services but many larger organisations, colleges, and the like will likely have a fleet of Windows servers running in VMs (traditionally VMWare but that might have changed since Broadcom bought them).
However if you do want to talk about services outside of fleet management, then there are plenty of niches where Windows Server has a surprising foothold. Though typically they’re domains which haven’t been disrupted by “tech bros”, which is why you don’t read about it much on HN.
> This is similar to saying that Microsoft missed an opportunity with smartphone ecosystems.
They did. But we are talking specifically about fleet management and not any random tech-adjacent industry.
> If Apple Enterprise Cloud was available today who is switching and why? Apple would have to undercut established players to convince businesses to switch via a massive migration effort.
The existing players only exist because Apples default offering is basically non-existent. Apple wouldn’t need to undercut them, just be comparably priced. The reason being that if you already have a business account with Apple then you don’t need to go through the pan of getting a new supplier approved by the board (etc).
As for existing businesses, if they’re already large enough that fleet management is a concern then they’re large enough to have people on payroll who manage that fleet. And thus to perform that migration. It might even be part of their laptop refresh program.
And if Apple had an enterprise fleet management service then they’d be able to offer tools that are locked to their fleet management (eg remote wipe). Which would heavily incentivise businesses not to go with 3rd parties.
Maybe they could find another way to market it, e.g. Windows is free but with ads, and there is a subscription which makes ads go away. Or something else. Some creativity is needed.
I don't disagree. A big reason 2026 is the Year of the Desktop Linux is that MSFT lost any interest in the Desktop PC platform. Outside selling more of my data and filling it with AI Slop.
But if, say, AAPL had won the PC wars, we'd be staring at a much more locked-down, much more expensive OS experience.
Well, before Apple, most phones were appliances with fixed software; there was no openness to speak of. That said, I wish they hadn't continued this trend and instead took inspiration from Windows Mobile.
But then came Java and Wap. You could, in theory, download a jar from a site and try to run it. God knows if it would run. But it wasn't a locked-down app store that bypassing would land you in hot water.
Before iphone mobile phones were running Java applets, which were sometimes even compatible across different phone manufacturers and users even could exchange them over infrared. In contrast first iPhone initially had no support for third party software, only web apps.
> Before iphone mobile phones were running Java applets, which were sometimes even compatible across different phone manufacturers and users even could exchange them over infrared.
"Sometimes" doing a lot of heavy lifting.
Nokia had an app store, and before you could see the available apps you have to first choose your phone: because even with-in Nokia's own product range there was so much variation in screens, keyboards, and general capabilities that they had to pre-apply a filter to show you what would actually work.
Excuse me while I get permission from sixteen levels of managers inside Cingular, U.S. Cellular, Cincinnati Bell, PrimeCo, and the fifty different regional carriers calling themselves "Cellular One" to offer my app on their networks.
I'm not claiming that iPhones are open to the extent that HN griefers want it to be, but you must have been freshly hatched in the years before the iPhone to think the ecosystem was open.
I say this as someone who developed some of the first mobile phone weather apps. (Before "app" was even a word.)
I may be guilty of the same thing you're mentioning (I'm in the USA), but my Nokia 6210 came with a carrier lock and I wasn't even able to visit websites via the WAP browser unless my carrier approved of them because WAP acted like a sort of mandatory vendor operated proxy that allowed them to see and filter everything the phone did. They would, for example, filter out websites about ringtones to try and force you to buy theirs for $0.99/piece.
My experience with a Nokia 6210 was very much the opposite of what you describe.
It was exactly like the GP described in the UK too. All-powerful carriers at a time when Apple was almost bankrupt, before Google was a verb and before Microsoft made phones that would crash just sitting waiting for a call.
> Apple basically spearheaded the war on general computation. Before them, phones used to be more or less open, Apple cracked down on that very quickly.
Hopefully the Neo is the beginning of Apple making useful and affordable products for all users, instead of walling their garden to squeeze out every last penny via Cook's 'premium'-upwards-screwdriver tactics ... the history of market-dynamics suggests otherwise, but let's hope and wait there's a mindset change as well.
I think it might be the opposite. You make cheap products for everybody because you are going to make money off subscriptions. Personally, I think it's a reasonable strategy, but it might mean they lose their focus on high-end craftsmanship.
I'm sorry, are my MacBooks Pro, Air, and (my spouse's) Neo not some of the best built laptops you can buy? Maybe there's something better, but these are inarguably some of the best. Absolute top of the line.
See the Verge (I think) reviewing similarly priced laptops priced around the Neo. They were plastic crap, even if they had better specs elsewhere.
the M line of macbook pro's are beautiful, well crafted, long lasting machines.
MacOS might not be your preferred way of working, and you might prefer cheaper options or USB-A ports, but there is really nothing you could arguably call bad craftmanship in those machines.
In addition to the sibling comment, I would point out the touch bar was poor craftsmanship and the butterfly keyboard was also poor craftsmanship. They both are addressed now, but there were several years where we had to live with them.
Their software craftsmanship has really suffered in the last 10 years.
I thought the touchbar was pretty neat, it was just a mistake to replace the function row with them. It also was hard to get adoption because it wasn’t available on desktop Macs or their cheaper laptops so developers had no incentive to really do anything interesting with them.
I think a better implementation might have been to have it be an alternate mode for the trackpad and sell external trackpads that also had it so it could be used everywhere. But I get why that didn’t happen, the touchbar was basically being run with a mini Apple Watch SOC built into the MacBook Pro, and it’s primary use was to have the Secure Enclave on it. The touchbar itself was a deal where they could find a use for having an otherwise idle smartwatch’s worth of computing power in there, but that wouldn’t be doable if it’s sold as an external device.
I mean, they're not bad, but they have spicy chargers, the corners are uncomfortably sharp, the keyboard often doesn't register, the LCD is prone to vertical bars and other issues even without physical damage and is extremely sensitive to bumps and other minor damage elsewhere on the laptop (not even the display itself), and so on.
Some of these are consequences of what makes them feel "premium" or even "solid". Aluminum is a terrible material for bumps and drops because it dents, and that often damages the internal components.
I've never bought a Mac, I have used them for work. They are the best built laptops on the market, bar none. Too bad their OS is awful. Its not just marketing.
Have you actually looked at apple products and compared them to the competition? The different in quality of finish is really stark in my experience. Some other manufacturers have some products which have some nice features. Whatever you think of the software or ecosystem, almost Apple hardware is just nicely made.
Is that really true? The price of Macs today is far lower than it used to be when adjusted for inflation. I know this is true of all computers, but you can get a really good Mac computer without spending a lot of money, historically speaking.
The Macbook Air, the best computer for most people, starts at $1099. I paid something like $2,700 for my computer, which I brought to college in 2002. That's about $5,000 in today's money.
Interesting, but is Apple as ethical yet as its premium price point could suggest? Fairphone (material sourcing) and Framework (repairability) would suggest otherwise.
All the C-suits in Apple that normally does the presentations look completely LA style artificial. Nothing looks human about them, they always give off the same feel of un-personal, robotic, snake oil sales people; not someone that you actually would like to lead a company, as in someone who actually understands what it means to be human.
> This is one of the more broadly normal HN-reaction threads to large public news event I've seen in a while. A lot of love for Apple, respect for the decision, and respectfully stated nuance. Surprising and good.
In other words, nothing insightful or worth talking about. I don't want to read news for feelgood vibes.
But there is interesting information in lots of the comments. Like the quote from Ternus about Apple Maps in one of the comments. This gives relevant insight of how he thinks and how he might handle problems when he takes over.
If it's interesting to note that there are mostly nuanced takes and positive vibes in the thread, and an otherwise low-value meta comment is deemed to be a worthy top comment for saying so, then I suggest an auto-generated AI summarization comment pinned to every long HN thread. This will surely save everyone the trouble of doing so...
(I am not claiming the top comment is AI generated, only that an AI generated summarization of the thread can function just as well in its stead, despite the occasional inaccuracies)
Critical thought is not about negativity, it is about evaluation. You take a statement and evaluate it based on its merits using an epistemic system which prioritizes consistently, evidence, and logical coherence.
Saying it is disagreeable is like saying that honestly is disagreeable. Sure, it can be, but it is not an inherent feature, and a lot depends on how it is delivered.
This is the ideal: friendly criticism. But first you have to make friends. If your audience aren't your friends, you can exercise your silver tongue to charm them while still delivering your criticism. If they aren't your friends and you unfortunately don't have a silver tongue, you can be negative, or be quiet, or stick to subjects they won't feel defensive about. You can't have the ideal in practical reality.
If you don't have a silver tongue, say what you mean without denigrating anyone or anything, or just don't comment at all. There is no requirement to be negative for the sake of being negative.
Yes, as algorithmic engagement has proven, most people want to read the news to get angry about stuff.
But I don't like hanging around that. I'd rather talk about tech news with nerds (old HN) and not just talk about coastal filter-bubble US politics with big tech worker bees (new HN).
US politics has definitely captured the crowd here lately. Half of the comment threads somehow devolve from discussions of Javascript frameworks into hysterical left-populist struggle sessions over the perceived political injustice of the day.
Maybe some feel good vibes and some apolitical news for the day aren't a bad thing.
Sometimes the commenters actually have genuine insights that must reports/articles will never mention. Sadly, I'm quite a cynical person that expects everything to have a spin unless it comes from an authoritative source.
In general, I'd say it's about confirmation bias and having a fluffy statement that confirms preconceived notions is hardly interesting to me. If there is anything of substance that contradicts any narrative or general consensus than I find the signal in the noise highly valuable.
But I can't speak for the general case because I don't use any social media and find rage bate quite cumbersome.
Your statement implies that positivity equals to normality. This is the same kind of statement that would imply that negativity or evil is normal.
All those statements are psychological manipulation. Being too positive or too negative makes people blind and mendable by silently suppressing their will to be themselves.
> With a new boss, Apple may be showing its strategic interest in deeper integration of AI into its hardware, said Hubbard. "The very strengths that made Apple dominant - their discipline, polish, and control - could become constraints if the next era rewards openness and faster iteration," he said.
The opposite of the basic human interface quality and consistency improvements that several commenters here hope for.
(Admittedly "Hubbard" here is just the first pundit they could grab, an Assistant Professor of Management and Organization, so this isn't the best informed prognostication.)
I honestly think they are just transitioning to a new format for user interfaces. What I mean is I think there’s some hardware coming that is going to make all of the previous user interface is redundant in someway at least in Apple’s thesis and so there’s less focus on making those traditional screens great because we’re gonna have new surfaces.
There are plenty of other big companies that people love too. Off the top of my head: Nintendo, AMD, Disney.
In the case of all of them, they may make some questionably ethical business decisions but at the same time do genuinely care about the craft they're in, pushing boundaries and making quality products.
To a large extent: the product, the gloss, the luxury-item impression. People generally aren't looking beyond that deeper into the company behind.
You can see a similar thing in the 3D printing world with Bambu Lab - people love the product (my A1 has been excellent value, very reliable, and I despite preferring my fancy more expensive toy for most tasks I would still recommend it to those starting out without specific needs that such a design can't provide), and any concern about the company behind it (slowly closing off the ecosystem, initially trying to make out that their obviously-inspired-by-the-fullspectrum-scorca-fork colour mixing option was their own original stroke of genius) doesn't matter to them.
With both Bambu and Apple part of why they get this attention is the end-to-end polish that people feel in the product experience (to be fair is a valid reason to choose those products) and a certain amount of luck in them bringing their show to market at the right time, where other companies are seen as producing more interchangeable commodity items. Without that distinction giving people a higher view of the product range, the other companies struggle to get away from the fact that we don't naturally, for good reason, trust nor love commercial entities.
The other thing working in favour of some companies is momentum: some were worthy of some adoration for higher quality products and/or greater customer care than the competition, but are no longer and it takes a while for everyone to realise how much things have changed. Disney is definitely a company that I would add to this pile, and there are others.
Another big company that seems to get a lot more adoration than any of their competition is Nintendo, though I'm not in the gaming market any more so I don't know how much of that they still earn and how much of it is just that at least they aren't Sony or Microsoft!
This reads like a good example of how prestige brands flatten people critical faculties. :-)
"A lot of love for Apple" is not evidence of wisdom or merit. It is evidence that Apple has been extraordinarily successful at converting ordinary consumer electronics into a moral aesthetic identity for its customers... Once that happens, public praise stops being about products and starts being about selfregard.
That is why Apple gets discussed in a register normally reserved for institutions that have actually earned public affection. In reality, it is a company that charges luxury prices for tightly controlled products, then persuades customers that the control is sophistication and the markup is virtue. :-)
This is mostly a case study in prestige bias. People are not just evaluating a company but protecting a status hierarchy in which buying Apple signifies discernment.
And the something amazing must be in the skunkworks line is the usual theology that means when the present is overpriced iteration, redemption is always scheduled for a few years from now.
I remember the iPhone launch queues...as in the strangest ritual in consumer tech. People camping overnight for a device that will be sitting on shelves in unlimited quantities the following week. Like queueing up for a vacuum cleaner and pretending it's the moon landing.:-)
Oh the love for a company, with the battery gate ($500M settlement for throttling phones customers already owned), the CSAM on-device scanning proposal, a decade of Irish tax routing, active lobbying against right to repair, repeated supply chain findings on child and forced labor... and a CEO who hands Trump gold while going quiet on the causes Apple used to grandstand about.
So much much to love on this company. Its poised with assholery of Steve Jobs to its core, and has no salvation. If I want luxury, I buy a laptop from Cartier...
The worst is the tell that an all Apple setup is a the near perfect filter for not a hacker. The ecosystem is engineered against the instincts that define hacking, no sideloading without ceremony, no real repair, no low level access without fighting the OS, no running what you want without Apple permission, no swapping parts that haven't been blessed with the right serial number.
Its computing for consumers, not tinkerers. Which is fine, except the culture around it borrows the prestige of technical sophistication while actively opting out of it. :-)
The Mac in the coffee shop is a lifestyle object. The ThinkPad running Linux next to it is a tool.
"The market sees all, knows all and will be there from the beginning of time until the end of the universe (the market has already priced in the heat death of the universe)."
Apple has an enormous global footprint. Their devices are made in China, India, and Vietnam, and source parts from basically everywhere. More than half of Apple's revenue comes from outside the US and there are 1.5 billion iPhones in use across the world (somewhat larger than the population of the US).
It’s not novel to critique or idolize anyone, especially given the roll undergoing the changing of the guard. It’s not like hundreds of managers are changing.
They are all still there.
But here’s to hoping that change comes. Apple is already a rich company. But isn’t that boring?
Many companies have quite a shakeup in management around big changes like this, though I’m not sure how Apple operates internally. Maybe they are an exception to the rule?
It will redefine the way we watch TV and that's exactly your job, to make something truly unique. And I'll tell you the secret sauce, the remote. I know you'll come up with something totally different, a marvel of engineering that will drop jaws around the world. Different aluminum colors and extra flat? Check. But that's not what this new generation needs. They want to watch tiktok and instagram in their TV and nobody right now offers an out-of-this-world experience. Social media consumption on a big screen. Excel at that and you will sell millions at whatever price you set.
Wow. Hopefully, Ternus will bring what he brought to Apple's hardware to their software. The hardware is leaps and bounds ahead of anything else, but their software gets worse and worse every generation. I'm glad to hear this.
Ternus recently gave an interview where he said this about the initial flop of Apple Maps:
> “When we started out with maps, it was an ambitious undertaking. It was bumpy,” said Ternus. “But the team had just been over the years just pushing and pushing and pushing. And Apple Maps today is absolutely amazing. If you have the vision and you're persistent and you keep working at it, you can take something you know that has a rocky start and turn it into something great.”
Here's hoping he recognizes that Apple's current generation of software is in the "rocky start" phase, not the "pushing and pushing" phase and definitely not the "absolutely amazing" phase. Time will tell...
https://www.tomsguide.com/computing/apples-joz-and-ternus-on...
There's some irony there in that the whole maps fiasco lead to firing of Forstall which allowed Ive to become head of design, which basically led to the current state of macOS design.
I do wish that some day someone will tell the story of what happened during that time. Maps was bad at launch yes, but it also wouldn't get better without people contributing more data, and the fact that it took a decade to slowly improve implies that there's nothing anyone could have done to get it right "off the bat". It still feels to me Forstall was set up as the fall guy, especially considering no one was fired for antennagate.
Reportedly, Forstall wasn’t liked by the other senior execs but was kept “safe” as Jobs’ protégé, they thought alike and shared the love for skeuomorphism design. Ive in particular disliked Forstall, and Tim Cook made a choice.
https://www.businessinsider.com/apples-minimalist-ive-assume...
Could Forstall potentially return under new Apple leadership?
He produces Broadway shows these days. Never say never but that kind of thing screams an “I’ve got all the cash I need, now I’m following my passions” mindset. You certainly don’t do it for the money…
And met his co-producer for the (Tony-winning!) show at Lars Ulrich's birthday party! He's doing something right. https://archive.is/ZcTJm
>He's doing something right.
Yes, being rich.
What? No. Why would he even want to?
Enormous amounts of money?
He’s already escaped the permanent underclass.
Meaning it's not permanent.
You can also get killed by a meteor. It’s just unlikely.
The idea is that it becomes permanent in the future.
The more abstract the “wealth” becomes the less it means in practical terms. The class dynamics around money mostly has to do with the State actively preserving and protecting claims over assets. If that same wealth becomes sufficiently concentrated with an overclass that it leeches away the competence and legitimacy of the State, then the underclass has other means of correcting the gap and establishing a more sustainable equilibrium.
The traditional means of reestablishing equilibrium are becoming more and more infeasible as state defenses and tactics improve. We are rapidly approaching a time when the asymmetric attacks on state protections traditionally used are less effective than the information asymmetry that the state can enforce. Hong Kong is a great example of these defenses leveraged effectively.
It’s possible, but I know people felt the same during prior technological revolutions like the advent of broadcast media (which fascist movements took too with great enthusiasm). I think people are clever, we learn from every failure and adapt.
you hit the nail on the head. the less wealthy a government the more poor its poorest citizens are because it doesn’t have the money to invest in their wellbeing. the solution has and always will be taxes
Forstall fired an engineer I had worked with (and who I respected a lot) to take the fall for Apple Maps.
Like one engineer could ever be responsible for that epic of a fiasco?
> Maps was bad at launch yes, but it also wouldn't get better without people contributing more data, and the fact that it took a decade to slowly improve implies that there's nothing anyone could have done to get it right "off the bat".
Absolutely.
Was the choice to release way way way too early the right choice in the end? Needed telemetry, or even more time, to beat Google? Also taking the data from Google must have had significant ramifications.
>And Apple Maps today is absolutely amazing.
Perhaps that is the case in the US, but in Poland, I haven't had a single app guide me into the literal bushes as many times as Apple Maps does. The straw that broke the camel's back was when, I shit you not, the navigation aspect literally expected me to drive through a lake.
The interface and the direction instructions on Apple Maps are way ahead of Google Maps. The app performance is also much smoother / snappier, it connects to the car instantly and reliably, where with Android Auto it’been always waiting and pain. But the accuracy of maps is indeed worse.
However my biggest gripe with Apple Maps in Poland is that Siri does not understand Polish and cannot be told to navigate to a Polish address. It just can’t understand the street and city names :(
Btw: I haven’t counted the times Google Maps wanted me to go through the worst possible traffic jam (where the traffic jam was not visible on the map) or a closed road. I guess it just happens with every navigation system that errors happen.
I have my iPhone set up in a way where I have "Apple Intelligence" and that, somehow, manages to pick up Polish VERY well. Might want to try it. Never have expected "play "Oddałbym" by Slums Attack from Spotify" to work - and yet it did first try, way better than any attempt I made on Google Assistant in the past decade.
The pronounciations, though, are indeed something that leaves no other option but to laugh. Expect "Rogozińska" (ruh-goh-tzeen-ska?), recieve something I fail to comprehend :-)
It does not understand English either :)
This may just be my bubble, but even among my iPhone-owning friends, I haven't seen a single person use Apple Maps in Europe, so I wouldn't be surprised if the efforts to improve the map data have been more focused on the US.
German here and me and my wife almost exclusively use Apple Maps, mainly because it looks and feels nicer. The differences in navigation are miniscule, but if we want to really check the traffic before we start we do a quick glance at Google maps. One difference in navigation we noticed is, that Apple Maps gives some small local streets - those just one revel above "Feldwege" (agricultural/forestry roads) - more weight than they should have. They are not really "single track" (almost unheard of in Germany) but come close, with no lane delineation dashes, etc.
Also in Germany, also using exclusively iPhone with carplay. Not perfect, but light years better than google maps.
I’m in Europe. I use it as part of Apple CarPlay for all my navigation and I think it’s much better than Google Maps (for car navigation, at least)
Really depends on where you are in Europe. Out here in the boonies of Portugal, it’s excellent if you’re driving a 4x4 pickup truck, which is the only vehicle of mine I use it with, as it picks very direct routes, which often involve ridiculously steep muddy dirt tracks, very narrow bridges, and generally just very underused farm tracks.
I tried using it in Bosnia, once, and it decided to use an abandoned airfield landing strip as a shortcut. Wild stuff.
This is my exact experience, but with Google Maps. Constantly suggesting gravel (or worse) side roads instead of highways and hallucinating multiple turn lanes etc on a country road about 1 car wide. It's been a few years, but I still remember the time I was in Berlin and buses didn't run due to bad weather, but I had a flight to catch so I had to walk to the Tegel airport and the route Google maps recommended ended up being quite an adventure, having to crawl through a hole in a linked fence on an unlit dead-end road next to the airport.
In the Balkans, both Apple Maps and Google Maps are completely lost.
I frequently drive through Serbia/Bulgaria/Montenegro/Macedonia, and if you ever do, do yourself a favor and install something OpenStreetMap-based.
Otherwise, you will be missing new motorways, get thrown on unpaved roads, or even asked to drive on roads that just do not exist anymore.
Apple Maps uses OSM data in many countries.
Obviously not in these then. Do you know which ones?
No, and as far as I know, they don't say. But a lot of their not-direct-from-OSM map data comes from TomTom, which also ingests OSM. There's a lot of OSM in Apple Maps, as there is in most other non-Googly mapping apps.
So it was at least concrete / tarmac instead of mud?
Concrete. Used the opportunity to do some doughnuts before continuing on our journey.
Apple Maps is absolutely very late to the game when it comes to road closures. Google Maps somehow always knows which roads are closed, even if for a few minutes.
Because users on Waze report it to them for points
Also, I'm not sure but if a road that normally has several cars a minute goes to zero cars in five minutes say, it's likely it's blocked.
Apple Maps does have the ability to make the same reports, but its super buried so I doubt many people even know its possible, let alone where to go to do it.
tbf google maps are absolutely shit for car navigation.
European here. Been using Apple Maps exclusively for the best part of a decade now.
I changed to it for car navigation. It's a less cluttered interface and integrates better with voice control than Google maps. I still use Google to find out what's around me in a city, which is probably where the money is.
I'm from Europe and I use it 99% of the time. I find the UI in satnav mode much better (cleaner and readable) than the one Google Maps has. The only time I use Google Maps is when I really want to find something that's not in Apple Maps or when I want to read reviews without fumbling with the web browser.
The reason is that Google are highly commercialized first on thier maps, while Apple focused on major markets. E.g. I can remember the times like 2017, when Apple maps was as rocky as possible, but they were working fine in Shenzhen with matching chines to transcriptions, while Google maps sucked at scale there.
I've used it quite a lot in Europe - specifically for walking directions in cities. I prefer Apple Maps for walking directions, especially paired with the watch - the data is good and the UX with the watch is excellent.
It’s quite good in both Spain and UK. Better at public transport than Google Maps.
I believe Apple Maps uses Open Street Map data for the mapping, which it augments with its own data collection. So it shouldn’t be worse than other vendors, like TomTom, who use the same dataset. Google has its own map data that’s probably better than OSM, but I think it probably has the same bias of USA + large international metros focus as Apple.
Google Maps is definitely still a little better but I find the delta is nowhere near as wide as it used to be. The main problem with Apple Maps I find today is that their data on business listings and locations tends to be a little older than Google’s, sometimes even a year or more out of date. So if a business or meeting place you’re trying to get to has moved recently you can wind up in the wrong spot.
Europe here. We have a friend who always gets lost and for that we call him "Apple Maps".
I want to use Apple Maps instead of Google's apps, I'm in Canada.
Apple have been promising bicycle support in Canada since iOS 14. Bike paths and itineraries still aren't there.
It's the same with public transit, which is unsynchronized or unavailable depending on the city.
Apple Maps will show business informations and schedules, but only pull information from Yelp, which no one here uses. The app will guide you to businesses that have closed or moved out, and will show you photos and menus that date 5+ years.
It's not an issue of software quality unfortunately, but one of negligence on the service side.
Here in the UK, Apple maps is the only app I use. I dont even use the inbuilt car gps.
Here in the north east of Scotland, I have to switch back and forth between Google Maps and Apple Maps. Apple Maps provides vastly superior residential navigation (it understands that many houses only have names, not numbers, and knows what those names are), but commercial information (where to find a café, are they open, etc.) is often incomplete or outright missing. It seems like Apple have coughed up for POI licensing from OS Maps or similar, but they're limited to whatever business information they can get from Yelp.
yeah, Apple maps isnt so good for tourist info, at least once you leave the big cities. I just use the web version of google maps if Im out travelling somewhere remote
My wife used Apple Maps for a while here in the UK and driving in Europe. The results varied between amusing and traumatic. No issues ever with Google Maps since she swapped (but I know from experience it's not perfect). Apple maps would send her over tertiary roads through mountain passes that were snowed out, instead of salted/gritted primary roads, would show major highway junctions wildly (dangerously) inaccurately and showed areas that had lots of properly mettled roads as open countryside with no thoroughfares at all.
In Germany it's pretty decent, the only thing I still open Google Maps for is to occasionally check reviews or store opening hours.
I can’t reply to sibling comment, but the Apple Maps native integration in the Apple ecosystem is far far ahead of Google’s. Their CarPlay, Watch, notifications, island etc integration shows how all apps should feel, but not even Google can be bothered to have the integration right.
to be frank, I have a feeling that Google has more / better data.
Well, back in the days, it took Apple 3 years to fix umlauts in PDF documents with VoiceOver. It is pretty much normal that you're being treated as a second-class user if you are not residing in the US. It is a form of digital colonialism. Learn english, move to the US, or suffer the death of a thausand cuts.
Ireland, on Apple Maps for the past decade more or less. Works fine. Once it led me to the wrong place because someone “contributed” that information to the map.
I use Apple Maps all the time if I can, it's just better at being a navigator, but the search UX sucks giant salty balls
in Japan apple maps is commonly used.
Do you have a source that supports this claim?
I haven’t come across anyone using Apple Maps while living in Japan, most seem to use Yahoo! Maps or Google Maps.
The source was my experience living with Japanese friends in Japan for around a month. This was, however, quite a few years ago. I believe that the complexity of the Japanese street naming system may have had something to do with it.
Bold claim based on one month experience. May be living for 10 years and continuing to living here gives different impression.
https://www.reddit.com/r/JapanTravel/comments/xbejr2/apple_m...
It's sub par to google maps. As much as I would like to use it in Japan, but it is crappier than Google.
Noone in my circle with iphone uses it. Most of people are using Yahoo maps, which is way better than google and apple maps combined.
Outside of the US Japan is the most saturated Apple's market
I use it all the time, because its driving directions interface is so much better than Google, it's not even funny. But it is overall worse than Google Maps.
And they are planning to make it even worse with ads, so.
Anecdotal evidence, but I do use Apple Maps in Poland and they work just fine for me, I guess the mileage may vary.
So does my father - but then again, it is important to remember the context. It's not going to be an issue if you only drive in big cities or on main roads. The only time I really need to use GPS to navigate is going out into the complete boonies, and Waze does that expertly. Apple Maps, meanwhile, helps me remember my Mercedes' stock navigation, which is forever locked in 2011 and runs in 256 colors. :-)
I kind of have the opposite experience, and really only use maps to find streets within the city limits. The country is easy to navigate with the road signs you see along the way, and it's more enjoyable to navigate that way than following a nagging app.
We might be kind of lucky in New Zealand with the yellow AA signposts at every intersection in the country telling you the nearest towns/communities and their distances in every direction.
They do work for me either, but I have learned to double check the locations of POIs with Google Maps to make sure I’ll arrive at the correct place.
I'm using almost exclusively Apple Maps in Poland and never had any issue (that I remember). Your mileage may vary and so on.
I made the mistake of trusting Google Maps with driving directions in Sicily, and it always sent me down tiny single lane (but two way) roads because they were "better" by the algorithm. That taught me to trust my gut and follow the highways/main roads rather than use any shortcuts that an algorithm can conjure up. (I'm sure this has relevance in the age of LLMs).
Personally I doubt they test the hardware outside an air conditioned and dust less office in California.
Well, even generally much better Google maps sometimes tries to force me through unpaved field roads with unavoidable damage to normal cars. Or create absolutely ridiculous 'shortcuts' that save 5 metres but I should exit busy main road to join it again 100m later, spending few minutes trying to join back. Or lead me through forbidden/one way roads from wrong direction that are like that permanently since forever.
Generally they are fine, but not literally in every aspect in every place, Europe or not.
Years ago I went to WWDC, to the sessions where you could talk to specialists from their different libraries. I talked to someone high up in maps and location services, reporting an issue we were consistently seeing in geolocation at a particular spot in the world. They effectively told me they didn’t believe me and that it works fine for them.
Very regionally dependent.
Around here (Long Island, New York, USA), it’s better than Google Maps. I get to compare a lot, because I have a friend that uses GM, and constantly sends me Google Maps universal links.
I hear that it is a lot less effective in rural areas, though, and I think Google Street View is better than the Apple variant.
It's been some years now, but apple maps put me into a loop once in Branson, Missouri.
It drove me around a couple miles that went right back to the intersection where we started, and then wanted me to start the loop again.
Apple Maps only works well in North America, possibly just the US. The same way a lot of happy paths in Apple products are designed for California/Single Culture/Single Language/Single Residence.
if you want to be EU-patriotic, you can try the Czech app Mapy.com. it's based on OSM data as well and at least for hiking in Europe it's the best
These reports seem unhelpful unless you specify the date at which you had this experience, as this thread is about continuous improvement over time.
Not even a month ago, according to my IM logs it was during the last week of March 2026.
It is the case in regions where Apple gathers their own map data from scratch, instead of relying on data licensed from TomTom and others.
I’m sure it’s amazing in California or the US. So often I think how much better products would be if the people responsible would have to use them for a week outside of the happy path.
Example: Taking the airport train instead of a private driver and realizing there’s no luggage racks, staying in a regular hotel room and realizing there’s no light in front of the mirror, only behind you. So many examples like that on a daily basis.
Another huge exemple : in most big cities in Europe you have special parking lots around big public transit hubs outside of the city where you can park for free as long as you continue your journey by public transit.
In a lot of cities, that’s either the fastest or the most comfortable way to go somewhere in the city when you come from the outside.
Not any single navigation app support this (tbf, the few European ones don’t support it either)
There was a Not Just Bikes video about how Google Maps is optimised for driving where it pretty much actively hides the biggest walking routes and promotes roads for driving by making them bigger. Useful in the USA for sure but actively harmful in Europe, given that you're more likely to plan a route by which roads you can see, and unless you know what to look for you're not going to find them easily.
Yes. Unfortunately transit between public transit is always walking. No options to take a first part by bike or car, or folding bikes for intermediate hops.
The long tail of user desires is loooong. For example "I want to take transit, but please exclude transit options where I cannot take my non-folding bicycle". Or "I don't have a raincoat, suggest only bus stops with a roof, oh and by the way I don't like the uncomfortable seats on the purple line but will take it if there is no other way".
I think LLM's with access to lots of personal data and the ability to scout the web might solve all these use cases in one fell swoop, rather than trying to design a user interface with buttons, algorithms and data sources for every obscure use case.
Is it that long tail? Biking and riding are supported in most planners already. Park and ride, or kiss and ride, are well known concepts around the world. It seems like a straightforward extension of what already exists.
I mean, my example about parking to take public transit are not long tails, it's what is officially encouraged by the cities themselves.
I think you mean country/region capitals, or countries like Germany.
I can assert than this isn't a thing in most Portuguese big cities, although it would be great to have it.
In Germany it's often not IN cities, but around. Example for Frankfurt:
The's a metro ("S-Bahn") going north up to Friedberg/Hessen. Friedberg is the capital of the country. But there's no free "Park & Ride" there. Two stations towards Frankfurt you are in village called Wöllstadt. And there you have a free Park & Ride. More south some other village, no P&R. But then again in Bad Vilbel you have one.
Is however P&R + public tansport the fastest way to Frankfurt? That depends.
First, the Wöllstadt P&R isn't easily accessible from the Autobahn, or not even from the B3, which goes around Wöllstadt. And even when it went through it some years ago, it was several turn-left turn-rights through small streets.
And then the S6 only drives every 30 minutes to Frankfurt. It's supposed to change once they double the train tracks, but that will change. On top of it: metro lines don't have precedence, the quick trains like ICE have. So the S-Bahn more often than not waits until a faster train passes.
If it isn't between 7-9 in the morning, you're actually faster by car in Frankfurt than by public transport ... So the P&R is quite helpful for people living in the neighboring villages: they go by car to Wöllstadt, park there for free, commute to Frankfurt by metro. And that traffic jam free ... but not necessarily fast. And since parking in Frankfurt usually comes with a price tag, it's also a bit cheaper.
So it's nice to have this, but it's no all roses.
Well at least on NRW, I can say that there are enough P&R around here.
However compared with European countries like Portugal, this is a complete different reality.
This was my main point, because there are these "in Europe public transport is so great" remarks, yes it is, provided one is lucky to be on the right parts of Europe, as you also kind of refer to by your no all roses scenario.
I'm in the US and it is far from amazing for me.
To get to my home you take an exit off a toll road and where the exit splits continuing straight or going to the right you continue straight to a stop light where you take a left and in 1/4 mile take a right into my neighborhood. Apple Maps will tell you to go to the right instead of going straight merging on the road and continuing through 2 stop lights, taking a u-turn at a 3rd light and then backtracking to take the right into my neighborhood. Google Maps gives the correct directions.
In the closest major city Apple Maps will give directions instructing you to perform u-turns on streets where u-turns are legal but practically impossible. Google Maps will instead correctly direct you so such risky u-turns are not needed and you actually arrive quicker.
That is just two examples. I have many more I could provide.
My favorite Apple example of this is that when the Apple Watch notices that you're walking/running/biking and asks if you want to start a workout, for some reason you cannot accept it with the double-tap-your-fingers gesture. Which is fine if it's warm outside...but when it's winter in Minnesota, if I want to activate it I have to take one of my gloves off, pull up my sleeves, and put the gloves back on, while bitching about how nobody designing the watch lives in a cold climate. (Especially when I'm on a bike. Riding no-hands in the snow is not a smart idea.)
Staying in a holiday rental and there are no hooks on the walls!
I’ve started buying cheap self-adhesive hooks on AliExpress and placing them myself. Not sure if they last long but hopefully owners get the message.
> staying in a regular hotel room and realizing there’s no light in front of the mirror, only behind you.
I'll bite, what does this have to do with Apple Maps?
Another example: When taking HOV and the map asks you if you want HOV enabled, there are no options I can force the navigation to take me to the nearest HOV lane.
If it happens to be there, it will say to use it, but I can't say "Route me to the nearest HOV entrance" because I prefer it even if it's 1 minute slower.
“When we started out with maps, it was an ambitious undertaking. It was bumpy…”
And I know many engineers within Apple that had been testing Maps before it shipped and they were filing bugs about it. It shipped anyway.
> It shipped anyway.
“Real artists ship”
No product worth using is bug free.
No product is bug free. Are all products worth using?
"No product worth using is bug free" is not the same statement as "all bug free products are worth using". Come on man, this is basic logic.
You’re right. But your statement was that no product worth using is bug free. I said that no software exists that is without bugs. Your statement uses the presence of bugs to indicate a product is worth using. But since all software has bugs, that applies to every product ever made. It doesn’t have any discriminating power. So it’s not fallacious on its face but it’s not useful either, and that’s what I was trying to point out.
> Your statement uses the presence of bugs to indicate a product is worth using.
This is not correct; "If a product is worth using, then it has bugs." (P→Q) does not imply its converse "If a product has bugs, then it is worth using." (Q→P). Buginess is presented as a necessary condition of being worth using, not a sufficient one.
It does, however, imply "If a product has no bugs, then it is not worth using.".
If a product has no bugs, it is not sufficiently ambitious to be worth using!
To be clear, my statement is that "No product worth using is bug free" (which is what dpark said) does not mean the same as "all bug free products are worth using" (which is what your response to dpark implied).
That “pointing out” is, itself, “not useful either.”
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> It doesn’t have any discriminating power.
That was exactly my point. The presence of bugs in a product (in this case Apple Maps) does not mean it should not ship. “No open bugs” cannot be the criteria for whether a product is ready to ship.
> “No open bugs” cannot be the criteria for whether a product is ready to ship.
I think you mean, should not.
I mean the problem was the Google contract, yeah?
>And Apple Maps today is absolutely amazing.
That has not been my experience, I've got a Honda CB125F which uses Apple Maps for their on screen navigation.
I live in Lisbon and I wanted to Almada which is directly South from Lisbon. For reasons beyond me, Apple Maps kept telling me to go North and North and North, I tried restarting the navigation multiple times, but in the end I had to switch to Google Maps which did mean that I didn't have on screen navigation, only the audio ones, but at least it immediately told me to go South.
In my eyes, this is a critical failure.
Apple Maps is pretty fantastic
It’s gotten a lot better, but I still find the address database better in Google Maps, which helps when you have only a fragment of an address. I also find that the Apple Maps database has a lot of roads that read the same. For instance, in Texas where I live, we have a lot of “Ranch Roads” that are numbered. Think of them like state highways in other state (which we also have; don’t ask). For whatever reason, most of the Ranch Roads are spoken by Maps as “Ranch Road,” not with the number. So, if you have a spot where multiple Ranch Roads intersect, Maps will just say “turn left on Ranch Road” instead of “turn left on Ranch Road 123.” It’s tremendous annoying. In another state, imagine it saying “turn left on Interstate,” without a number. Anyway, Google Maps does better.
Google is not without its errors.
I used to work to resolve addressing disputes and google just doesn't expose (maybe even store) the relevant information for a lot of parcels of land.
It’s all available freely from the government in simple formats but for Joe Public they don’t know that much less how to access it and it’s the case that technicians on the ground don’t always have it in their SOP either. Google has a level of market dominance that means their errors can be, for a small individual or over an aggregation of small individuals, costly.
Addresses are hard. OSM Nominatim struggles with them all the time. Probably the biggest hurdle to OSM adoption, imo
Yep, they all have flaws. I just fine that when I want to drive somewhere, Google does better for me than Apple, though certainly Apple has improved a lot recently.
actually a sign of our times that we can gripe about this. i remember how annoying it was to rent a car on a business trip without anything other than a road atlas. you had to dedicate a fair bit of cognitive load you really didnt want to use.
Indeed. I remember flying to Atlanta and arriving at midnight. I rented a car and had to try to find my hotel in the dark with one of those one-page maps the rental car company had. So, yea, we’ve come a long way for the better.
In the 80s I rented a car from the Minneapolis airport. Drove to my hotel visually navigating with respect to the tall buildings of downtown. Eventually realizing I was in St Paul.
I was at a small conference north of San Diego and thought I could find my way back to the airport for an early flight. I did but not before making a U-turn at the Mexican border. My excuse is the darkness (and of course no gps at the time).
Google Maps often picks the non-idiomatic thing. It'll say the road name when no sign uses that, and it's a US highway that you have been following for a while. Or it will tell you the state highway number when it is a major named artery, and nobody knows that it is a state highway at that point or uses the highway number. This makes it hard to know if it is carrying you along on the same route or if it has come up with one of its weird shortcuts to save 1 minute.
It has absolutely no clue about roundabouts. On a journey in England or France on a road that has a roundabout every mile it will constantly spam you with "take the second exit onto wailing street" every minute, when a human would say "go straight at the next 20 roundabouts staying on the A38".
I once printed out a directions from an online map that contained "pass straight over the next fourteen roundabouts" (I think it was on the way into Reading). Lose count, and you are stuffed. I much prefer a turn-by-turn approach.
You're not wrong that it does that, but that's kinda what I'd expect. Maybe because I'm used to it, but if there's a potential turn it'll say "keep right" or "keep left". So it makes sense to me that it says "second exit".
"Straight" can be ambiguous, second exit isn't. Maybe it's because I'm terrible with directions and hate driving, but I like the constant feedback that I'm going the right way.
Here in Australia Apple Maps names everywhere by local council, which isn’t used at all, we use localities. I have reported this as a bug repeatedly but they just keep at it.
It just means nothing here except who you pay to collect the bins.
Salt Lake City roads are amusing
"Turn right on East one hundred and twenty three thousand South"
Salt Lake City is a perfect grid, better than Manhattan. An address in SLC tells you EXACTLY where it is. It was GPS before GPS.
Yep, that’s sometimes true as well.
I hate how Google scrapes business addresses so you get like "There's a grocery store X here" but actually that's just their corporate office building. I see that all the time. Machines just don't know.
On macOS there are so many basic things you’d want to do - share itineraries, annotate places, keep lists of things, but there’s not even a document concept. With the exception of guides, anything you do is ephemeral. It’s excellent at planning a route, but doing anything with that route, including getting back to it later is useless.
All true, but you have to measure it against how enshitified Google Maps has become.
I primarily use Apple maps and bounce back to google sometimes because I think the browser experience is so much better and it is faster to just type my terms right into ironically safari. Every time I do I think it is still simpler and snappier. Especially true if I have recently tried to use the MacOS maps app… that never behaves how I would imagine it should if I go beyond a simple location search. There are things about the ios app that make me crazy too. No qualms about the maps themselves these days.
Just a week ago I could still create a Google Docs "map" document, add spots, share it with friends who could collaborate from any (incl. non-Apple) device... It's just a pain to do this with Apple Maps compared to how easy and straightforward it is with Google Maps. You can also still import desktop Google Earth bookmark files.
I don't agree with that assertion. Just because google maps has become one thing, doesn't excuse Apple maps flaws. They can exist on their merits.
The app on macOS is terrible, like all Catalyst/SwiftUI ports. Fisher-Price software.
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Maybe elsewhere it is. Here, it's terrible.
In general, for all it benefits from globalization, Apple disappoints on global markets.
In the US. In many other countries it's borderline useless.
It’s okay. It’s still subpar and barely keeping pace with Gmaps
I haven't used google maps in years.
90% of my usage of it is because it actually displays the map on my Watch, whereas Google Maps & Citymapper only show directions.
If it weren't for that, I'd use Citymapper for practically everything.
And they just added ads.
it was far inferior to its competitor when it was released
That was, what, twelve years ago? Hardly seems relevant.
it's relevant in the context of this conversation:
> Ternus recently gave an interview where he said this about the initial flop of Apple Maps:
While it is great now, it did flop because it was terrible.
Bah, missed that part initially. Thanks.
Oh I remember this quote. I thought it was quite a good one because he’s right. At least in the US, apple maps is better than google maps for most purposes.
Apple Maps is definitely not amazing in India. All it's good for is "Find My." Only Google is accurate and has good traffic data.
Apple software is unusable in india, no one uses it coz it has terrible data and thus the data never gets changed coz no one uses it. i have gotten wrong timings for gyms, wrong routes, it won't detect my home address from my contacts etc etc always find it funny when americans say "it's good now", no brother they fixed all the glitches in states it's still launch apple maps trash in india
That's worrying, because Apple Mpas is still a borderline useless hot mess.
What is he smoking?!? Apple Maps was fine a few years ago, but these days it routes me to the wrong place about as often as organic maps, and siri is completely broken. It renders a blue dot showing where I am, and responds “I do not know where you are”.
Also, the UI for it keeps getting more cluttered, and they announced that in-map ads are coming Q2-3 2026.
Hardware people, in my very direct experience, are terrible at software. But we can hope.
Software people, in my very direct experience, are terrible at hardware... While in jest, I do think most software engineer's understanding of hardware abstractions is pretty poor and does disservice to the hardware they run on.
I know between Moore's Law and Gate's Law which one I would prefer to be the industry standard... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andy_and_Bill%27s_law
As a software dev that started at a hardware focused company... I don't think it need be in jest, nor need be offensive? Hardware and software are different disciplines, even when they do overlap in embedded. It just seems to me - having been at a hardware company that failed to pivot to software, and went out of business (while a new competitor, software first, became Zoom), that the mindset is too different. Hardware requires far more planning; software far faster iteration. In software too much planning is a death sentence. In hardware insufficient planning is a death sentence. I think a single person absolutely could do both well but in my relatively basic estimation, I don't see it being a common trait. Hardware is cool and impressive, but I could never do it. And in my experience, many of the hardware folks I know don't seem to like how software development works either.
I don't think it means anything for this particular move; good leaders know what they know and what they don't know; they know how to motivate and select the right people, they know what to delegate and what to control. Having a track record of success of any kind is IMHO always the best start. I'm excited to see what kind of changes the transition from an operations person to a more technical leader may bring. Especially given how awesome Apple's hardware has consistently been.
Generally speaking, I think both are true. Most people seem to have an affinity for either hardware or software, but rarely for both. Those who do are extremely unique. I don't mean that as an insult to anyone, just as an observatin having worked in both (and personally am much better at software than hardware, even though I enjoy both).
And then there is IC versus leadership. They're opposites. Lead times and supply chains are a headache in hardware, but tangible deadlines are great for keeping the project grounded. In software you have to invent your own discipline to keep the team on pace and bend over backwards to explain to physical-minded stakeholders why you can't build something with no lead times overnight.
My experience studying 'Computing and Electronics' - a combined degree - was that we could get practically any extensions or leniency we wanted by blaming the other specialism. To each the other was mistrusted and magic.
Hardware and software have VERY different deployment cost functions and lifecycles. Having "affinity" for one requires a mindset not really suitable for the other and being able to juggle mindsets, especially short vs long term focus is rare in itself.
I agree - at university there were software people and hardware people and a small number who studied mechatronics (hardware and software). But even the mechatronic people were really hardware people who just tolerated software.
I find both interesting but have been working in software for over a decade now.
Honestly, the thing that pushed me into software dev was the fact that hardware tools were absolutely garbage. Verilog felt like a joke of a language designed to torment rather than help the user.
Verilog is not the best and that’s not even the worst part - tools like ISE/Vivado and Quartus are even worse!
It’s really amazing that at least there are some fully open flows for FPGAs these days, unfortunately they don’t support system Verilog. (I think this is still the case?)
Yeah at university we had to do some hardware stuff in our software course. I know there were better debug tools available as some students purchased them but playing with microprocessors was no fun.
I am deeply aware of software people being crap at hardware having worked in embedded for much of my career.
I've worked for 40+ years with a hardware guy and he's great at software, for one reason: attention to detail. In hardware, you have to test, test and test. There's no "fixed it later with a patch" (for the most part).
I don't have a lot of samples, just one. So, YMMV.
Bodge wires in shipped products beg to differ!
Well, and aspect of hardware dev that lacks in software dev is testing. A mistake in hardware is much harder to correct once it leaves the factory vs a mistake in software. A large portion of hardware budget is ultimately spent on QA.
I have to think some of that attitude would be good for apple's software division.
It's not as if ternus will be writing code directly, he's managing managers. Hopefully that means he'll demand and budget more for QA.
It's more the hope that he can bring the culture embedded in the hardware division over to software, which hopefully results in better software.
What they need is a culture of UX focus, and I don’t think it’s present in the hardware team either.
They’ve coasted too long on consistent visual identity, and even that’s been slipping. Time to focus on actual user needs.
The whole idea of (good times) Apple was hardware and software made coherently by the same people though.
“People who are really serious about software should make their own hardware" —Alan Kay
In many cases, yes, but it really depends a lot on the person. I have a computer hardware degree but have led both software and UX teams. If you have a hardware background, you’re going to have to acquire a software background before you can lead software teams. What you can’t do is lead a software team like a hardware team (or vice versa).
Ternus is foremost a manager though. Maybe he is also a hardware guy and that's the secret behind the success he had with Apple's hardware team, but I hope it's transferable to getting the most out of the software teams too.
This is actually one thing I think will be great as AI coding agents get better. Companies whose main expertise is hardware might start producing better software.
There are so many little bugs in consumer-facing apps that hit the ‘sweet’ spot of being incredible little annoyances that just aren’t worth putting an engineer on for a week to fix, but which are totally worth having an engineer throw an agent onto them.
How? Coding agents are trained on every copy of every tutorial that skips error checking and implements the least resistance path.
I find that the code AI likes to write actually checks for “errors” too often when often you wouldn’t even want to do that. You don’t need to check every dictionary access and come up with a default value for example
I mean I would hope at least one person actually reviews the code before it goes out, but yeah we all know what hope does :)
This is actually one thing I think will be great as AI coding agents get better. Companies whose main expertise is code reviewing might start producing better software.
Yeah, like fixing a annoyance while introducing one or two SEV-1 for sure is going to be great progress.
I really hope they fire whoever is in charge of Liquid Glass. Whoever is leading Apple software has run out of ideas. Of all the countless things they could be doing in software, we got the useless Liquid Glass refactor.
I hated liquid glass at first, but now i've come to appreciate it. It grows on you
i was getting annoyed at the state of shadcn/daisyui/the other six trillion ui patterns that have spawned since the abomination known as materialui and i actually realized liquid glass is the only meaningful step away from that we've seen in quite a long time.
it's still not quite my tempo, looks downright silly in many places, but it has grown on me just a smidge, and i think i'd receive it a little better if it wasn't fundamentally more intensive to render. i think that's a line i can't respect and it feels like a step backwards.
i don't want to wax nostalgic about windows 98 era ui's or the design patterns i see with a lot of qt apps either, like they are imo kind of ugly to me too. but i appreciated the consistency back in the 98 era, and i think a ui that restored 3d beveled looking components, were somewhat expressive but consistent is what i want.
but the world is different now. things like flutter that give people a canvas and let them ground up their entire design language undoubtedly mean consistency can only exist within an entity's control, there likely will never be a unified agreed-upon set of ui standards that span industries and personal computing and different stacks anymore. kinda amusing that improved tooling and frameworks has just resulted in a wild west of user interface design.
So does fungus. I'd prefer to avoid both.
I dunno, I think fungus is pretty great. Cheese, salumi, beer, soy sauce, miso, kimchi, chocolate. Sounds like a boring life:)
Indeed those are pretty great, but none of those grow _on_ you.
No, but there is the mycobiome.
If you have kimchi fermenting on your body, please see a doctor.
Regardless of your opinion of its present iteration, the whole push is for their AR/VR layered UI/UX shift - not just another random redesign they threw at the wall.
Yes, the idea seems to be to force app developers to support transparency so that any future iGlasses device has a good supply of apps from day one (contrary to what happened with Vision Pro).
Apple used to insist that different types of devices require different UI principles. This seems all the more true for a transparent device that you wear on your face while moving around trying not to bump into physical objects.
But we'll see. Perhaps the right level of transparency is situational. If you sit down with iGlasses using them as a screen you might want to reduce transparency while increasing it when you're moving around outdoors. Adjusting transparency could become as routine as adjusting audio volume.
VR/AR is a gimmick. Gimmicks have no place on a work tool (macOS). No one is gonna use VR/AR with a laptop. Liquid Glass is Apples Metro UI.
I'm still on 18.x thats insecure by now and switching to Asahi as soon as something breaks.
> VR/AR is a gimmick. Gimmicks have no place on a work tool (macOS). No one is gonna use VR/AR with a laptop. Liquid Glass is Apples Metro UI.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9224
I’ve come back to this thread a few times,
and I’ve gotta say it: this is off-topic.
Post a link to a recent comment of someone using glasses as a display. That’s on topic.
AR will be extremely useful for real world jobs where people deal with physical reality. As opposed to office jobs, where people deal with computers and communication.
Having blueprints and 3D models and info overlayed onto what you see in the real world can be very useful for farming, construction, infrastructure, and much more. Not to mention military application.
That guy left to join Meta I believe.
Thereby raising the average talent level of both companies. A truly Pareto optimal trade.
That explains the recent useless UI update on Quest OS, I guess
My only hope, however unlikely, is that Apple will recognise that power users, engineers and gamers would really really appreciate running Linux on Macs and they write some drivers for it.
There are literally no PC laptops with the quality or hardware offered by even the cheapest MacBook - the software, while fine for general consumers, creators, and some developer workloads, tragically holds back its potential something fierce.
I doubt we'll see it, but one thing I'd really like is for them to release cleaner drivers or specs for the hardware in Intel Macs. Now that they're committed to removing Intel support from the OS, it would be really nice not to consign all of that functional, high-performing hardware to the bin.
At the moment, I have a 2018 Mac Mini with a 12-core i7 and 64GB of RAM that is more limited in OS choice and hardware support than the 2012 Mac Mini sitting next to it, because the inner workings of the T2 chipset in particular and various other components have to be reverse-engineered bit by bit.
Well, that certainly would be one way to wipe billions from their share price overnight.
The only way Linux on Mac will become a reality is if it's legislated.
Why would Apple writing some Linux drivers wipe billions from its share price? You can already install Linux on a Mac if you really want to. Back in the day, you used to be able to install Windows on an (Intel) Mac, and that didn’t seem to have any such effect.
You still can right now.
Do Apple provide the necessary technical details for others to write it? I think wasn't that the complain with Asahi effort?
No, but I think it’s unlikely that Apple actually has this information in a format that it could easily publicly release. They aren’t going to make any special effort to make Linux on Mac easier, but they also aren’t actively blocking it.
They decided to leave the bootloader unlocked. I guess, in today's anti-consumer tech landscape, that's nice of them.
It's more complicated than that. The bootloader can maintain the chain of trust for macOS while allowing unsecured OSes next to it.
Well, I was more talking about the fact that you can still install Windows 11 on an Intel Mac right now; the drivers are still there for those few Intel macs still supported.
As for Windows on ARM, I'd bet that if Microsoft had managed to figure out their own product, Apple might have been tempted to support it. I mean why go through all the trouble of developing the most advanced firmware on the planet to support a fully secure macOS next to an unsecured OS if you do nothing with it?
> As for Windows on ARM, I'd bet that if Microsoft had managed to figure out their own product, Apple might have been tempted to support it.
That was totally up to Microsoft [1].
[1]: "Craig Federighi: Native Windows on M1 Macs is 'Really up to Microsoft'" — https://www.macrumors.com/2020/11/20/craig-federighi-on-wind...
Why would it wipe billions from their share price? Both Linux and Windows were available on Mac hardware prior to Apple Silicon.
If I play devil's advocate, the only reason I could think of is that supporting Linux signals to investors that Apple is offering a key to bypass their API moat, perhaps sacrificing a longer term vision of vendor lock-in.
By contrast, I can imagine investors would get upset if the iPhone had an unlocked bootloader and allowed Android to be installed - but that's because the App Store is a significant revenue stream for Apple. I don't think there is a parallel on MacOS that investors could point to as being upsetting.
If anything, optional support for Linux would lift the market cap for Mac hardware as it would close the only pull that other laptop vendors previously enjoyed.
In reality though, just like is historically true, 99% of people would continue to use MacOS. Only SWEs, enthusiasts, gamers and some number of Windows refugees would pick Linux.
Though I am 100% behind legislating Linux support - EU are you listening?
Apple went out of its way to make Linux on Mac a reality. They did a lot to allow third-party OSes when Apple Silicon came out, it's up to the Linux community to do the rest.
There were a couple of people (the Asahi team) that made this work for M1, but as I understand it, the effort has stalled since. This just goes to show how few people truly care.
Apple helped by not locking the bootloader. I'd don't know if I'd call that going out of their way to make Linux a reality.
If they wanted to go out of their way, they could spend a weekend writing Linux drivers - Apple have written Windows drivers in the past, so it's not unprecedented.
I believe the real hurdle is that Linux doesn't do well with modular (closed source) drivers. Unlike Windows, drivers can't practically be added to a kernel, they must be compiled into it.
Apple would not want to make their drivers open source or so they would want to distribute their drivers as binary blobs.
That would necessitate either maintaining an Apple-fork of the Linux kernel with their drivers hidden within it, or contributing shims to upstream Linux + binary blob drivers.
If they wanted to help, the bare minimum would be to publish documentation on their hardware so drivers could be written without reverse engineering from schematics and microscope photos.
> This just goes to show how few people truly care.
Most people just want to sit down and eat a nice meal. They don't want to go through all the difficult back breaking work of farming, animal husbandry or fishing/hunting to eat.
That is how I look at people writing OS drivers and core components. It's boring back breaking work no one wants to think about. People pine for it, even romanticize about it. But the fact is that it's dirty annoying work and I have never heard anyone thanking the farmer for the meal they just ate. Yet we still have farmers. Few, yet they exist.
This is not true. Most of the efforts as of late have been code refactoring since there was a mad rush to show "it works!!"
Just because a few people stepped away from the project doesn't mean there are plenty of other developers working hard every day on this.
https://asahilinux.org/blog/
Why would it? Shareholders of the major stocks are generally vibes-based, and I'm sure that if Apple undertook that, they would find a way to build hype around it.
It would literally sell more Mac devices I'm not sure what the argument is that OP is making
> It would literally sell more Mac devices
The Mac has never been more popular in its 40 year history than it is now. The recently released MacBook Neo broke all previous Mac sales records. Needing to sell more Macs isn't an issue these days.
i can think of absolutely zero publicly traded company boards of this size that would opt for "we're already selling enough devices, we know there's more demand we can't meet, let's not scale up we're really happy with these numbers"
Due to the RAM shortages, Apple isn't able to meet demand as it is.
Apple's Mac revenue last fiscal year was $33.7 billion. I suspect the number of Linux users that might buy a Mac if it could run Linux natively is probably in rounding error territory.
Apple has been around for 50 years and has a market-cap of around $4 trillion. All without supporting Linux. I think they're okay with that.
> Linux on Mac will become a reality
Linux on Mac is absolutely a reality [1], and Apple specifically supported it by deliberately leaving a documented/supported mechanism for another OS kernel to be loaded.
[1] https://asahilinux.org/about/
I don't want to take away from the hard work put in by the Asahi project because it is amazing.
Linux on Apple Silicon is not a reality on my M5 Pro. I run Asahi on my M1 Pro, but I cannot use my USB-C dock with it and, while amazing, cannot practically use the GPU for gaming or local LLMs.
This limits my ability to practically use it for work and play.
Yes absolutely Linux on Mac is not good enough. However Apple left the door open and it's just that the community is crawling too slowly.
it would likely do the opposite as linux users gravitate to the best hardware for their preferred OS => more hardware sales for Apple
The value of the walled garden FAR exceeds a single digit hardware sales bump.
the bulk of their sales is, in fact, hardware sales. there is a strong case to be made that such developments wouldn't land people in squarely linux-as-the-only-OS-on-the-device territory either, but rather dual boot ie those users also participate in the walled garden on the mac os side. we've seen this before in the intel mac era.
What do mean by the Mac walled garden?
Using the App Store is optional on the Mac.
Why didn’t Apples stock tank when they started offering Windows drivers, that they’ll stop offering only this fall ?
2006 was a different time, and Apple was a different company. Now, having control is more valuable. See: iOS App Store.
> Apple will recognise that power users, engineers
They will not. Recognizing the value of power users and engineers looks deeply un-Apple to me.
I also hope they recognize power users it’s very limited customization they offer unlike Linux and windows . The only thing holding them back is their software . If they could try make games compatible or introduce more customization options and more options other than Xcode for swift it would be the most amazing OS
As a power user, ThinkPad T (maybe P also) series is better for me (and it's not that close). I run Linux on it.
ha, i use both. i don't even need to write any platitudes on if linux came to mac, utm or parallels has linux going at near native speed actually happier than it runs on my thinkpad t. i get to enjoy all worlds on my mac and its probably the best multi-target development environment ive ever had, and the hardware is still leagues above literally anything else on the market. dont get me wrong i want more options, im still just waiting for options that deserve to be in this convo. i have zero allegiances to who made it, whoever comes forward with the best hardware gets my money. and my orgs money since i pick the teams hardware.
I think it's due not being interested to things like build quality, screen, track pad, etc.
I also have a Thinkpad, but an X1. I'd trade it and my first-born child to get to run Linux on a modern MacBook.
No offense to Lenovo, it's a great laptop. But Apples build quality is on another level, plus if I want to run local LLMs, AFAIK there is no better option.
There's no way I'm going back to macOS though, that shit was bad 5 years ago when I switched and it sounds like it's gotten way worse.
Same here. I've had two generations of X1, my latest one (laptop, not child) is almost 5 years old and I honestly don't know which hardware to pick next in order to run Linux.
At work I have an M4Max 128G, and it's hard to beat that amount of compute, with that build quality.
It's not what everyone wants but Apple supports Linux containers [1]. I've used it and it works well.
[1]: https://opensource.apple.com/projects/container/
When I bought a Macbook M1 years ago, then was forced to switch back to a PC and wanted to have something similar in quality - I realized there's NOTHING that compares at ANY price point, let alone $1000.
I've got the smallest version of the m1 macbook air when they came out. It's still my daily driver when I'm not on my corporate T14 gen 6 I7 with 32gb of ram, and while it no longer outperforms my corporate computer it keeps up well enough while being cold to the touch and noiseless. It's also significantly lighter and has better battery life despite being old, though corporate does kill a lot of that on the pc.
Not being able to feel that it's turned on is basically the primary feature of a laptop for me. I've wanted to switch my personal device to linux for a while, but there just... isn't... one. I know I could run linux on the macbook, but the point here is that there is nothing which compares, not even at higher prices.
I switched from M1 MBP to Asus Zenbook S16 with Ryzen HX370. A bit better performance, better screen, design, comparable battery, ok keyboard... I switched mostly because I was missing my previous Linux setup. But that was only possible several years afterwards, and if you try to compare it to the M5 Pro...
I'm hoping that they'll finally ditch the sleazy anti-consumer tactics, and just focus on providing real value through real quality. They're definitely in a position where they can do so.
Right to repair with aftermarket parts and app installs from any source without Apple's permission. Then I'll consider using an iPhone.
What technological advance is there for high quality complex software?
The advances that made Apple Silicon possible were, fundamentally, TSMC and ARM. These were the material conditions that had to exist in order for a tech company to capitalize on a new generation of vertically integrated chip design. Now what's the conditions for next generation Mac OS? What research advances or software engineering paradigms that are mature enough for adoption? The state of Apple software isn't just due to mismanagement, it is, but the success of the hardware entails technology nodes as a confounding factor.
AI?
I also feel burned by that, but to be fair, is there any software in the world that's not getting worse and worse?
I think lots of backend stuff is getting better over time, but I fail to think of a single thing facing a regular consumer.
Typst
I don' really understand where people's enthusiasm for the hardware comes from (aside from the chips). They have corrected many of the functional compromises of the Ive era, but it seems otherwise unambitous. The recent Pro iPhones have a certain unflattering chunkiness. MacBooks have also grown to an uncomfortable weight and lost some of the elegance of prior design. They also suffer from an unnecessarily huge notch. On top of that there are a number of products whose usability concerns never got addressed. AirPods Max and Vision Pro are too heavy to wear for a long time and the ergonomic travesty of using and ridiculousness of charging the Magic Mouse remain unaddressed. Apple Watches got a tenth of the standby time of Garmin and other sport watches.
It's not that the hardware is horrible, but I think if it weren't for the ecosystem and chips most Apple products would seem quite unremarkable.
This. I just want Freeform usable on iPadOS again.
Since 26 upgrade it is unusable with 100+ notes. It looks like they merged iOS variant with Macos one. Constant freezes, random unsaves, device gets boiling hot. No fix with factory reset. I love the HW but SW needs more love.
Short-term, I'm just hoping this means the AirPods Max (and Vision Pro too, I guess) get a redesign that ditches all the uncomfortably heavy metal shells.
Granted I have a big ol' head, but I like the metal frame in all its heft - they feel ultra durable and I don't worry about throwing them in a bag.
They were touting ultralight ultra light thin metals for a while there, but never really followed up past the SIM ejection tools.
The main reason I haven’t purchased a Vision Pro is they have all sorts of glass on the front. I live alone and don’t need to share my eyes with an empty room, and even I did I would rather have a screen I could control to make a funny mask with. That screen is a step too far with not giving users control.
The Apple Vision Pro hardware is remarkable.
I tend to disagree to a point: their laptops have great internals but are terrible from a usage perspective — I like to imagine their system board in a Thinkpad X1 Carbon chassis with native Linux!
But HW is at least improving (eg. they added anti-reflective screen option), and SW is very much not.
They are leaps and bounds above any other laptop on the market. Who wants a plastic chasis and nub in 2026 over a modern Macbook Air.
They are leaps and bounds ahead for people who want their specific formula or don't really care about computers.
Apple has always been a "our way or the highway" brand, we can at least keep in mind that 3 laptop formulas only differenciated by size and thickness won't cut it for everyone on the planet.
A sports motorcycle from 2026 is made for people who don't really care about motorcycles. The engine is super tight, performant, doesn't leak oil, doesn't give you any problems, doesn't need tuning or maintenance outside of regular check-ups. You get on it and go. And it's much safer because of automatic safety systems.
Sports motorcycles used to be for people who care about motorcycles. Breakdowns, unsafe, finicky, tuning the carburetor if you went between mountains and sea level. You didn't just get on it and go. You had to know about motorcycles if you were an owner. And each individual model had their individual quirks.
Which option is better?
> You get on it and go.
While I see your point, that's not the reality of mac laptops to my eyes.
The stupidest example: I just want to play Steam games. Will they work on my mac? who knows, probably not.
Other basic stuff: can I 2FA without owning any other Apple device ? What happens if I owned an iPhone but switched to android ? etc.
"it just works" stopped being true for a pretty long time now IMHO.
A sports bike doesn't work for every task nor is it ideal for every task neither. A diesel truck has more horse power and is more customizable, if that's what you need.
Thinkpads are mostly made out of magnesium alloy. And yes, I prefer Thinkpads over modern Macbook Airs. They let me run whatever OS I want.
Have you handled and ideally used at least an Thinkpad X1 Carbon from Lenovo?
They're way behind in the keyboard and touchpad area. Also the I/O ports.
> their laptops have great internals but are terrible from a usage perspective — I like to imagine their system board in a Thinkpad X1 Carbon chassis with native Linux!
I don't know about Thinkpads, but the utterly pleasant glass trackpad is still one of the things I cannot find on most non-Mac laptops, despite every manufacturer being able to copy it for years.
The closest I've found are the Surface laptop/cover trackpads, but they have their own set of reliability and repairability issues.
As a MacBook user, I very rarely want to use a mouse except for gaming. THe trackpad is delightful enough for the bulk of my use cases.
You might be sleeping on trackpoint. I don't remember the last time I used a trackpad once I onboarded on trackpoint - all that hand waving is so tiring when you can achieve the same action even faster by just moving two fingers couple of milimeters. You just move your index from H to trackpoint and thumb from space to mouse buttons which is basically the smallest movement you can do on your keyboard.
> You just move your index from H to trackpoint and thumb from space to mouse buttons which is basically the smallest movement you can do on your keyboard.
What about gestures, like two-finger scroll, or two-finger hold+click right click?
Systems that have trackpoints have physical mouse buttons, so you can just do real right clicks. Scrolling typically has its own input combo: hold the middle mouse button plus push the trackpoint to scroll in whatever direction you're pushing.
If there's a trackpad as well (usually there is), you can still do all the multi-finger gestures on it unless you choose to disable the trackpad altogether.
Fwiw, I don't find the trackpoint faster or more precise than the giant MacBook trackpads. Its main advantages are being closer to your index fingers' likely resting position on the keyboard, physical mouse buttons, and requiring less vertical space than a giant trackpad.
I haven't used a touchpad in recent years that wasn't "good enough", I really don't obsess about those (but I acknowledge that many do here), but I profoundly dislike MacBooks' keyboards. Anyhow, let's not pretend that it matters as much as the broken mess of a desktop environment/windows manager that the OS sitting on top is.
> I don't know about Thinkpads, but the utterly pleasant glass trackpad is still one of the things I cannot find on most non-Mac laptops, despite every manufacturer being able to copy it for years.
I was never a trackpad person until I finally got a Mac at work maybe 10 years ago. But since the trackpads stopped really clicking in favor of haptics, they're a lot worse than they used to be. I get false/double clicks and inconsistent feedback.
ThinkPads have nicer keyboards, but they stopped doing the more traditional IBM layout several years ago, which is really unfortunate. I'd be willing to pay for a more traditional keyboard layout with a slightly smaller trackpad and/or a sizeable bottom bezel (which is actually preferable for me because of my posture when I use a laptop most of the time).
Always makes me wonder how people use their machine when I read comments like this
I’ve worked in big tech and fast growing startups, side by side at one point or another next to hundreds of nerds that love talking about hardware and software
The touchpad is almost universally loved - I have never ever once her anyone complain about the click - most people didn’t even notice the switch
It has 3D Touch and all that and I’ve never gotten a false click - ever - not exaggerating, in however long they’ve been out
The only complaint I’ve ever heard more than once is that sometimes it takes a second to respond
So I ask you: how do you use your laptop? If no one else complains about this, it’s at least worth asking the question: what do you think you’re doing differently than everybody else?
Sure, I can tell you one thing that's different right now: I use third-party software to get a three-finger middle click. If Apple's operating system weren't missing basic features like the ability to middle click via the trackpad, I wouldn't have to do that and maybe wouldn't have this problem.
Interestingly enough the Neo went back to a clicking trackpad; you might want to try one and see how it feels for you.
> I tend to disagree to a point: their laptops have great internals but are terrible from a usage perspective — I like to imagine their system board in a Thinkpad X1 Carbon chassis with native Linux!
> But HW is at least improving (eg. they added anti-reflective screen option), and SW is very much not.
And I would disagree with the idea that I should be running Linux on my primary machine. As a developer, I've faced enough "death by a thousand cuts" situations from running Linux on my personal router and servers to let it anywhere close to my main computer.
Don't even get me started on the hardware quality of Mac laptop including their stellar trackpads, screens and the smallest details like the quality of the hinge. I can still open my 5 year old Mac with a single finger and the hinge is as solid as the day I bought it.
As someone who's also particular about user experience, Linux always fails at this. If you have good UX, that means you can critically think for what a user wants from a computer, and can determine what should and shouldn’t be prioritized. UX is never a first-class citizen on Linux, and for all the issues with Tahoe, macOS still has enough residual quality left in it to not feel like I'm constantly fighting the operating system.
Simple example: I want HDR on Linux. Should be easy right? Just switch to Plasma under Wayland? Then do a one time config so mpv can play HDR. Oh and no browsers support it so good luck. Games need gamescope and flags to be set.
I want my computer to work, not for me to work as an integration engineer. So I use my Mac and it just works™. So I just let Linux live where I feel it works best, in servers and headless environments.
Out of curiosity, what are you developing? While regular usage stuff such as HDR is indeed lacking, and general UX leaves a lot to be desired, Linux was always best for me in any software development discipline that I took on, and macOS was a "death by a thousand cuts" instead.
With Linux, it is really multiple UX ecosystems: you can be in one (eg. Gtk+/Gnome and/or Qt/KDE) and consistency will be there. Not perfect, but MacOS is not much better.
OTOH, I want subpixel rendering on my big screens, and you can't have it with a Mac.
I was sooo in your boat just a while ago. Recently (15 days) switched to an Asus NUC pro (mini pc) with intel 225h. I kid you not, I am running Almalinux 10, KDE on it, not even the latest/greatest. I have HDR, VRR, 120Hz, media acceleration, with dual monitors with different settings you name it. Everything works!!
did you tried nix home-manager for linux software setup? i never was able to use linux until nix.
hardware - afaik only lenovo(some say asus is worth to try - but no official linux support, framework is sturdy but feels cheap) is well know for quality hardware - others are questionable.
unfortunately AMD AI Max 390/2/5+ nor Qualcomm Elite 2 Lenovos are not here.
if you use nixos you end up feeling like you need to spend more time developing your personal computer's configuration than developing your actual projects, ime.
it kind of 'just works' if someone already wrote the nix code to do what you want it to do and put it in nixpkgs and you manage to find it and figure out how to use it. but if that isn't the case, good luck. i once spent almost a week trying to get a program to build and run properly under nix that could probably be installed in around 20 seconds on a osx/windows machine.
This might have been the case a couple of years ago, but it is certainly not true any more, if you use AI [even occasionally] to manage some of your default.nix and flake.nix files. I learn by getting AI to edit it (default.nix for example), and then study what it did. It helps.
The quality of the managed / packages software, however, is still a bit subpar compared to Debian and Redhat.
NixOS people are kinda like Jehovah's Witnesses of Hacker News. Every time someone mentions Linux problems there is that one guy asking "But have you tried Nix?". No offense I just find it funny.
1. *nix problems, including bsd including darwin.
2. nix is just package manager and configurator of sh which forces to write idempotent sh code with explicit dependencies(just good practices right? check guidelines of any non nix solutions and you will find out that 90% of these rules are just nix). nixos, nix darwin, nix home manager final artifacts are just just idiomatic dotfiles, so nix does not exist.
How do you feel about their trackpad? I think they’re the best on the market.
I wish the trackpad on my macbook were smaller, because my thumbs constantly hit it and smite me into a different reality.
While typing?
Yes.
Interesting, I feel like Apple's palm (I guess thumb?) rejection has been working pretty good for me. In fact I am pretty sure as you type the cursor is completely disabled?
They're pretty good, but you can find other good trackpads too. The main thing about Apple is that their trackpads are consistently pretty good, while with other brands it can be hard to figure out what you'll be getting until you try it yourself.
There's also software component. It has improved by now, but early libinput was giving some good trackpads bad rep.
Agree, Microsoft needs to be next in my eyes. They have really degraded Windows. I do not know how Bill Gates uses a computer and doesnt lose his colossal shit at how garbage it is on high end Microsoft made devices.
For context, I have been a Microsoft fanboy for years, a .NET Developer for over a decade, my one Windows machine (I also love Linux ;) is a Microsoft made product, with all factory defaults, because Windows in the past has always been very stable for me if I don't go around tweaking things. For some reason however, my Windows copy on an official Microsoft device has been slowed to a crawl for like 3 years now, which is a bit concerning because I had it for a good 2 years before that. None of my Linux devices have this problem, and when I install Linux on any formerly Windows device, it brings new life to the device, and they last way longer than if I had just kept Windows.
I really think Craig needs to go. I can't remember a single software decision under his tenure that is good. Having said that I don't know who can replace him.
Bertrand Serlet, Avie Tevanian, Scott Forstall were all great with software directions.
Craig feels like a people pleaser. Which may be great for modern or current Silicon Valley where everything has a softer approach. But pleasing everyone means there is no unity and direction. Software stack that is less cohesive.
I still to this day do not believe Swift is the right path, in both technical and philosophical approach.
I think Tim Cook took Steve Job's vision and really took it to the moon. If you think about the last 15 years, Apple has really become the biggest possible version of itself without losing its values.
Tech in general has changed quite a bit though. I don't know how Steve Jobs would have reacted to AI, and I don't know where tech itself would be if Jobs were still around. But I do think the next evolution is due and yet to be seen. It's not clear that Tim Cook would be the one to effectively see that through. And so I think his timing is impeccable and probably aligned with what is best for Apple. I have a lot of respect here: time has shown that a lot of leaders don't let go until its too late.
I'd also add that from the perspective of an employee in the industry, Tim Cook has had a remarkably steady hand throughout multiple business cycles in the industry that have made Apple a much better place to work than many of the other very large tech companies: no massive over-hiring after covid, no massive layoffs to correct for that, average tenure at the company BLOWS other companies out of the water, a reputation for a strong engineering culture
I say this as someone who hasn't worked there, but has a large number of friends and peers who currently do or have in recent years.
Agree. With the cash balance that Apple has, CEO's usually get tempted to make moves that let them flex, but he was very disciplined in that sense.
For example, Tim had the discipline to get out of the EV projects. Which was likely wise given the challenges the sector has faced in profitability, and Apple's long term outside option to accrue vehicular services revenue through CarPlay. Yet someone in his position could have burned $200B pretty easily to try and build a business there.
The only mistake he made was not buying Tesla around the M3 launch. Elon was desperate and would have sold it to him for cheap. He didn't take the meeting.
Otherwise I completely agree, once Tesla reached takeoff, it's too hard for anyone else to do it without burning mountains worth of cash.
Yet he did still launch Vision Pro.
How much did that burn compared to the Metaverse?
yep, I worked there for 20+ years, only retired due to health. I was about middle of the park in my group’s tenure there…
How do you see AI playing out there? Are you glad you got out before AI coding became a thing? What are you up to in your retirement years, anything fun? Thanks.
> a reputation for a strong engineering culture
We’re talking about the company that shipped the storage bug?
Every software team ships bugs. That is not exclusive with a strong engineering culture.
> I think Tim Cook took Steve Job's vision and really took it to the moon.
I vehemently disagree with this. I think Cook's logistics and business-focused goals are, if not diametrically opposed to Job's product obsession, at the very least orthogonal to it. Almost everything about Apple the product, over the past 15 years, has either coasted (e.g. stayed at par with the rest of the industry) or gotten worse. The one exception is arguably Apple Silicon (and I'm sure their board is acutely aware of it).
I find this critique extremely odd. Sure, Apple isn't perfect, but literally every thing they do is top tier in the category they enter.
I started writing out a list of Apple's products and it was simply [x device] in [y category] is either the best or consistently rated in the top of that category.
MacOS sucks. I can't wait for the day Asahi Linux is good enough so that I can bail on it.
Safari, a web browser, randomly stops being able to connect to the Internet (other apps can).
MacOS sucks but everything else sucks harder. Linux is still nowhere close to being good enough for the average consumer in regards to simplicity regardless of how much gaslighting the community pushes.
Linux sucks in a way that is more controllable by me. I have run Arch Linux as my daily driver for 4-5 years. But I can't on a MacBook, which has the nicest hardware
It's not gaslighting; you're not the average consumer by the simple fact that you know what HN is. My 12 year old cousins havE daily driven ElementaryOS for a year
In Steve Jobs biography, I read that he was obsessed with the factory they built to mass produce devices. I think he was in some way also obsessed with logistics of how things were made, and Tim Cook came in and not only helped Apple but also helped transform the global supply chain.
I also think most products apple makes are in the top tier of their respective category, if not the best.
Airpods? They make more than most SaaS decacorns. How can you not credit that as a massive success that came out of nowhere?
It's a stealth subscription product. People are losing those things all the time.
And if not losing, the battery dies in 2-3 years, so you'll have to buy new anyway.
Eh, mine are four years old and still going strong. Battery still lasts longer than I need it to.
Like all other bluetooth in-ear phones.
Successful for the business no doubt, but they are an example of 'par with the rest of the industry' aren't they? Nothing market leading about them (except perhaps the price, heh) and not the first in the category, just one of a bunch of good options.
Nothing market leading about AirPods? I find it telling that it’s one of the only Apple products that LTT Linus is using, despite not working as well with Android as with iOS. And they have around 30% market share in their product category
You find it telling that some YouTube 'influencer' uses Airpods? You only noticed because of Apple's distinctive white branding, they have market leading marketing, I'll give you that!
Not GP, but I also find it telling that Influencer with a free pick at any sound equipment at any price point, famously not super onboard with the ecosystem (Bar recently with the Neo) still does pick them
Linus is not an audiophile by any means, but he's also exposed to more and better equipment than even most of the already significant outliers in HN
Their ability to connect and move between devices is 100x better than any competitor. They were also the first to make truly wireless earphones that didn't suck. Judging it now, when the market has finally caught up in most areas doesn't make sense.
>Their ability to connect and move between devices is 100x better than any competitor.
This statement only has any merit if your usage pattern is 100% limited to Apple devices, otherwise it falls apart.
It would be fine if they fell back to "at least as good as the competition" in a mixed use case, but in the mixed case they are worse than what even low-budget BT buds often offer (no BT Multipoint, no ear recognition, etc., hell, not even a battery level over BT...and even pairing/reconnect is often a crapshoot reminiscent of the state of BT Audio 10-15 years ago). It was honestly a really disappointing realization.
I have no problems using my AirPods across two Macs, an iPhone and Windows. I have to manually reconnect on Windows if I have an active Apple device nearby which I recently used the AirPods with, but apart from that it's quite seamless. This worked fine in 2020 already.
> Judging it now, when the market has finally caught up in most areas doesn't make sense.
Why? Why should we consider an advantage that doesn't exist anymore?
Because we're judging innovation. At the time it was innovative.
Less space than a nomad? ;-)
IMO the airpods vs the rest of the industry is kinda like the iphone vs blackberry.
Yes, what about airpods? Little reason to buy them if you are not in the Apple ecosystem, and if you are, and you are a careful buyer, you'll probably settle with other brands which are technically ahead (in either of build, sound or ANR quality, or all, Apple being on the Pareto front of neither). I'm not dismissing the marketing forces behind airpods selling by the millions as a "status symbol", but that's very much a "high cost of living country" thing, Apple is inexistent elsewhere, which is most places.
Apple plays the 'it's the best for most people' game, not the 'technically ahead in [one or a few feature categories]' game. They make the lion's share of profit in the categories they compete in because they sell to the mass market; there's 2.5 billion active iOS devices!
Every time I see someone here dismiss this success as status symbol-oriented marketing, I just shake my head at how much that signals a deep misunderstanding of how the world works or what most of the human race wants in a product. Nobody wants the Sony WF-1000XM5 earbuds because Sony doesn't even give a shit enough to give them a name people can remember. Nobody wants Bose earbuds because nobody wants to open a buggy spyware-laden app to turn on/off noise cancelling. These products are destined to fail because they make simple things complicated, untrustworthy, bothersome.
People are whole-experience buyers, not single-feature buyers, and the experience nearly every person on earth wants is the magical 'I put it in and it works' experience. What people want is all the upside of the magic of technology and none of the cognitive overhead associated with it. The specific choices that make up a product offering - aka the product marketing - reflect the inherent desire of the customer. Any luxury / status symbol aspects come AFTER that.
>Nobody wants the Sony WF-1000XM5 earbuds
You fool! The WF-1000XM5 is the worst model of the line! You should buy the WF-1010XN5, it is far superior!
Apple tends to name things in an odd way, e.g. sometimes you need to remember whether your laptop came out in "early" 2014 or "late" 2014, but they have a remarkably flat, but consistent, product line.
I mean, honestly, if somebody just tossed you a random Macbook from the Apple store, it may not be the exact model you want but you wouldn't complain. All of them are pretty good, even down to the bargain basement Neo.
Yeah tho most customers never even encounter that level of detail. Most people just know there’s a ‘new one’ and an ‘old one’. If they have an old one, they come in and get a new one. Everyone replaces on their own replacement schedule, and every year there’s a new one, so it kinda just works for everyone.
Apple at its best makes its product like so legible people only need dim awareness of what they’re buying. That’s only possible if you build a ton of trust with consumers, which is why Apple is so so focused on their brand value.
This comes off as a quite dismissive and incurious take. Are you quite sure that of the ~500 million consumers who bought a pair, nobody considered utility and it was simply a fashion choice? Or is it more likely that some consumers judge the utility differently from you?
I happen to have a pair of airpod pro 2 and some Sony's (the airpods being a gift). Nothing about the airpods strikes me as being clearly superior, which is surprisingly rare for Apple products: they tend to all stand out in one way or another, whether that's essential to the experience or not (I have no use for an iPad, but I can tell a good display when I see one, I wouldn't keep a MacBook if one was gifted to me, but I can appreciate a good trackpad, …).
Airpods? I have nothing bad to say about them, but nothing good either (I rather take the Sony's with better NC and battery life on a flight, better audio quality and painless equalizer).
> Or is it more likely that some consumers judge the utility differently from you?
That's possibly the case, so help me, what I am missing?
Apple didn't use to be a status symbol. I think they earned it. And the fact that they are going all in on Neo tells me they don't care about the status symbol part as much as the profit maximizing. Let me know when Ferrari sells an affordable car.
Yep - Apple have worked through to becoming a luxury, upscale brand and there is no reason for them right now to change from that perception with their current market upper hand
Im not sure how you think Apple is an upscale luxury brand. Every teenager in America owns an iphone with airpods.
Thats the power of marketing, making you think you are exclusive and treating yourself to luxury when you buy their product, instead of the reality that is everybody on the planet owns the same device as you.
Staus symbol is defined as "a visible, external marker—such as luxury goods, exclusive memberships, or specific lifestyles—used to indicate an individual's high social, economic, or professional standing."
Does owning the same phone as every 16 year old in America really fit that description?
1967, the Dino 206 GT
People forget that you could buy Ferrari's in the 60s for 7-18K. 7K was the entry Ferrari. Average new car price in 1967 was $3000, so the entry Ferrari was 2.3 times the average new car price.
Today the average new car price in the US is 50K. That would make an entry Ferrari 115K, but the cheapest new Ferrari is the Roma at 225K, or double that.
Ferrari used to be more accessible, but we had compressed incomes then, the rich weren't so far from the middle as they are now. Similarly in 1967 a bottle of Channel no 5 cost $15, but today it is $200. According to inflation, it should be $140, so again roughly double the spread.
I use AirPods and I have a Google Pixel, Windows laptop, and so on.
That's a very weird choice. I can understand people buying them for the integration with the Apple ecosystem, but outside of it they're just dumb bluetooth earphones. There are better alternatives.
Instead of being curious why someone would make a choice you didn't, you chose to attack the choice! You might as well stick your fingers in your ears and go "na na na I can't hear you!" until you find a tribe of fellow haters.
In my experience, they work much better, their bluetooth connectivity and the way both of them are in sync is top notch. I also find their ergonomics the best for comfort, battery, how the case works, etc. And they have one of the best microphone for calls and how audible you are to the other person while not picking up too much noise.
This is tangential but somehow fits here. I tried multiple wired and bluetooth earphones/headphones with my switch 2. And the only ones that gave the sound that was acceptable to me, were the airpods. I had the Sony WHX… headphones, I also tried them using an aux cable, I had a few aux wired earphones (skullcandy and some others), all of their output was weak. I am not even sure how that’s possible, I don’t understand sound/music quality as much, but I was genuinely surprised by this.
It’s a logical choice. They are good and not that expensive. The whole "they only fit with other Apple devices" is misleading. They work better with a Mac than a Windows PC, sure, but on that Windows PC they work as well as the really good alternatives. None of the supposedly better alternatives are better in every aspect. It’s a tradeoff.
> you'll probably settle with other brands which are technically ahead (in either of build, sound or ANR quality, or all, Apple being on the Pareto front of neither)
Like what? In the true wireless camp, the Sony's are much less comfortable (and more expensive), the Bose are not as good (and more expensive)...
There's cheaper options, sure, but you're sacrificing build, ANC, battery life, etc.
Except we can’t discount the fact that Jobs chose Cook as his successor. So there’s something Jobs clearly saw there, past being “diametrically opposed” to Jobs’ product obsession. Maybe Jobs felt there were enough product people.
Hacker News? More like MBA news.
I'm not just being snarky — I don't think it's reasonable to say the profit-maximizing service-oriented Apple is the best possible version of itself without losing its values of personal computing and individual empowerment.
Profit maximizing often involves selling much cheaper and lower quality versions of your products. Often times this involves even getting other companies to mass produce it under your name. The cheapest Mac is arguably their best product.
Besides some changes to macOS and removing the ability to upgrade I've been pretty happy with Apple.
Steve Jobs existed in an era where he could show us new technology when new technology brought a sense of joy and amazement; whereas due to a multitude of factors, new technology no longer causes such emotions for a substantial portion of people.
The main factor is that the same people are 15 years older now. You can ask people who are 50+ now whether they felt "a sense of joy and amazement" when iPhone was introduced.
There's nothing like that reveal of the first MacBook Air, where he whips it out of a manilla envelope. I loved that first one at the time. Maybe less so on my lap when it turned into a stovetop - but it was innovative and cool and exciting, and the stuff now is not.
The fact they figured out how to transition all their laptops to ARM so it won’t be a stovetop on your lap is amazing
Agreed - once the ad-based profit model took off that no longer became possible.
Which is the chicken and which is the egg here though? Maybe new technology that moves people isn’t coming because Tim Cook was the ceo.
To a point I think the blame lies on the tech companies not doing their jobs. The iPad could have been that kind of joy and amazement machine for many, except it never was allowed to entrench on the mac or the iPhone.
The Steamdeck was a breath of fresh air, the whole Steam frames and cube could have been a big deal.
Eh, it still could if anyone would make it a priority. I’m not a Jobs or Apple fanboy by any stretch, but I think this is selling him short.
Cook did a great job. I was hesitant when Steve Jobs died and Cook took over. Jobs was so visionary and it wasn’t clear that a finance guy would be a good fit. He clearly learned what he needed to and he trusted those people around him in the organization who also had vision to do what they do best. So, kudos to Cook. He proved my fears unwarranted.
Siri was under jobs. He saw AI before everyone else
I know it is actually AI, but calling Siri AI vs the current state of the art is... generous.
Siri was GOFAI (handwritten software) rather than a model written by a machine learning algorithm.
Calling the current state of art AI is also generous.
The problem with the word "AI" is that it's a broad term with fuzzy borders depending on who you ask.
But no matter what definition you take Siri was not the first AI. It's a classical cases of Apple fans thinking Apple invented everything because they saw it first in an Apple product...
If you think about AI in broad terms, it goes back to the 1970's where any skill computers gained originally thought as only human was called AI. Like playing chess.
If you think about the recent use of AI = LLM chatbots/gen AI, Siri wasn't an LLM.
> But no matter what definition you take Siri was not the first AI. It's a classical cases of Apple fans thinking Apple invented everything because they saw it first in an Apple product...
That’s a point you are very unlikely to see being made. Apple famously bought the startup that was making Siri. They didn’t even change the name.
> It's a classical cases of Apple fans thinking Apple invented everything because they saw it first in an Apple product.
This is a classic case of thinking that inventing something before others is all that matters, while ignoring that finding a mass market use-case for an existing technology is also important.
Siri was already an iphone/android app before Apple bought it, to be fair.
AI talks started before Jobs was born...
I am not a big Apple fan, but when I see what they did with the M-series MacBooks, it feels like they are from the future. And not just a year ahead or so, but more like a decade.
This is something Tim and John both deserve credit for.
Cook has done more or less the opposite of what Jobs did.
Jobs was all about bold innovation, hugely risky bets on gamechanging products.
Cook is a timid logistics optimizer, and he's good at that. We reliably get an iPhone with slightly more RAM, slightly faster CPU on schedule every year. No category changing products.
Innovation has stopped -- after Jobs, there is only minor incremental improvement
Reminds me of the Godfather and how they called Tom Hagen not a "wartime consigliere". This was at a time when conflicts were starting up again and Vito had just been gunned down. Tim is Tom. Steve was Vito.
When Steve Jobs came back in 1997 Apple was against the ropes and they needed some radical change lest they sink.
But after they stabilized around 2010s then they didn't need radical shakeups but to maintain the good thing they got going. Tim was the man for that. And he did it well.
And yes I get that in this case one is a consigliere and one is the Don but there's similarity here.
I don't own one, but the Apple Watch did very much change the category, defined it even. Vision Pro was a innovative bet, maybe not a great one. Apple Silicon completely changed the game.
And the highest profit product you left out that was also category defining: Airpods.
Good point, thanks!
The Apple Watch is a niche product for a few tech nerds (at least outside of Silicon Valley tech circles), not an ubiquitous feature of everyday life for normal people the way the PC, the iPod, and the iPhone are.
Vision Pro was a science experiment that few people have even heard of.
Apple Silicon is a perfect example of a purely internal-facing logistics optimization: sure, it's fine in terms of saving money and boosting performance. 99% of end users do not know or care whether they have Apple Silicon or Intel chips.
Just utter nonsense about the watch. They're very popular with normal British people like my mother. M1 was a performance per watt revolution. Sounds like you're either clueless, hate Apple or Tim Cook, or all of the above.
No need for the personal attacks.
Let's keep it quantitative rather than relying upon personal anecdotes: Apple does not break out unit sales for the Watch (which in itself is telling.)
According to third party analyst estimates which are readily obtainable from search engines, the Apple Watch has shipped just over 100 million units worldwide since inception. Upgrade cycles are weak to nonexistent. Growth flatlined years ago -- even declining slightly in recent years. After the initial burst of interest from early adopters -- that is, tech nerds plus a few outliers here and there among normies -- demand fizzled.
The iPhone has shipped 3 billion units. It is in an entirely different category. While demand has roughly plateaued, there is a strong upgrade / replacement cycle. Annual iPhone sales are in the ~250M range -- far more iPhones are sold every year than all Apple Watches that have ever been sold in history.
The Apple Watch is firmly in the "niche product" category. It's not a "gamechanger for everyday life for normal people," notwithstanding the existence of a few normie outliers here and there.
> No category changing products
That's the bar you set. So you're saying the Apple Watch did not change the watch category? And likewise Airpods, or Apple Silicon laptops?
I don't know where the comparisons to iPhone have come from. No, it's not comparable to iPhone. Nobody said it was. That would be crazy.
You call Vision Pro a science experiment and dismiss Apple Silicon as irrelevant to users, but also say there's been no innovation. How do you square that?
> Tim Cook took Steve Job's vision and really took it to the moon.
He only carried what was left from Steve Jobs. But nothing special or groundbreaking came from him. Apple Vision failed, the transition to AI failed, many people still dislike what is done with the MacBook, he agreed to have the horrible glass UI design just like what Windows did a decade ago, and he failed to find the next Jony Ive, etc... Sure he was an awesome COO. But as a CEO, he was certainly way below Steve Jobs and even less taking his vision "to the moon".
> without losing its values
I would disagree here. Apple actually did lose their values, or they are in the process of doing so.
Ads in App Store results, Ads in Maps (coming soon!), constant upsells and pushes of subscriptions and services, forced upgrade of Numbers/Pages/Keynote with annoying nags that can't be turned off, things are getting worse.
Also, when the word "values" is mentioned, one cannot forget about Tim Cook's donations to Trump and his overall support of Trump and cozying up to him.
Honestly, I think Jobs would hate the fuzzy, unpolished results that AI gives you.
I despise the Cook hate from some Apple fans. No he’s not the visionary that Jobs was. But I think he was the best person to scale Apple up to what it is today while still keeping the soul of the company alive.
> Apple has really become the biggest possible version of itself without losing its values.
I could not disagree more. Apple has become increasingly just another tech company shipping products that are great but not insanely so.
The level of insanely great coming out of Apple has been in steady and constant decline since Jobs’ death.
The “I wish Steve were still around so he could have vetoed this” that I get have been steadily increasing on a y/y basis for the last 5-10 years.
I’m not talking about big obvious macro stuff like the Airpods Max being super mid or how much my face hurts after wearing the ridiculously heavy Vision Pro for a while, but the constant subscription nags for $5 after buying a $1500 phone and a million other little paper cuts, culminating lately in the polished turd of an OS that is 26.x. Apple is the most un-Apple it has ever been in its history. Their contempt for their users is now palpable.
> Apple has really become the biggest possible version of itself without losing its values.
Such as Think Different, where you don't need to comply with the standard ways of doing things?
From a Steve Jobs interview in relation to this statement:
> When you grow up you tend to get told the world is the way it is and your job is just to live your life inside the world. Try not to bash into the walls too much. Try to have a nice family life, have fun, save a little money.
> That's a very limited life. Life can be much broader once you discover one simple fact, and that is - everything around you that you call life, was made up by people that were no smarter than you. And you can change it, you can influence it, you can build your own things that other people can use.
(Via Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Think_different)
I couldn't think of a company to whose hardware "your job is just to live your life inside [someone else's] world" applies more, though maybe that's because Oracle doesn't make consumer hardware products
Edit: I should probably add that this isn't meant as a purely negative statement: many people want to hand over digital control and have someone else be bothered with keeping the hardware running and curating what software they're allowed to run. It's not me, and it's not what Steve Jobs said Apple was about, but it's not that I don't understand why someone's grandma would choose it
His letter (at the top of Apple's web site) is moving:
https://www.apple.com/community-letter-from-tim/
I understand Tim is a logistics genius and Ternus is a hardware genius, and that we all want better software and policy from Apple, but I'm glad that there seems to be good people at the head of one of the biggest and most consequential companies, and further that they seem to care about being good people.
As far as I can see, that's the only way to have a prayer of scaling without too much damage, which is the key issue humanity faces today.
Thank you for sharing the link, it's a good read.
Also want to second your point about the need for having good people leading large organizations like Apple. Especially so as things are changing so fast in technology, with a widening impact across more and more aspects and parts of lives of people and society. We certainly see the negative impact that comes with questionable and/or short term decisions (see social media), so I too am hopeful that above all else, Ternus is a good person and makes (for the most part) good decisions for people and society first and foremost.
> I understand Tim is a logistics genius and Ternus is a hardware genius, and that we all want better software and policy from Apple
While I agree with all these points, I'd still rather see a hardware guru leading Apple rather than a software-focused leader. The state of software zeitgeist has gotten fairly poor, and the types of formal and thorough "Acceptance Testing" that are common in hardware are more likely to produce great experiences for users than whatever most software leaders are doing today.
Before anyone mentions how all hardware groups seem to produce god-awful software (IoT, vehicles, etc)...I agree, though I have generally attributed this to a lack of budget and vision. I don't expect those two things to be an issue at Apple, but I could be surprised.
This is a really good take. This is absolutely not software's stable era, we're in for a rough next decade as AI upends every well-established software practice and the very paradigms we've relied on for so long of apps, OS, and ecosystem. This is an era we have to get through and it's going to be messy as hell.
Leadership needs to make sure everything else in the business is in order so that they can contain and shape the direction of the white-hot plasma of AI and its implications. A software leader would be too hands-on in this process and get nerd sniped. Sometimes you need some distance.
https://www.apple.com/community-letter-from-tim/
Why share it as a quote rather than a link I can click?
I really wish they did more for free software. I know they contribute heavily to LLVM and are still the main stewards of webkit, but they've very much ignored darwin as a free software operating system, to the point it feels like they only keep it free out of legal obligation
Ternus is not a hardware genius. He's a hardware engineer that rose through the ranks at Apple because, from what I've heard from Apple hardware engineers, Dan Riccio liked him "like a son."
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> Tim is a logistics genius
https://www.forbes.com/sites/rachelsandler/2020/03/25/tim-co...
Well he is, but I cannot forget being completely blown away by the lack of, I don't even know what to call it.
On a moment of worldwide shortage, this move didn't move masks to the US that were shelved in forgotten warehouses, they raised the price and left medical workers from poorer countries exposed.
> His letter (at the top of Apple's web site) is moving
As an aside, I absolutely love the minimal elegance of that web page.
I honestly don't know. tim@apple.com is unavailable for quite some time now (since I tried a few years ago), while lisasu@amd.com still works around that time frame.
It's always been tcook@ - and it will get looked at by someone at least
Yes! Can confirm. I emailed him in March 2020 after my 16-day old MacBook Pro had a logic board failure resulting in endless kernel panics. It was just past the return date so I couldn’t just return it and get a new one, so my local Apple Store had sent it in for repair. Then covid hit and everything shut down, so they couldn’t get it fixed and sent back either.
I had emailed with an explanation of what had occurred, and asked if I could get a refund so that I could just purchase a replacement. Within two hours of sending my email, an assistant from his office called me to arrange sending me a replacement. I was really impressed. I honestly figured I would just have to wait until the repair depot opened again, because I didn’t think I would hear back about my email.
Then a month or so later I got a call from the repair depot asking what address I’d like my repaired laptop sent to, since it was supposed to be sent back to the store for pickup (but stores were closed.) So I guess the right hand knoweth not what the left hand doeth in that case, because the person on the phone from repairs was pretty confused when I said no thanks.
I'm really curious how he manages to read through so many emails every day.
I would have assumed that some assistant goes through the inbox and only a (random or filtered) subsample of those mails actually gets read by Tim Cook.
I suspect they've implemented some kind of intelligent email filtering system
Like hiring an assistant haha
> and further that they seem to care about being good people.
Sorry, but this is pretty naive. You simply can't infer the real personality of a CEO from a (well)crafted public letter.
If he really cared about being a decent person, he wouldn't have sucked up to Trump.
>but I'm glad that there seems to be good people at the head
Wonder if he'll be as good as Cook was at kissing Trump's ass. Half serious, half /s.
For Apple nerds that pay close attention to company, this is no surprise. Third-party dev Marco Arment wrote a blog post speaking to Ternus earlier this month[0].
Marco has enough standing within our world that it's actually a clever idea to appeal to Ternus on these terms. He'll probably be aware that it was written and the appeal is somewhat generic in its call to reverse course on some Cook-era policies.
We're all very hopeful but there's not enough information available on the outside to predict with any certainty how he'll lead.
0. https://marco.org/2026/04/01/letter-to-john-ternus
Marco should concentrate on fixing the UX abomination that Overcast has become instead of writing breathy sophomoric letters. At this point, I’ll vibe code my own podcast player.
I mean, whatever your opinion of his redesign of the app (I know a lot of people were pretty unhappy), he is a host on a podcast that has had Phil Schiller (former head of marketing who was on stage with Jobs for many years) as a guest while he was still an Apple exec. He's a known entity to them.
Further, one of the other hosts is John Siracusa, the guy who wrote in-depth 18 page reviews of MacOS X releases for ArsTechnica for many years. He got a shoutout from Apple's head of software, Craig Federighi, when I attended a live interview in 2019 during the week of their World Wide Developer's Conference (hosted by John Gruber of Daring Fireball). Siracusa must have been in the first few rows because Federighi said something like, "Oh, there's Siracusa." You could label that "fan service" because everyone in that theater knows who he's talking about and it's a form of acknowledging the crowd as a community.
So, all of this is to say that Marco is one of the small number of outsiders who could write such a letter on their blog and have upper ranks of Apple hear about it and maybe, maybe not, be curious enough to see what was said. I can't do that. I don't know if you can. But Marco can. I'm glad he took a shot. Whether it means anything, we'll never know.
And yes, the release of his redesign was premature, but I'm ok with the app as my daily podcast driver right now.
Oh I love ATP and even eventually warmed up to Casey. It’s just that “stick to what you know” (or don’t?) thing. I’m not one of those that hate on Tahoe, it’s a temporary distraction, but Overcast more and more looks like some kind of slapped together non native app. He needs to hire a designer, he can afford it.
If you want to burn tokens making a bespoke podcast player its probably a good learning exercise. I like Overcast, it would be great if i could see the latest episodes on the front page when opening the app, otherwise its fine.
Settings -> customize home screen -> show recent episodes
Why would anyone pay close attention to a company ?
It is not a tongue in cheek remark, I am genuinely curious
> Why would anyone pay close attention to a company ?
Why would anyone pay close attention to a sports team? A musician? A writer?
But if you read Arment's post:
> As you grow into the leader that we know you can be, I urge you, on behalf of everyone who loves computers as much as we do, to protect and cultivate this spirit of Apple’s founders as the company’s top priority:
> *We love computers. We don’t hide that — we celebrate it!
> *We use computers to enhance our minds, lives, and abilities — not to be controlled, restricted, tricked, placated, angered, or surveilled.
> *Our computers work for us, with the utmost respect for our time, attention, money, data, and privacy.
> *We are customers and owners — not resources to be harvested, annoyed, or badgered into ever more services and upsells.
> Apple leads the industry in these values, but leading doesn’t always mean excelling. Remaining true to these values requires constant diligence, honest evaluation, introspection, and the audacity and courage to effect change.
* https://marco.org/2026/04/01/letter-to-john-ternus
Perhaps if more companies had values besides "shareholder value"[1] the world would be a better place.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedman_doctrine
I dunno. Cause I spend a lot of money on their products and a lot of my time using their software. The announcements they make affect the way I use computers.
Does anyone here pay close attention to updates in the Linux kernel or is that pretty stupid too? (To be fair, you didn't call me stupid, but it's sorta there.)
What's Framework doing? I'm pretty jazzed about their laptops even though I don't buy them.
What about game companies that get bought by Microsoft and now people worry that the franchise they love might get killed?
I'm a nerd and I care a lot about a thing. I don't feel bad about that.
Because you’re a shareholder.
Or because you’re interested in the products and the „company community“ is fun and you like talking about it.
I'm curious how you ended up creating an account on Hacker News if you don't see why people would be interested in major news regarding the biggest computer maker on the planet.
When your livelihood indirectly depends on their whims (aka the app store rules) or the possibility some new feature or product they announce directly affects the way you build your software, either positively or negatively, why not pay close attention?
I've been critical of Cook at times because I feel his vision was a business vision more than the kind of futurism I felt from Jobs. Cook was the ultimate bean counter, hyper-optimizing Apple from a financial and operational perspective. I felt like he took less risks and was mostly squeezing every single advantage that Apple had to its limit.
But I cannot argue with the results the man achieved. Especially the transition to A-series and then M-series chips has been an incredible success. Perhaps the biggest flop was the Apple Vision Pro, but it is hard to really call him out on that since it wasn't that Apple lost a battle, it was that the product category just hasn't caught on (yet). Siri is another place where Apple has lagged but they could very easily catch up with the massive interest in local AI on the mac minis.
I think it will be difficult to look back on his legacy without giving him a large share of credit for Apple's continued success.
Moving to Apple Silicon perfectly suited Tim Cook’s skill set and is a great foundation for the company’s future. He played to his strengths in a way that genuinely brought huge benefits to the consumer.
Now I think we need to see Apple remake categories the way they did under Steve. If that can happen again, the future is bright.
“Good morning. We have moved to Taiwan.”
I like Tim, but I don’t think the Tim we see is the real Tim. He must be an absolute elite sniper ninja cyborg internally, which is also cool.
Strategic competence and playing to your strengths is ok to me. Avoiding lots of bad decisions can sometimes be just as good as making some really good decisions.
Bold futurism can work very well when you're the (relative) scrappy underdog. So long as you're too smart or lucky to make any huge mistakes.
Vs. when you're in the Top 10 of the Fortune Global 500, "steady as she goes" business vision is the far safer strategy.
>massive interest in local AI
Gosh I just read a really hellish thread on what frontier LLMs will become as they're infected with advertising, I hope apple manages to break locsl LLMs (and training?) Into the public discourse
The Vision Pro's failings are IMHO not software or hardware related but a poorly executed platform strategy for content. Apple's reflex to build walled gardens has crippled the effort. And it's not the first time. Their Apple TV strategy was held back for years as well. Great hardware. Very cheap. You can plug it into any TV. It's not a bad game console even. But it lacked games. And streaming TV channels. And for a long time also streaming content. Apple fixed that eventually but Apple TV remains a distant competitor to more main stream platforms such as Netflix, which works on just about anything. Just like Youtube, Hulu, Amazon Prime, HBO, Disney, and all the rest. Apple TV at this point is an also ran that apparently is barely profitable. A few nice TV series but very much a niche player. The Apple TV hardware is more or less irrelevant at this point. And despite the name, Apple never made a TV or much of a dent into conquering the living room.
Macs are great for gaming in terms of hardware. But other gaming platforms dominate the market. And Apple's walled garden approach is so effective that Steam's proton doesn't work on its platforms (so far). And its attempt to convince game developers to use Apple specific SDKs like Metal and build platforms are not really making any dent in the overall gaming market, which now eclipses Hollywood in terms of revenue and budgets. From a developer point of view it remains a highly crippled platform. And the Apple tax isn't helping.
Seen against this background, the Vision Pro is a strategic content failure. Very few 3D games work on it. Very little new 3D content is developed for it. Apple's insistence on our way or the highway continues to have developers preferring the highway. There are a few decades worth of back catalog of VR games, 3D movies, etc. Most of which flat out won't work on the Vision Pro or aren't licensed for it. They could fix that but that would require investing in content/licensing deals, compatibility/emulation, etc. And by making the core product so expensive, it basically became a niche product. And without content that remains a hard sell. It does not make sense for productions with hundreds of millions of budget (i.e. most 3D games and movies) to be targeting such a niche platform. And it does not make sense for end users to buy the product if there is no good content and if most of the good content is never released for it.
It's a very fixable problem. Valve is leading the way with Proton currently. That strategy is very portable to macs and the Vision pro. There is very little technical reason to stop that from working. And Apple has been chipping away at their own portability kit. But they are so far not really committing to it fully. They should be filling the Apple store with decades worth of great content that just works on Apple HW. As it is there is only a relatively small collection of old content that has been ported.
Re: Apple TV (the studios and the content)... it is a bit of mystery: it's very worthy and good - arguably one of Tim Cook's finest achievements - but not a runaway success in a very competitive post-TV market. Steve Jobs shepherded Pixar into the world, and I'm sure he'd consider Apple TV (again the content arm) a comparable achievement.
Steve Jobs called the original Apple TV a "hobby", and, similarly for now there isn't any pressure for it to massively grow.
I don't watch much of it but I do think Apple TV could end up a big winner in the TV wars. The shows they put out are quality and you know they are going to be renewed unlike a Netflix. It seems the strategy is to go for HBO's old position as the king of quality but that is built over decades.
I wonder what Apple TV would look like if they didn’t have Ted Lasso to put out during peak Covid. That’s really their only large mainstream success and in my estimation that success was largely a product of circumstance.
I love their SciFi material but two seasons of severance in three years won’t keep people subscribed. The only reason I have Apple TV for more than a month or two out of the year is due to the bundle plan math working out with family sharing.
In no particular order:
Silo For All Mankind Tehran Foundation (“meh-ish, but watchable”) Slow Horses Murderbot Shrinking …
I’ve seen most of those. Slow horses is phenomenal no notes. for all mankind would be as well if not for the low grade melodrama of the middle seasons, but all the space stuff is amazing. silo is good fun but like severance we’ve gotten two short seasons in how many years? shrinking started out great but did a speedrun in one season of what normally takes jenji kohan three. Foundation has decent highs especially with the dynasty and invictus in season two, but the lows are loooww. And of course severance might even be a masterpiece.
But my point wasn’t that they don’t make good television because they do, it’s that their shows aren’t talked about nearly as much in the mainstream because people don’t have Apple tv. I think Ted lasso and to a lesser degree severance are really their only major popular hits. Most people I talk to haven’t seen slow horses. If it were on Netflix they would have.
And I’m just left to wonder where Apple TV would be now if Ted lasso hadn’t been a massive breakout success for the platform, which i think largely only happened because it was a decent feel good show that came out right when the entire world was miserable and cooped up inside looking for new content.
It’s not the “walled garden” that’s preventing Valve to write Proton for Mac, it’s the lack of Vulcan support. Apple pushed to its own Metal framework when they deprecated OpenGl, which is probably great for performance, but outright denying support for Vulkan was a killer blow for games.
Which they could choose to fix but didn't because they are treating it as a walled garden. Which is the same reason they removed the OpenGL support and declined to update/modernize that implementation. As reverse engineering efforts for asahi linux have shown, implementing Vulkan is perfectly possible and apparently runs with pretty decent performance. And as Apple's own efforts with the game porting kit show, supporting DirectX is also not an impossibility and there are some examples of ported games in the Apple store.
Apple religiously defends its walled gardens. Stuff like this is the exact symptom. They don't allow third parties to "fix" this either. They don't really document their own hardware and treat it as a control point. They also don't support independent efforts to port other operating systems on mac hardware.
There is some good analysis here, but your argument about the Vision Pro being a content failure doesn't hit for me. It isn't just Apple that has failed in this space, we have Meta, Valve, HTC and a few others who have all had pretty lack-luster results. VR as a product category just doesn't seem to have caught on.
If Macs were "great" for gaming people would be buying them for gaming.
You can release a phone with desktop-strength hardware running Ubuntu Touch and people will wouldn't buy it to play games because exceedingly few games are made for it
Software support is vital here, you can't just say that if the hardware is good then people would buy it. What good is it if you can't use it?
This is exactly why the hardware + software vertical integration philosophy is fundamentally retarded. What it essentially means for N hardware vendors to each have their own software platform is that as an application developer, instead of having to develop ONE application, you have to develop N applications. Imagine if Apple hardware just used Linux and macOS / iOS / whateverthefuckOS was just a desktop environment project like Plasma / GNOME / COSMIC. You could still keep the exact same particularities / UX flows / ease of use that people expect from Apple products, AND get free access to the wealth of software and content which exists for Linux and ALSO Windows (because of wine).
I’m curious Ternus’ views on services and the heavy hand Cook has had with them. I’d like to see Apple chill out a bit. Have them, but stop pestering users with in-OS ads and notifications to sign up. It’s been very off putting and cheapens the platform.
I hope they sell a higher priced monthly Apple One bundle which allows people to pay extra to not see ads in Apple Maps. Can even make it multiple tiers for no ads in Apple TV and Apple Maps, or maybe privacy plus tiers so they can earn more money by not selling search history.
Personally, I hope the lack of advertisements in Apple Maps comes bundled with the fact that I purchased an iPhone. A lack of ads is a selling point.
My comment was tongue in cheek. They are already here:
https://ads.apple.com/maps
Which means the only other option is to hopefully be able to pay Apple even more to not have to see ads. Maybe buy more Apple shares to share in this "advancement".
Just because they are hear doesn’t mean they can’t ago away.
Under Jobs they tried iAds. The idea was to make ads so high quality that people would want to interact with them, and they had to go through a vetting process to ensure there were no dark patterns that would make people scared to tap an iAd. After a while, it was decided it didn’t work and they pulled it.
A company is under no obligation to continue bad ideas.
God that's really disappointing, having ads in the app store was bad enough but in an app I use everyday lowkey makes me reconsider using an iphone. I know I can always install another app but I feel like apple's moat is their 1st party software and them cheapening it to make a few cents is really disappointing. It feels really dumb going to a nice apple store opening up the app store for the first time on your $1k+ phone and you're immediately served ads so apple can make a few cents. The customer experience downgrade does not seem worth it to me.
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Especially when ads win out over UX. Just a month ago I searched for UPS locations in Google Maps and filtered by open, and one place nearby popped up. I put the package in my car and drove over and lo and behold they were closed. When faced with a choice, Google chose to be greedy and make money on an ad unit over providing the correct user experience.
I've used Google Maps for two decades and have 1000s of saved pins. I could have been a customer for life. Haven't used it since.
Add Apple News to the list. Paying for Apple News and still getting paywalled by various sources was insane. I don’t know who approved that, but it turned me off the whole service.
Apple Maps really needs to up their POI game. They have some native data, but I’m still regularly seeing images from 3rd party sites and get prompted to download the app. I understood it in year 1, but we’re 13 years in now. This is the primary reason I keep Google Maps around.
It's remarkably annoying, as a business, to keep your Apple Maps data up to date. But, thankfully, they seem to have ended their partnership with Yelp.
> But, thankfully, they seem to have ended their partnership with Yelp.
I’m not so sure about this. Tapping around to some random businesses around me, I see photos being pulled in from Yelp, OpenTable, and Foursquare.
When I try to view the photos full screen, OpenTable and Foursquare images work seamlessly. Yelp prompts for an app download to jump me over to their world, which is a horrible user experience.
Friends don't let friends support Yelp. Hopefully that's all just cruft. Apple used to get things like open hours from Yelp, but now they have their own, complicated, Apple ID location that I never remember to update and have to go through typical Apple ID machinations to use.
I just opened maps and took a look. Kinda shocking to me that there doesn’t appear to be an obvious or easy way to add POI data. Google Maps is huge on promoting users to supply UGC.
Google also tries to show the impact of user-submitted POI info to help people feel good about it and encourage more submissions.
I submitted a few minor location edits to make the markers more accurate. Occasionally I’ll get an email telling me how often my new location change has been used. It’s not enough to be annoying, I’m always just shocked at the impact. Back in July I got an email that one of my updates was viewed 500k times, for a little boat rental shop on the Great Lakes. It had been really hard to find with the former location of the marker. Another one edit in a more populated area had 1.7m views.
I’ve only made 3 edits, but I can where feedback like this could get a person make map updates as a hobby, especially if the map data still needs a lot of work. One person with some free time could have a massive impact on the maps data in their community.
They should charge for it.
If you buy the 'iPhone Max' for $1500, you get ads, and if you buy the 'iPhone Max ad-free' for $3800, you don't get any ads in the app store, apple maps, apple news, or the various other apple services you use on only that one device. Similarly, you need to buy the ad-free edition of the iPad to not get ads there, and the ad-free version of the macbook for no ads there, and each of them can cost ~2.5x the cost.
I think that would be better than a monthly subscription since you'd just pay it once and then never think about it again.
There is no way they’re making that much per phone on adding ads.
YouTube’s who platform is built to show ads and run by an ad company. They are likely going to be much more profitable than a few ads in the App Store and Maps, and I’ve read Premium users are more profitable than ad-supported users. They are charging $160/year after a recent price increase. The fee you’re suggesting would be over 14 years worth of payments.
Amazon lets users remove ads on Kindle for a 1 time fee of $20, and people keep Kindles a long time.
The goodwill alone would be worth more than $20, considering iPhones already have margin (unlike most Amazon hardware).
Apple has been using security as the tent pole feature to try and differentiate themselves from everyone else. One of the reasons all the other platforms feel insecure is that ads imply data collection. If they really want to “think different” they need to stop following the crowd and operate a system that doesn’t create the compromised incentives that ads tend to come with.
They'd have to have an iron will to not do what every other leading platform has done, which is to:
- Gradually "make the line go up" by ramping up ad volume until the product is terrible (thereby ruining Apple's reputation among the 50-90% of users who aren't paying the ad-free prices).
- Periodically nerfing the premium ad-free tiers and putting ads into tiers that were previously ad-free.
- Purposefully making the lower tiers worse and worse in order to squeeze out marginal increases in conversion rates to the premium tiers.
> Under Cook’s leadership Apple has grown from a market capitalization of approximately $350 billion to $4 trillion, representing a more than 1,000% increase, and yearly revenue has nearly quadrupled, from $108 billion in fiscal year 2011 to more than $416 billion in fiscal year 2025.
Quite successful.
I also liked the part about growing the company while reducing its carbon footprint by more than 60%.
Even if that figure might somehow be inflated, it is impressive nonetheless.
It's probably an even bigger reduction considering their growth.
But it's still a net deficit of nearly 15 million tons of emissions of which practically none are offset.
https://www.apple.com/environment/pdf/Apple_Environmental_Pr...
Offsetting isn’t real. Buying a few trees doesn’t offset a factory full of trees that fills a river with poison.
Carbon offsetting is nothing to do with river pollution.
Carbon offsetting is risky. You plant a tree and you don’t know if it will die. You create a swampy area to absorb co2 and 10 years later it dries out due to global warming. Offsetting should be used if there is no other way to reduce emissions in the first place. Same is true for sucking carbon out of the air and storing it somewhere… it’s expensive and it should not be the default - we need offsetting and carbon segregation for the really unavoidable stuff
Sucking carbon out of the air using fully renewable energy (solar/wind) is a great thing to do! ... once we've fully decarbonized all other energy use and we have extra, left-over renewable energy.
Cool, but nothing to do with this conversation.
[dead]
This is what’s all bad with us stocks and completely disconnected with market value: Revenue jumped 4x but market capitalization got inflated to 12x.
Investors are forward-looking, though, so it just means that they think the future looks brighter than the immediate past.
The real disconnect IMO is TSLA.
Equities as large as Apple act as stores of value like gold, so it could just mean there's more money to be invested. You would need to compare Apple against what happened to the market in general.
The price over earnings (arguably an imperfect, but better way to compare stock prices against each other than using pure revenue) for Apple has been fluctuating within about a factor of 2 for the last 20 years. Since before the iPhone, people were nervous about the possibility of sustained growth of profits of the company, and the P/E was similar to today. Once Apple started making a lot more money under Tim Cook, the price was at a relative discount becauee 10 years ago people were certain (but wrong) that this run would end soon and badly. The long term stability under Cook was truly impressive. Lets see what the markets think abiut the leadership change tomorrow, but probably this is not an immediate event.
pe ratio under 10 in 2013 to ~40 in 2024. You can't deny the multiple expansion.
To be fair, a PE <10 didn't even represent the ground truth of customer's relationship to Apple at the time. In hindsight we have a lot more information, but in that era there was still a lingering question of whether their iPhone advantage was durable, due to Android competitors. It only later became apparent that the stickiness factor was super high.
From a correct pricing perspective, of all the companies in tech Apple seems one of the most likely to keep customers for a lifetime. They have immense lock-in and customer affinity. I don't know if the correct number is 20 or 30 or 40 but unless the economy completely tanks (which tbf is reasonably possible these days), I can only imagine a majority of their customers today will still be their customers in 15-20 years.
Some of that is debasement, but some of that is that there is no other brand like Apple.
Would you not own stock of the most valuable brand in human history?
It's not the brand - it's not like Apple's hit this valuation in isolation Meta, Nvidia, Google, Microsoft all enjoy similar.
It's the cash-money value of putting a fee on all digital goods and subscriptions and cash transactions in a world predisposed to forming and consolidating around monopolies. What does Apple's services revenue look like in another 20 years when Africa, China and India are paying their smartphone provider every time a dollar moves, a few billion more people paying one of two companies every time for their music, movies and tv, games, books, real-world transactions... in de-facto perpetuity.
Most valued brand, not the most valuable.
True, but also Apple is in a far more dominant position today.
Alongside Nvidia they essentially monopolize TSMCs entire latest generation chip supply.
That’s a moat in hardware that is going to get even stronger over time. Given this hardware moat they can dip their toes gently into the B2B market they’ve never really cared about and pick up another few hundred billion in high margin revenue over the next 10 years no problem.
I’ve always found it weird that Apple’s entire org runs on Mac but no other Fortune 500 company on earth does. Seems like an opportunity to nibble away at Microsoft.
You want to be careful about who your customers are, and what they will do to you as an organization. Enterprise customers create enterprise teams create enterprise culture creates enterprise rot. Apple is wise to play to their strategic position as a consumer product company that lives or dies on great product, because when the buyer is the user thats what they demand.
The real strategic risk for Apple is if it overly locks-in users and falls back into complacency. The discipline of having to continually win customers with better product is ultimately the only thing that will cause them to thrive long term.
Market cap should theoretically be determined by profit, interest rates minus liabilities (see legacy auto makers). Though it's future looking, so it might be higher or lower than a simple analyst estimation. Of course, this discount meme stocks (like TSLA) which are valued by the insanity of the crowd.
Yep. QE was a monumental mistake that killed economic mobility. Asset owners vs wage earners.
Do you think market cap should be proportional to revenue?
For the same period:
AMZN: +2100% META: +1700% MSFT: +1300% GOOG: +1400%
This is a specious comparison at best. Apple is, at heart, a hardware company. They have different growth profiles. A consumer hardware company getting that sort of growth is mind boggling.
Was meta a public company back then? Amazon, I think, was quite small, too.
You're right, Facebook didn't go public until May 2012, after the start of the period mentioned. Amazon went public in '97.
He destroyed my trust in Apple in ways that can't be put in numbers.
This growth comes from rent seeking. Greedy fees and lock-in they can sustain due to control of the platform and cultivated duopoly.
Apple narrative around security is patronising and deceptive, used as an excuse for removing users' freedoms (by not letting users replace Apple's services with competing ones Apple protects users from their bad choices). Very conveniently the supposedly most innovative company that is great at UX can't do better than Vista.
Apple's response to pro-consumer laws was petty, vindictive, malicious compliance.
To me Apple morphed from having premium products with excellent integration to having cross-product lock-in that maximizes money extraction from users.
And then there's Cook sucking up to Trump with a golden turd to protect next quarter's revenues. This showed that Cook had no principles more important than profit.
So much of what Apple has lost over the last 10 years is a lower bar for what counts as good enough.
You see this most obviously in software and marketing - the kinds of decisions where only a few people sign off at the end, and where "good enough" is whatever those few people decide it is. You see it less in hardware and procurement where there's a powerful review cycle and scrutiny at every level of the stack. Work there is more immediately measurable: benchmarks for performance, dollars for cost.
The "vibe" of software, or of a PDF [^1], is much harder to catch that way. There's no benchmark that flags it and most conventional executives aren't drilling down in that level of detail to see it either.
You want distributed decision-making, of course. But that only works well if it's distributed to people who've cultivated their own taste and who will make good calls under pressure. I'm not sure how much of that gets fixed by leadership change at the top. Taste isn't really something a CEO can decree into a 60,000 person org. But I've only heard good things about Ternus, so I'm optimistic. Fingers crossed for a bright new chapter.
[^1]: https://www.apple.com/promo/pdf/US_FY26_Earth_Day_Promo_Tand...
Is the loyalty represented by the golden trophy transferrable? Or is it tied to each CEO, like Applecare+?
As long as he goes by "John Apple" he should be ok - usually the bribe gets credited to the surname.
John Apple, great guy people say he's the best at computers, business I don't know.
> As executive chairman, Cook will assist with certain aspects of the company, including engaging with policymakers around the world.
It sounds like Cook will continue to get the dirty work of pleasing world leaders while Ternus can focus on actually running the company.
Basically. Tim is the ablative heat shield.
I believe these bribes/flatteries mostly confer a single-use benefit. Things like golden trophies seem to buy a victory in that moment, but they seem to have little relevance on decisions made even a month later, regardless of who gifted it and whether they're still at the helm.
I think you will have your answer if you consider which approach nets the recipient the larger number of golden tributes.
Depends if you want a FIFA Peace Prize or not.
I'm glad someone mentioned this.
Apple silicon has been an unmitigated success so it makes sense they’d go with Ternus. On a related note Apple needs to add Ternus to their spell check dictionary
Apple Silicon wasn’t under his purview, that would be Johny Srouji.
Not saying that Ternus wouldn’t have been involved in or part of the decision making process in moving the Mac to Apple-designed silicon, but I haven’t seen any indication he was any more involved than other execs at the company.
He also got promoted
they made a bet on EUV on better commercial terms than samsung and intel could do for themselves. another point of view is that TSMC's cost structure, of having highly educated, overworked, and wildly underpaid Taiwanese employees, is the real unmitigated success.
you could say apple silicon was almost 2 years ahead of its time, or you could say that intel lost years on bad bets. there are only 3 consumer-scale, leading node foundries in the world!
is apple a, "making good commercial terms with poor counterparties" company? yes, to their core. whether it is their employees whom they worked to the bone, their suppliers in the ASEAN trade network, or the US politicians who starkly are too broke to regulate giant US corporations, for whom too little money goes too long of a way.
my point is, who the hell knows! there are many, many points of view. it's not any one thing. but one thing's for sure, i don't think i'm upgrading my phone until it blows up anymore, and this is the simple, greatest risk to their business.
so they're going to become a company that breaks phones to get people to replace them, regardless of what they are today :)
Ternus had essentially nothing to do with Apple silicon. That's all Srouji and his team.
I commend Apple for hiring someone internally...someone who climbed up the ranks and understands the DNA of the company.
Also think it's cool that John Ternus has only a bachelor's degree with a very down to earth presence. I completely dig his LI page being really bare bones.
I suspect Apple is about to experience another Renaissance era...
> only a bachelor's degree
That people are still judging someone by their school performance (or, less charitably but how I experienced the difference between "poor" and "good" students in about half of the cases: their willingness to deal with arbitrarily set requirements) after being in the workforce for this long says a lot about society. I'm not sure it's a factor when one is comparing devices in a store, which ultimately is what they created right? Shouldn't we judge them by their work?
Also considering this is HN
> Hackers should be judged by their hacking, not bogus criteria such as degrees, age, race, or position. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hacker_culture
I assume they mean "good that Apple's new CEO doesn't have an MBA".
Plus his degree is in mechanical engineering. I wonder how he climbed up the ranks of hardware engineering with a degree in mechanical engineering. Quite amazing.
> I wonder how he climbed up the ranks of hardware engineering with a degree in mechanical engineering. Quite amazing.
Given the level of mathematics I’ve seen involved in hardware, I’d assume the average mech eng. has a better chance than the average software eng.
What would mathematics have to do with internal company politics, a soft/people skill demanding job?
People skills are primarily learned through observation, interaction, and modeling the behavior of others who have already have cultivated social skills. You know, from being around and interacting with people. It's not like studying a certain discipline, such a mathematics, forbids you from ever cultivating these abilities.
Mech E. on the other hand, is perhaps the broadest engineering discipline in terms of foundational principles, application variety, and transferable skills. So shouldn't be all that surprising when it comes to hardware engineering.
In the context of a tech CEO, any degree past a bachelor's has very, very little relevance in the real world.
"Only a bachelor's" is a ridiculous comment, and incredibly out of touch.
15 years of supply chain excellence and the software running on that hardware quietly got worse every cycle. the m1 transition was so clean it made everyone else look like they were guessing. ternus thinks in tolerances and thermal envelopes - giving the keys to someone who's already pulled off the hardest platform migration in apple's recent history seems right.
The m1 transition was clean, and the hardware is amazing, don't get me wrong (I just bought a neo and I'm very happy with it). But the transition did look even more amazing than it should have because of just how dogshit Intel macs had gotten, especially around thermal throttling. Apple could have built much nicer systems on Intel already had they just made them slightly thicker and used sensible heatsink and fan designs for the hardware they were putting in them.
(We're seeing echoes of that again now where you can get 20-30% performance bumps in Neos and Airs just by sticking a thermal pad on the CPU - Apple is still allergic to cooling, they've just built amazingly efficient hardware that sidesteps the problem)
To make the M1 transition so clean took a lot of software excellence...one can argue Apple's compiler / virtualization / software languages team is the best in the industry (grumbling from Swift UI developers aside...)
They’ve done a few impressive things also, remember that time they converted the root filesystem on every ios device on the fly with a point release? Kudos to whoever clicked that particular button I’d have bricked it personally ;)
Off topic, but it’s amusing to see that 3/8 Apple CEOs were Mike, 2/8 were John, and the rest are Steve, Tim, and Gil.
Apple is obsessed with minimalism so much that they refuse to hire any CEOs with first names longer than a single syllable.
Cook is known to be monk-like, so the relative quiet of this announcement is no surprise. Hopefully Ternus takes some risks and revisits some things from scratch (the OS layer)[0] rather than continuing down the path of more service add-ons that Cook seemed to be excitedly geared up for. Personally, it's worth noting that Ternus did -not- directly oversee the Vision Pro, which is encouraging.
[0] As Steve Jobs said in 2005: "OS X is the most advanced operating system on the planet and it has set Apple up for the next 20 years."
How incredibly prophetic that 21 years later, MacOS is suddenly showing its age.
I don’t know if I would go so far as to say “monk-like”. He’s a college football die-hard. But he is a very chill dude.
I wish more tech execs were in Cook’s mold. Reserved. Controlled. Calm. No Twitter beefs, no overt politics, no blow-ups behind closed doors.
> no overt politics
Excuse me? Giving a literal gold trophy to the God-Emperor Trump is not politics?
That's like saying going to Washington DC at all is "politics."
It'd be bad business stewardship if he didn't; bad for shareholders, ultimately.
It looks silly optically, but it's plain to see that Apple has trump nailed psychologically. And it worked! They knew what was needed to get an administration to support the company in meaningful ways.
May we do better on the next election.
No, it's just a business tax. Do you see Cook getting on twitter and parroting the god emperor's topic of the day?
I saw Cook going to the private screening of the Melania biopic on the same day Alex Pretti was killed.
It's not a tax, Tim Apple gave him the gold personally, with cameras in tow, he did not submit the ACH data to the IRS.
It's bending the knee.
Why degrade himself, what can Trump do that their trillions cannot cushion?
Same difference. "I spent millions/billions that could have been avoided because I did not want to appear to degrade myself" doesn't sell very well to stakeholders. The CEO should do what is in the best interests of the company, and in the US when Mr Trump is president, it is in the best interests of the company to bend the knee.
So you think he is a Trump supporter, then? I would have guessed precisely the opposite. My assumption is that the trophy was his way of looking out for the best interests of Apple. In that regard probably a fairly good ROI.
> So you think he is a Trump supporter, then?
He literally gave him a gold trophy! How is that not support? It's beyond compliance in advance.
To a president hell-bent on overturning Obergefell v Hodges, even.
He gave him more gold than Maria Corina Machado.
A bribe
>Cook is known to be monk-like
How so? Genuinely curious, I've got no idea what he's like as a person.
>"I've got no idea what he's like as a person"
Case in point? From what I've read he's reserved, keeps a very low profile, and is dedicated to his work. We know next to nothing about his personal life.
He reportedly had to essentially be dragged into a new home, as he was still staying in a small apartment nearby the HQ even after Jobs passed away. Dude just didn't give a shit about anything but Apple.
linux and windows are older.
and mac has ios, which with ipads goes desktopy. (capability based security)
Right. We're not still running Windows Vista, or RedHat. Time for a rethink.
Is this a reward for a job well-done? Because apple hardware for the last 5-years has been amazing. The software though has sucked - will it be more years of amazing hardware and shit software? In other words focusing on developers, especially of llm software? I'm fine with that. Maybe we'll get rack-mountable apple ai servers (joking - apple servers were great and lasted a decade+ but went nowhere)
Yeah, what's going on? I'm confused by this choice - I would have expected a marketer. Maybe they really are doubling down on hardware for the ai age?
I hope Ternus can turn this ship. Apple wasted the last 5 years without any significant innovation/revolution or even without significant evolution. No groundbreaking change from iphone 12 pro in current iphone 17 pro.
Before we had many groundbreaking features that redefined how you use smarphone:
- gps
- flashlight (yes everybody with flashlight in the pocket!)
- front selfie camera + video calls
- compass + accelerometer + gyroscope
- good wide and ultrawide (video) camera
- nfc + apple pay
- fingerprint / faceid
- esim
- magsafe
Now you can have iphone 12 pro and don't miss much from iphone 17 pro.
Every time I see this argument, it comes across as lazy. iPhone (and smartphones in general) are a mature product, so of course it'll be iterative. But you can't compare the camera from the first few iPhones to the latest ones. I certainly didn't expect, when the first iPhone launched, that the camera on an iPhone would replace my dedicated camera for 90% of my use cases.
You make a good point, but at the same time, things are a bit stale if you look outside the Apple and Samsung bubbles.
For example, a Vivo X300 Ultra or Xiaomi 17 Ultra. Much better cameras, larger batteries, 90-100W charging, etc.
Those examples are still iterative.
OP is alluding to the fact that Apple hasn't created industry changing categories like the iPhone.
OP also complained about the "lack of significant evolution", that's why I gave those examples.
Like the brands I've mentioned, Apple buys their camera sensors (from Sony), battery, and display. And yet they don't have the best camera sensors, the newer higher capacity batteries, the latest display tech, etc.
You can go 2 or 3 iterations before seeing a real improvement, and it's not always because better tech doesn't exist. They're just not pushing hard.
Shipping hundreds of millions of new phones every year isn't pushing hard while earning billions? Near every single company in the world would die to have Apple's balance sheet.
Apple Silicon in the past 5 years has trounced every single market player. Apple has to make decisions on things like sensors based on the supplier being able to deliver hundreds of millions annually -- by the time we see the hardware it was baked and locked in over 12 months ago.
In the areas I specifically mentioned? No, they don't push that hard.
Apple introduced 48MP camera sensors many years after they became available. For the past 2 or 3 years, there have been devices with much better cameras, but again, they're not iPhones. Some phones have been charging at peak 40-100W for a while, so when you look at Apple's 30-40W, it's not that impressive, is it? In a year or so they may release a foldable phone, but Samsung is already on the 7th iteration of the Fold. And so on.
It doesn't make their SoCs less impressive (typing this on a M4 Mac!) or the shipping of so many devices a lesser feat, but Apple is very conservative with iPhones, and that's very apparent when you look at all phones out there.
I think you're looking far too narrowly at technology if you view it only through the lens of a smartphone.
> iPhone (and smartphones in general) are a mature product, so of course it'll be iterative.
That's the kind of thing people say when they are out of ideas. The reality is that the mobile phone market was already a mature market, with Nokia as the leader, even before the iPhone was released. Then Steve Jobs showed the world how to innovate.
Don't forget about the Apple Car. 100% of that failed, and Tim spent a decade on it. Quite a bit of attention on here, but it seems we've quickly forgotten all about it since it was never seen.
https://hn.algolia.com/?q=apple+car
Apple was wise to get out of the EV business. It's very expensive in terms of factories, regulation etc and not very profitable. They had no first mover advantage, government backing or legacy advantage.
What's the best case scenario? Make few billion a year fuzzed with long term warranty liabilities? That might sound nice, but for apple their companion products like AirPods or the Apple Watch easily clear much better profit. Putting their corporate effort into another companion product is more economically sensible and far less risky.
Maybe this is reductive but I always suspected the car project was a Jony Ive indulgence.
In the years after Jobs' death, Ive was pampered as many people attributed Apple's vision and taste to Jobs #1 and Ive #2. Losing both would've trashed the stock and Apple's reputation at that time.
Ive loves watches and cars. Despite launching the Apple Watch with a $10k+ gold version and a heavy fashion emphasis (another Ive indulgence), it fortunately became a viable product but more due to the health and fitness features.
I just don't think Apple goes down the car path without Ive at his most outsized influence at that time. But Ive wanted to put his mark on the automobile.
Now he's doing it for Ferrari but in a much more traditional sense. Buttons and switches instead of entirely touchscreen, human drivers and not driverless, etc.
Really sucks we never got to see any of the prototypes or designs they built for it.
Absolutely! At the very minimum, an Apple EVSE would have been a shippable product. But no, Tim couldn't even get that after 10 years, thousands of dedicated employees, and hundreds of millions of dollars spent.
I forgot all about the Apple car when assessing Tim's legacy, too.
I guess if you are gonna fail, fail so deeply that it doesn't affect your legacy :P
Apple spent $1 billion over 10 years doing the ground work to see whether or not they wanted to get into making a car and that’s a problem?
Google is gonna spend between February and December 2026 $185 billion on their AI technology, and how much has Microsoft spent somewhere near 100 billion dollars or how about OpenAI (we don’t know yet) but that number will be my numbing or Meta which is some where in the $80 billion mark.
Tim Cook has nothing to worry about Apple didn’t squander billions of dollars they put the money where they should’ve put it in Apple Silicon and everything else they do well.
Google got a $1 billion refund and OpenAI got nothing. I’m sure Sam thought when he went into the meeting with Tim Cook that he was gonna come out with $50 billion and he came out with zip. Apple made the right choice.
Looking at the state of EVs nowadays, I'd say Apple dodged a huge bullet. EV is no special without self-driving and also batteries literally become trash after a few years.
EV batteries do not become "trash" after a few years.
What about Apple Silicon?
Its been more than 5 years since the M1 came out in Nov 2020
yes they innovated with apple sillicon but I would say it only shines in macOS environment. On iOS / iPadOS it's completely untapped - like having ferrari with only gravel roads around.
The level of power in the iPad, and the level of underutilization of that power due to it being handicapped by the OS is mindboggling to me. Although to some extent it makes sense - with Apple owning the whole supply chain it probably wouldn't actually save them much money to make a less powerful chip just to put in it, and they need selling points for the top end models.
>ferrari with only gravel roads around
sounds like a ton of fun to me. Just sending it rally-style everywhere :)
a better comparison is buying a Ferrari to drive around your town at 40 km/h
And yet it is the best tablet you can buy on the planet top to bottom software and hardware, is it perfect no, what is this phantom alternative to an iPad M4 Pro? Note I already have a desktop computer. I don’t need two of the same thing in short I don’t need Mac OS on two devices.
Believe it or not, more than five years ago.
> I hope Ternus can turn this ship. Apple wasted the last 5 years without any significant innovation/revolution or even without significant evolution. No groundbreaking change from iphone 12 pro in current iphone 17 pro.
I daresay the iPhone 17 Pro is a compelling enough upgrade, hardware wise. Not much innovation, but their phone hardware is very usable.
But I'd prefer if Apple gave up 2 years of trying to "innovate" nonsense like Liquid glAss and polish up their software first, just like the old days.
I think the satellite connectivity is a pretty big deal and iPhone led with that. Also camera control literally changed how I use the phone.
For anyone else wondering what this means:
> lets you quickly open your iPhone camera and access common camera settings *points at button* (https://support.apple.com/guide/iphone/use-the-camera-contro...)
The way you phrased it about changing how you use a phone, I was expecting you control a lot of the phone via the camera somehow (gestures?) and don't need to bother with the pesky touchscreen. But okay no it's just the camera button that has been on cameras and other phones since time immemorial
My washing machine still only washes clothes!
The Vision Pro was a big bet that failed. But they tried.
The satellite message thing?
John Ternus really did turn the Mac around. The last 5 or so years of the Intel era were a disaster. Hopefully he will be able to turn things around with software too.
Yeah and with long development, lead and change horizons that come with hardware, that's a super hard thing to do.
Software is easier given the shorter cycles. Caveat is, the shorter cycles also benefit competitors.
One of the reasons software is harder is that people think it's easier.
Maybe, but I think we have to wait for Craig Federighi to leave first.
I think it's interesting that the handoff will be complete on Sept 1. That would mean Ternus will helm his first iPhone launch that month. Auspicious timing. Curious the math they calculated when landing on this date. Certainly tees him up for an early win if the products are well-received.
Tim's departure announcement is timed between product announcements. Although, not a surprise to anyone
As for Ternus' timing:
A)Not very Apple to have the CEO do one last launch while on the way out the door (want the full throated, 1000% commitment in execs)
B)Gives John stage for first time as CEO at September Keynote (historically a BFD)
C)It felt right, among all the other time-slots and factors to consider
D)John gets to announce the next One More Thing, and own it. Would be odd for Tim to announce the One More Thing and then resign.
One more thing: See ya suckers! I'm outta here.
My guess is that they'll release something impressive in September, and they want to give Ternus an early win as you said. Maybe a new completely product or Vision Air.
iPhone Ultra.
Another iPhone mini...
Apples first foldable phone. It will be a huge success.
I have been wanting this for Apple for a while. They are very “boring” when it comes to risk and pushing forward the way Steve Jobs did. I really think they have a lot of potential they are missing out on.
I still hope they eventually sell server blades for macOS.
> They are very “boring” when it comes to risk
The main problems regular people have when it comes to their phones/macs today isn't that they're boring, it's that the software is buggy and inconsistent, and generally just seems a disservice to the otherwise industry leading hardware.
I'd rather they fix that first than cater to the hardware enthusiasts yearning for some breakthrough new-paradigm design.
Xserve was their big explicit enterprise push. Blades as a whole ended up as something of a niche. Hyperconverged is probably where we've ended up from there for the most part but it's not a big slice of the market.
Apple's big win was that consumer basically became enterprise. There was lots of noise around formal BYOD but in many/most places it just happened whether IT was on-board or not.
Apple stock grew 2322.5% during Tim Cook's tenure from 08/24/2011 to 04/20/2026. CAGR approximately 24.29% per annum. Pretty incredible.
To steal from Twitter:
"Tim Cook took Apple from $350B to $4T"
So? That's a 11X market cap increase. In the same time, MSFT saw a 14X increase, Google saw a 20X increase, Amazon did 28X, Facebook did 35X. We're not even going to talk about NVidia.
Cook led Apple through a period where every tech company expanded. Yay for him?
(It keeps going at https://x.com/politicalmath/status/2046428057255211032 )
How many companies on that list make money by manufacturing a physical product and selling it to customers? How many other consumer goods companies 11x their market cap? How many other consumer goods companies have revenues remotely approaching Apple?
The business you mention are pure service / zero marginal cost businesses, and in that time internet usage has expanded both in reach and depth (it is being used for more things in more places), so their opportunity for profits has grown. Apple turns aluminium and silica into a laptop. They didn't even miss a beat during COVID.
Yay for Tim Cook for scaling this to the absolute behemoth of supply chain and manufacturing that modern Apple is.
You are cherry picking here - Why not include Intel, Samsung, Sony, HP or Dell etc on your list? Why include Facebook but not Twitter?
We are talking about the third largest company in the world by market cap - growing an additional 3X isn't particularly feasible (that would have made them twice the size of the next largest company).
Particularly with the hardware category it's easier to drop the ball and fumble rather than stay on top - just see Nokia or Rim.
All the printed money got accumulated to the MAGIC 7. The rest of the Fortune 500 are flat.
Pretty easy when you just buy back your own stock with all your profit like Warren Buffet told you to. Incredible.
It’s that easy folks. Just buy back your own stock and you print money and success. That’s all it takes.
Especially after you inherit a company from Steve Jobs right after the iPhone came out lol
It is very hard to evaluate Apple as a single entity. Certain branches of the company did great in the latest 10 years: the chips division being the most obvious one but in general hardware did well. Software received a lot less love, and in general deteriorated, but the really terrible performance was the products division. Then there is the horror story of Apple software stores and services.
Apple is held to a different standard. Tahoe is bad because it's ugly and has inconsistent corner radii. Meanwhile Windows has multiple critical issues e.g. Windows update induced instability.
Apple's hardware and silicon divisions are considered good not because they're competitive, but because they're uncompetitive. They keep cranking out products that far surpass their competitors. Apple is reduced to announcing the fastest CPU core in the world in a press release spec bump, every year.
Even if Tahoe is a regression from the high bar Apple set with Sequoia, it's still the best OS for regular people (sorry Linux but you know it's true). Apple's software is bad because it's merely best-in-class and not light years ahead.
Tim Cook’s experience in logistics built Apple into the global hegemon it is today. I hope John Ternus’s experience with hardware can kick off a renaissance in both Apple hardware and software design. Mind you, Apple hardware is already amazing, but hopefully it can be even better with Ternus at the helm. Apple software is terrible, and hopefully Ternus can turn that around. I’m also hoping, without any evidence, that maybe a change in leadership will change how Apple participates in US politics.
EDIT: I also want to say I really appreciate Tim Cook’s emphasis on user privacy and I hope John Ternus can continue this trend.
I too deeply appreciate the commitment to user privacy they've demonstrated. Their head of user privacy is a man of integrity and commitment.
At the same time, privacy on internet-connected devices is like true liberty and justice -- rare, precious, fragile, and easily lost without active pursuit and sacrifice.
I hope Temus has the courage and principle to keep fighting the good fight.
Curious as an outsider what you mean with US politics? Seems like Apple has a pretty strong stance when it comes to things like privacy that pushes back on some things (that could be smoke and mirrors though I guess).
The privacy is more of a market position thing than it is a political thing.
Apple has led the industry on hardware but is woefully behind on the software and services front. Focusing on device-level privacy controls turns what would be a gap into a moat, and it helps deprive Google and other services from monetizing their customer base.
Not to say that it's not something the company is passionate about - but it's also good for their business. Especially when you compare it to things like human rights, transparency, and security research where Apple could take a stronger stand but don't.
> The privacy is more of a market position thing than it is a political thing.
It is a market position, but companies do have some choice in which market positions they choose to take. And I wouldn't underestimate the effect of the personal views of the CEO in that.
> and it helps deprive Google and other services from monetizing their customer base.
The payment Apple gets from Google for being the default search might help explain this. It would be hard to turn down the sums Apple gets.
https://9to5mac.com/2025/09/03/just-one-word-in-the-google-a...
If you’re referring to their AI services being ‘woefully behind’, that’s just a market sector that they’ve chosen not to focus too much effort on. That was a sensible gamble too, given how unpredictable that sector is five years after it was released.
I’m not sure what else they are behind on frankly, as their current offerings have been extremely stable from day dot.
How many products has Google released and killed in the past 20 years? Apple managed to land on a good thing with Apple iTunes and iPhotos in the early oughts, and managed to transition those core services into Apple Music and iCloud with little to no disruption to users. iCloud is generally a pretty predictable service that delivers on a core set of user requirements very well.
Also, thief productivity suite isn’t meant to completely replace Office, and for a free package, it meets many users needs perfectly fine.
> That was a sensible gamble too, given how unpredictable that sector is five years after it was released.
Define sensible. Apple's B2C margins are peanuts compared to what Nvidia's commanding right now, and they're both ARM retailers competing for the same cutting-edge fab space.
>but is woefully behind on the software
iOS is ahead on software security compared to Android, Windows, Desktop Linux, etc.
https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2023/12/apple-admits-to-...
I am referring to things like an app being able to escape the sandbox and potentially further escalate privileges.
Are you referring to any security features in particular? There's a new zero-click exploit every 6 months for iOS, and NSO Group is showing no signs of slowing.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43003230
A hardware vulnerability is separate from how good Apple has been at hardening the Os against attackers.
Start here: https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2025/08/07/tim-...
If you think Ternus wouldn't do it, you are in for a bad time.
Well, I hope I'm not, but yes, I will be quite disappointed if so.
Apple is a multi-trillion dollar public company.
It would be unusual for a leader of such a thing not act in accordance w/ shareholders' best interests, as well to defy likely board guidance.
“Capitulating to the current regime on everything is in shareholder’s best interests” is neither a foregone conclusion nor a statement of fact. It’s economic myopia at best.
Let me be clear - I'm not happy about it. But ignoring such a reality reminds me of that quote comparing Job's best friend to a lawnmower.
That said, I'd love to enlightened to how it's myopic, or rather, what course(s) of action you would take, keeping in mind that Apple is a multi-trillion dollar public company.
I’m telling you that thinking a->b is myopic. It could be that shareholder value would’ve been higher had Tim Cook told Trump (or Biden, or Trump, or Obama) to go fuck himself. Perhaps the people who spend money on iPhones, specifically, would’ve been more inclined to buy a new iProduct, than they are now that he’s bent the knee.
Myopia is thinking “well he did it so it must have been good”. There are myriad other things he could’ve done, that have a strong argument towards higher shareholder value.
Edit to add: Think TSLA, if you want a concrete example. If that stock was at all trading on fundamentals (and if they had a remotely capable or competent board) and not Magic Memes, Musk’s hard right pivot was inarguably bad for the brand and shareholder value, even if it made the President temporarily happy.
Counterfactuals are weak opinion, at best.
Given that Apple is doing well, the onus is on someone claiming that Apple would have done better, having a strong argument.
Not "could" have done better, because things could obviously have gone better, worse, or anything else, given any substantive or random difference. Could means nothing.
(And I say this as someone very disappointed with how Cook handled that.)
> Counterfactuals are weak opinion, at best.
Ah, "If you can't definitively and completely prove a negative then you're wrong (but also I'm like, totally not carrying water for those people)" is definitely not a weak opinion, though.
That said, maybe you should read the discussion a bit more carefully before jumping in with "OMG PROOOOOOF" or whatever the fuck this was supposed to be? The entire, plain English discussion, revolved around one thing not being the only possible "fact" just because it happened. None of the posts were particularly long, and none used challenging words.
My point isn’t that anyone’s view is wrong. I can’t make that claim either.
I hate what Cook did.
I would be happy and open to anyone who can point out how Apple was supposed to handle the actual threat of major tariffs in their components and systems better than he did.
But simply asserting a counter factual, a plausible way it might have been better, isn’t that. What would Cook be expected to do with that?
But what?
Not dismissing that there was a better way. There must be. It’s very worthwhile figuring out, even as a counter factual. That’s how we all learn.l
Not judging anyone. My answer is just or even more weak! I have really thought about this too, and come up with nothing so far.
(I appreciate and take note that my comment didn’t communicate my point well enough. It’s important to recognize weak reasoning. But that wasn’t meant to discourage, or show a lack of respect for another person’s efforts. I want a better answer too.)
I’d rather hear from someone suggesting, counterfactually, that they would have done worse had they not capitulated. What’s that argument like?
You want motivated reasoning?
It’s not clear what you are saying, other than what you want to hear.
> Myopia is thinking “well he did it so it must have been good”.
You're writing words that I did not say or imply.
The point is going against any (current) admin is almost always bad for a publicly traded company. Any public entity is going to have to have extremely good reasons to "fight back", how doing so is good for business. As a CEO of such an entity you're having to answer to many people who want a concrete plan and a belief in your strategy.
In the first rodeo, when all this was novel, it was believed such social signaling would pay off. Obviously silicon valley as a whole no longer feels this way.
TSLA is an outlier being grounded more on some superior man theory, that Apple did have in the past w/ Jobs, who is no longer there. Religious fervor stuff. It doesn't really apply. Rational moves here, please.
> There are myriad other things he could’ve done, that have a strong argument towards higher shareholder value
This is what I asked you to expound on. Please state a few.
Most shareholders may not care beyond the next quarter, but CEO action that led to those results were made couple of years ago at least, and current action will do as much to determine not the next quarter, but one slightly further in the future. Hence Jamie Dimon, for example, making a different decision in a similar matter. As Dimon explained: “[…] we have to be very careful about how anything is perceived, and also how the next DOJ is going to deal with it. So, we’re quite conscious of risks we bear by doing anything that looks like buying favors or anything like that”[1].
---
[1] https://www.cnn.com/2025/11/05/business/video/jp-morgan-chas...
Wouldn’t Ternus have had a hand in the Apple Silicon backdoor?
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43003230
Unlikely and it also doesn’t really seem like a backdoor
My condolences in advance
It's less than the other tech CEOs who seem to evade criticism on HN. Elon literally worked for Trump, accomplished nothing, and ended up just leaking everyone's social security data. Thiel and Palantir are profiting from war and building out the surveillance state. Bezos made a $75M documentary about Melania. Larry Ellison took over TikTok US to squelch any criticism of US and Zionist war atrocities.
Depending on who you talk to, this could go either way. Some people want big companies to champion their own political ideals on a larger stage and think Apple should do more. Others would say Apple should stay out of it, after things like their gift to Trump[0], for example.
[0] https://www.theverge.com/news/737757/apple-president-donald-...
you mean offering gold bribes to the president along with $$$ to the prez inauguration to curry regulatory favor?
#appletoo
Tapping a hardware guy as CEO sends a good signal, at least to me, looking in from the outside. The company is leading from its strength, and getting back to its roots. I wonder how Woz feels today, seeing this.
But somewhere in the mix, Apple could also really use another great product mind, like the other Steve. It has been too long since the last era-defining product from Cupertino.
I have no idea what that next big thing would be. And of course, a bad product mind in charge is worse than none at all! If the next big leaps come from other companies while Apple just keeps doing what it does best in the hardware categories that it already dominates, then I guess that's fine, too.
Chairman Cook was a hardware guy, and is why apple's hardware is excellent.
This just suggests him holding on to more influence. What apple needs, badly, is a software and tech guy (Cook is not a tech guy).
If they are going to tap a HW guy as CEO, the next big thing should be giving exec comp and positions to every member of the Asahi Linux team, and putting them in charge of SW at Apple.
No don’t waste any time on Linux, Apple memory independence, clustering and moving on to M5, M6, M7, and beyond, a technocrat in charge yes, hopefully Apple will continue to iterate across the software ecosystems and the hardware systems.
Official support for alternative OSes would be nice, but no reason to throw everything out to make that happen.
I wasn’t arguing everything be thrown out, just that a competent group be put in charge, and also that they open the HW up so there is competition on the SW side.
If you put third party support under macos leadership or next to it on the org chart, it’d be systematically sabotaged to death. That org hasn’t delivered anything useful in a decade (“useful” == “a user might notice and care”), so there’s no evidence current leadership could ship leadshot from a wet paper bag, even if they wanted to.
Also, they’d nearly double their laptop share overnight if they did this, and it’d cost them 10-20 FTEs.
You think that officially supporting Asahi linux would double their laptop share?
The shareholders expect more profits. So no, the only way is ads and fees on the best sellers.
If they can make 50B from ads in the iPhone in 12 months why invent a new device that will make pennies.
Sorry folks, the math is brutal for the big corps. They cannot pivot and make cool things, the market demands to be milked until they bleed.
Pennies? Their devices have famously high margins.
[flagged]
Cook was a steward of Apple as an offshored manufacturing behemoth. I'm looking forward to where this reset goes. Hopefully better and American made products.
The privacy focus is why Apple is dominant today, keep that up.
So you're looking forward to a $2000 iPhone 18e?
Pricing is based on customer value and restriction of customer options.
If we're paying $1000 for a Chinese phone that we'd pay $2000 for, we'll end up paying that price when the manufacturers have finally starved the professional capability to compete from the rest of the world. As we get closer to that point, the urgency to onshore is increasing.
Exploitation when we can get away with it is in our social nature as humans. So this isn't about the Chinese, or any other culture. It's just necessary for this to be onshored because it's critical.
> we'll end up paying that price when the manufacturers have finally starved the professional capability to compete from the rest of the world
What does this look like, in practice? Once China and India and Vietnam "starve the professional capability to compete" (presumably in the manufacture of smart phones) from the US, what would actually change and why?
This would be a world where the top talent and training capability for that talent lives there. Our universities would have deteriorated, our professional class at this top level would have died off or relocated over there. Probably an example I can think of is the once great textile industry of Britain that is now in Asia.
If I never had to replace it again, I wouldn't mind that price.
Curious what drove you to replace previous ones?
I can only speak to corporate use, but the most common issues I saw were battery life, charging port issues, and speaker failures, in that order. I managed about 1200 for about 2 years and I'd get 1-3 of those issues a week. I'd say 25% of the time it required a replacement. Average age 2.5 years.
That’s repairable for cheaper that buying a new one, isn’t it? Perhaps the rationale is that it’s cheaper because the resell price offset the repair price?
Yeah you get a few bucks back from recyclers or your carrier but also having to inventory phones and track them is a pain in the ass and requires staff to manage. Much easier to just toss it and send em a new one next day.
> Hopefully better and American made products.
"Expensive for no good reason" products?
The less companies “participate in US politics”, the better for all involved
My guess is that Cook will continue to handle some of the hairier political situations, letting Ternus focus on Apple itself.
For all the faults of these companies, their founders and CEOs, I genuinely believe the world would have been a bit of a sadder place without companies like Apple and Google. That’s not something I can say about most companies (Microsoft), and honestly, there are companies I think the world would be better off without entirely (Oracle).
The user privacy can’t be overstressed. It and a sane release cycle are what keeps me on Apple.
it means nothing when the UX is hot garbage
I spend my entire day in VSCode and Chrome. Who actually interacts with the built-in OS UI anymore?
> Apple software is terrible
When is the last time you used Windows 11? I begrudgingly have to run it on my gaming PC and almost every time it's a frustrating experience where I want to put my fist through my monitor. Absolutely awful, zero taste, that will-do software. Windows explorer I believe is still single threaded, the integration of OneDrive into everything (my desktop is stored in OneDrive for some reason) with little to no way to undo it. Don't even get me started on Copilot. My blood pressure just rose off the charts.
> this spoiled cheese tastes terrible
> when’s the last time you tried spoiled milk then?
There are still levels below “terrible”
FTA:
> As executive chairman, Cook will assist with certain aspects of the company, including engaging with policymakers around the world.
This gives me the impression that at least for the near-term, Cook will still be the one groveling to the Trump White House. Whatever you think about that, that's probably helpful for Ternus' dealings with the next administration.
The big bucks are for simultaneously groveling to Trump and China’s leaders. China usually makes or breaks the quarterly numbers after all.
> Apple hardware is already amazing
Apple also made some amazing hardware blunders.
My personal favorite is the force-touch home button on the previous generation iPhones and iPads wouldn't work if you were wearing a band-aid. I don't mean the fingerprint reader, it wouldn't even click. So don't ever cut yourself if you were planning to unlock your phone ever. It added basically nothing for the end user over the previous physical home button besides rendering the vibrate function wimpy and useless.
Home button issues were one of the most common hardware problems on iPhones <7. The haptic button evaporated an entire class of critical failures, hardly a blunder.
Don't forget that to shut down an iPhone, you need to remember the secret button combination. Of course holding the power button down doesn't shut it off. Why would it? That's just a standard held by EVERY OTHER ELECTRONIC DEVICE IN EXISTENCE.
Man, I love Apple, but their stupidity is beyond baffling sometimes. No Siri updates for 10 years, making the hardware harder to use, single-handed use is no longer as easy or comfortable, and they haven't done... anything(?) revolutionary in AGES. Their latest gaff was the Neo - a phone stretched out as much as possible to make a "laptop". They couldn't even bother to make the logo shiny on it, it was such a departure from true Apple style. Let's not forget the 92 lenses on the back of the phone that stick out a quarter inch, a screen that's nearly impossible to replace, and the hilariously pathetic "iphone repair kit" they lend you.
I have zero confidence in this guy. Nothing he had oversight over has gone well, as far as I'm concerned.
I admire how Tim Cook participates in US politics. He is doing the most while giving the least. I would do the same in his position, he is making the best of a difficult situation, and it is his duty to protect his company and employees.
Giving a golden statue of Trump has no effect on you and me, and a very large effect on Trump. He is gaining significant political capital while giving up nothing that matters (feel free to correct if I am wrong). Contrast with every other tech executive, lawyer, and university dean in America, most of whom have been cowed into compromising on their deepest values, or even worse, have done so without hesitation. I cannot think of many tech execs whom history will be kinder towards.
I'd be careful normalizing bribery. It's very micro-efficient, almost definitionally, but the macro effects of normalized bribery are well known and not good.
Bribery is the actual normal function of US politics. That’s what lobbying really amounts to.
The USA has the best government that money can buy.
Until you get fascism or welfare reforms, hopefully you aren't on the chopping block by then.
To be clear, I am not saying this is a good state affairs; merely that it is the normal operating procedure for the USA.
Classic is ought fallacy
> Giving a golden statue of Trump has no effect on you and me, and a very large effect on Trump.
Bribery hurts everyone else following the law. It erodes public trust. All of us are definitely hurt by Trump's extreme and obvious levels of corruption.
I agree, but I'm taking as an axiom that some amount of bribery (tribute, really) had to be done, that Apple could avoid massive government retribution. In that lens, this bribery, while bad, is the least destructive form it could have taken. It being so gaudy actually helps this case.
> I'm taking as an axiom that some amount of bribery (tribute, really) had to be done
It didn't.
> In that lens, this bribery, while bad, is the least destructive form it could have taken.
Its not.
> It being so gaudy actually helps this case.
It doesn't.
Normalizing corruption to this level is a bad thing. Period.
The people engaging in this should be in prison. Including Trump.
> Giving a golden statue of Trump has no effect on you and me, and a very large effect on Trump.
No effect on you, really. You aren’t affected by gas prices or tariffs? They are bowing down and participating in Trump’s patronage schemes. Every powerful person who does this is complicit with all the horrible things done by the Trump administration. They are endorsing Trump and his ilk with their behavior if not their words, which allows and encourages him to continue his fraud and abuse.
Trump is the president. People voted him into the Office. Tim Cook didn't give him the golden statue before he is in the Office.
Everyone in the United States is complicit to the horrible things done by the Trump administration by your logic. I partially agree, but I also think burning Apple to the ground will not be Tim Cook's legacy and he is in no place to go against the executive branch.
It is not about Trump, it is about the corrupted executive branch. Tim didn't do any crime against humanity in his act.
No, before Trump 2 nobody would’ve taken bribes and gifts so openly like this. It’s not even in the same league and it’s some really self-serving argumentation to pretend otherwise.
Every complicity is another nail in the coffin of our democracy.
Nor does the cop who demands $100 for letting you go without arresting you.
But they're still responsible for their own personal piece of the rot in the system.
Is Tim the cop or the motorist in this example?
If a cop says your problems go away for $100, you pay it, because the downside is huge by comparison. The problem is the cop getting away with it, not that you paid the bribe.
I hope you’re not comparing a gold trophy to a straight up bribe. It’s like giving Trump your Noble peace prize.
Having the prize doesn’t make you the winner. But it feeds Trumps ego sooooooo muuuuuch, it’s probably the “best” thing you can do to get on his good side without actually giving him anything.
Cook stood up to the FBI. He could have stood up to Trump -- he just didn't want to.
That's a lawful FBI. This is a lawless executive branch. As we all know by now, executive branch has a lot a power that cannot be limited by Congress nor the Courts and erasing a few zeros from 4T market valuation is a piece of cake (as we witnessed daily how they moved billions around the market to their favorite inside traders).
Tanking Apple would tank the economy -- the one thing Repubs are afraid of. Cook could have used that.
Other, much smaller organizations have stood up to Trump and forced him to back down. So much for "courage."
Like you said, yes, it is about courage. I just felt that I won't have that courage when I were in his shoes. We can just be different.
> Everyone in the United States is complicit to the horrible things done by the Trump administration by your logic.
This is a ridiculous strawman. I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume ignorance instead of malice.
I wrote that going above and beyond to curry favor with an autocrat in order to protect your profits is collaboration.
And you read, what? Existing under a government means you necessarily support it because there was an election? You do understand an election means some people voted the other way, right?
Not an ounce of self reflection in this comment.
He's not an autocrat precisely because there was an election. He won the election because he got the most votes. He has since failed to do most things he campaigned on because his power is very limited by virtue of our government's structure.
Sorry for dropping the implied “wannabe” in autocrat, I figured HN commenters would be smart enough to infer that based on context. He is pushing and breaking boundaries on every front. No, he never accomplished any of the outlandish promises he made about the economy because he was lying and his team is incompetent, same reason the Iran war is a disaster. Project 2025 has been going pretty damn well though.
> He is doing the most while giving the least.
> Contrast with every other tech executive
What contrast is there? Tech executives capitulated to Trump's demands, and Tim Cook did the exact same thing. The problem doesn't start and stop with the gold trophy, it encompasses things like European legislation, labor/union laws, and complex supply chains that Apple needs federal support to manage. There are convoluted motives here, and the bizzaro FIFA trophies are only the tip of the iceberg.
It's fair to say there is not much contrast. But he's kept Apple's DEI and climate commitments in place even after being attacked directly, while Zuckerberg, Musk and Altman are proactively broadcasting right-wing talking points, sometimes pre-emptively. Yes, Cook gave $1 million, but Brockman gave $25 million, and Musk gave much, much more.
We don't know what deals Cook and Trump have made with each other, we've just seen the byproduct of their relations on the political stage. Nothing Cook did during his tenure de-risked Apple from the consequences of a worsening political state in the US. When the tides turn towards authoritarianism, Apple turns towards compliance. They've done it for both Trump admins.
Cynically speaking, Cook is wise to keep the DEI and climate commitments as bartering chits for Apple's next leadership to forfeit. He knows that Apple needs leverage to get their druthers from the Fed.
When you say you don't know something about one actor in an equation, you must apply the same thinking to every other actor. It's not useful to go on the path you're going down.
I do apply that same logic to figures like Altman and Musk, and I would argue it's been a very useful framework for analyzing their motives.
> Giving a golden statue of Trump has no effect on you and me, and a very large effect on Trump. He is gaining significant political capital while giving up nothing that matters (feel free to correct if I am wrong).
He personally donated at least a million dollars to Trump's inauguration, plus whatever to the campaign.
He also donated to Kamala Harris campaign. He would also donate to the next Democratic president for their inauguration if they still choose to do this corruptive thing. And your point is?
Apple's hardware (at least when it comes to their best selling products) is behind the times though. Relatively old and small camera sensors, no new battery tech and falling behind manufacturers using silicon-carbon (most evident on the mediocre iPhone Air battery runtime), no design innovation, no alternative form factors etc
Siri was pretty bad, though it's noticeably better recently.
But MacOS is excellent IMO, and Apple's office suite is still my favorite (and I've worked extensively on Win/Lin/Mac for the past 25 years). I can't say I have any more gripes about their SW than most others.
>Mind you, Apple hardware is already amazing, but hopefully it can be even better with Ternus at the helm. Apple software is terrible, and hopefully Ternus can turn that around.
It used to be the other way around, nice software and mediocre hardware.
The problem with Apple software is they stop competition where it makes them money through lock-in. Apple ARM CPUs are great, but the GPUs do leave things to be desired, and they stop competition there too on their platforms.
> I also want to say I really appreciate Tim Cook’s emphasis on user privacy and I hope John Ternus can continue this trend.
You're kidding right? News [1] just broke about how Apple's permanent notification storage (that they refuse to fix) undermines encryption and is being exploited by law enforcement. And they conveniently left out the fact that they were giving out push notification data to law enforcement without any warrants from their transparency reports [2]. And these are just from the top of my head.
Do we now presume all companies putting the word privacy on their ads are emphasizing privacy? Because Meta and Google does that too.
[1] https://www.forbes.com/sites/larsdaniel/2026/04/10/fbi-pulle... [2] https://www.wired.com/story/apple-google-push-notification-s...
Wow, the worst example of violation of privacy is...(wait for it) local push notification storage being plaintext. We already bought it, no need to sell more Apple product to us!
I mean...
Really what apple is doing is putting a spin on their core business model of selling users the technology rather than renting it to them by subsidizing its development through spying.
It's not so much that privacy is apple's goal, but rather privacy is inherent to apple's business model (unlike google, which has always been spyware).
I feel like Apple's biggest challenges these next 10 years will be logistics, being able to create or take advantage of additional redundancy in the supply chain for their major components.
With Ternus being the new CEO don’t be surprised if Apple takes a more active role in designing around the three Stooges of memory and bring it (the design and engineering) in house like the rest of the Apple Silicon chips.
re: US Politics, I view Apple's gift of the gold & glass trophy to Trump more as a humiliation ritual Cook had to endure so that they can continue to uphold their principles, but with a less adversarial government.
Sure it's gross but it does not necessarily signal an abandonment of values from Apple.
Disagree. Cook shows up to dinner parties with Trump all the time. I think he genuinely feels solidarity with the Epstein class.
Disagree. Trump is 100% willing and apparently able to crush American businesses unless they kneel. If watching a movie and giving him a gold toilet seat bought off that extortionist it was probably the cheapest any tech firm got off. Cook made the right call not to let Apple get destroyed by our whimsical overlord.
Yet he keeps going to his parties and schmoozing with his cronies. I don't recall Pichai or Nadella giving Trump a gold trinket to save their businesses.
If he were going to do that he'd already have been doing it just like Tim locking down logistics long before he became CEO.
Don't count on it.
> Apple software is terrible
I killed a Finder process that was at 1.2 G ram consumed today...
I wish I could get my Chrome memory footprint so low
Chrome is equivalent of operating system, meanwhile Finder? :D
Oh I also killed my Teams Chrome tab at the same time. But it was only 1 G :)
Apple under Tim Cook stopped innovating, entirely. If Steve was stil alive he'd still be competing we'd probably have Safari on Windows to this day... and cheaper computers (like the NEO but with upgradeable RAM)
> If Steve was stil alive he'd still be competing we'd probably have Safari on Windows to this day... and cheaper computers (like the NEO but with upgradeable RAM)
The MacBook Pro started using non-removable batteries in 2009. Also: https://www.folklore.org/Diagnostic_Port.html
I don't think your fantasy that Steve would have staunchly defended upgradable RAM in the past decade has much grounding in reality. It seems entirely likely that he would have supported the switch to LPDDR to enable better battery life, higher performance and thinner form factors at the cost of sacrificing that upgradability.
I'll forever associate Tim Cook with Zuck
And his "kind of glib"
No, Zuck, you're just mad Apple introduced fine grained control so you can't constantly scrape people's credentials
You reminded me of Tim's "you should buy [your grandma] an iPhone" quip which was based (on good advice).
> a renaissance
How many renaissances does one company need? Apple hasn't had enough? lol
> Apple software is terrible
The Vision Pro software team did an incredible job. Its software is more impressive than its hardware.
> The Vision Pro software team did an incredible job. Its software is more impressive than its hardware.
Good, can they move to fixing the base OS then?
Did Vision Pro leadership subsequently take over Apple Intelligence?
Did they? Why don’t I see people using this product while driving, or even walking down the street?
You're asking why, if its software is better than its hardware, people aren't driving cars with them on? Not sure I follow...
The software being good and it being used in a product consumers wanted are two very different things.
What did you think you were asking? Or was this just a lame, ill-conceived gotcha that probably needed another few hours in the oven before being chucked in the garbage?
Because it costs thirty five hundred American dollars?
The Apple Vision still needs to get two or three times better preferably with an M6 or M6 processor, whoops, more memory, faster SSD, thunderbolt five etc. oh and it needs to be $1500 Hmm… not possible for another two years? With better software.
And to do that more than likely the engineering and design of memory systems probably needs to come in house. No more outside dependency.
Because the HW is bad and pricing is bad. Not because SW is bad.
The hardware is best than class in both software and hardware by a mile who is this other company Meta or is it Microsoft with a HoloLens? Long-term iteration is the only way the Apple Vision Pro will get better if it took 13 years to come up with an M1 processor beginning to end and six years to have your first working modem that can be used in a smartphone there are no shortcuts long hard iteration is the only way.
I misread the comment I was replying to; thought they were claiming HW was good, and SW was bad.
by apple software, you mean ios or macos?
I'm genuinely curious why you think Apple software is terrible?
They re-write many apps every few years as part of their major design changes. These re-writes inevitably introduce lots of little bugs in uncommon workflows, and they often jettison whole features like AppleScript integration that cause real problems with users. They then spend a couple of years fixing the worst of these bugs, and things die down. Until the next UI-driven re-write.
I will admit they change and depreciate APIs like crazy, but do you have any examples of features or AppleScript being jettisoned that were not fixed? The issue that stands out to me was the once in 17 year 2019 cut-off for 32 bit apps with a lacking Quicktime X and Final Cut X, but even then the plan then was to get everything back up to snuff quickly.
I read a Gruber article recently that when Messages went Catalyst he had no issues with his AppleScript at all.
Because there are so many bugs that it makes me wonder if Apple Execs ever use their own software.
For example, on MacOS, you can set an app to be on all spaces. But on reboot, despite that setting, it will stick to a single space, until you relaunch the app. It has been this way for 4-5 major OS versions.
There are PLENTY of examples just like that.
Well, if you're asking if apple execs use that setting, the answer is probably that they don't.
I think the issue is that there are SO many piled up little features everywhere that SOMEone is using that keeping everything working while making any changes at all is very difficult.
I am a fan of more wood behind fewer swings. Don't add something like spaces unless you think you've got something so good that you are confident that it will be the common path.
It's all been downhill since snow leopard IMO. Maybe I've just become cynical and jaded over the years, but I don't remember the last time I was excited for a new OS feature. Meanwhile the UX gets worse and worse with every new release. e.g. Tahoes janky corners, the dumbed down System Preferences app, random bugs that apple hasn't fixed for years, etc
You've not read about or had the Calculator memory leaks on macOS Tahoe, have you?
on windows it does not leak slowly. just preallocates 2x memory for all future leaks.
No one accused Microsoft of writing good software.
Their presumed lack of regression testing.
When was the last time you used the clusterf* that is iTunes on windows?
Or more generically answer the question: how can I get an arbitrary audio file into my iTunes music? (hint: good luck)
Music 'synced' with iTunes but not appearing on my other devices? There must be some kind of arbitrary difference between 'synced with iTunes' and 'synced with iCloud'. I guarantee this is some kind of (barely) maintained legacy syncing to keep the iTunes workflow alive specifically so Apple can avoid giving users a modern 'import to my cloud library' feature.
Also, remember guys, you can't have a shell on iphone because. Nor a text editor. Because. ssh into your iphone? hah. These are all software issues.
A shell is not useful on a touch screen device.
iOS comes with a text editor built in. Memo.
Ssh server doesn't make sense for an iPhone. How would that even work? It wouldn't be able to do anything or be a worse experience than something properly designed for the user rather than trying to force a 50 year old computing model onto a phone.
I’m very upset that iOS doesn’t support using a phone as a jump box.
You say this matter of factly and yet I've seen countless people talk about using termux more than a desktop shell.
Maybe iPhone is different but most phones you can connect a keyboard to, making the shell pretty usable. Not my cup of tea but I have tried it. I'm still holding out on the dream that a good Linux phone might exist one day.
In the grand scheme of things very little people use Termux on Android out of the billions of people who use Android. Additionally Termux's design is not aligned with Android's app model which has caused many headaches for them. Trying to force a terminal to exist on a phone is possible but it is being forced and is not a natural product that would exist if one was trying to design the best user experience.
A shell is perfectly useful on a touchscreen device.
> a 50 year old computing model onto a phone
What? Do you think command lines are based on the lambda calculus or something?
Lambda calculus was more like 90 years ago
50 years ago people interacted with computers using actual terminals.
iSH is a shell for iOS, it has all the common shell tools and you can ssh into it.
> iTunes on windows
For decades it has been speculated they intentionally make that shit so people will be more likely to switch to apple
I’ve heard this but it doesn’t make much sense to me. People see the shit software, and they think “Apple software is shit.” I don’t think they think “This software is only shit because I’m on Windows, I better switch to Mac and run (basically) the same software there.”
It’s actually not speculation, they have testified in court, under oath, that they had a whole developer team just to fuck up the user experience.
Don’t expect anything to change re politics. The CEO has to look out for the interest of the company.
I can name some terrible software, but it wouldn't be Apple's.
macOS and iOS 26 are quite bad.
Really wanna discuss the current windows debacles? Come on! Apple software regressed but it’s not outright hostile bad still.
That's an extremely low bar, Windows has been shit for a long time and has basically only degraded. Some people think Windows 10 was good, it wasn't, they just haven't used Windows for long enough.
Apple software isn't bad, but it is often obtuse and buggy. And, with iOS 26, usability has taken a big hit.
at least you can still decide on the software you install
How do you not install all the ads?
Give the competitors a try...
On macOS when I alt-tab to a full-screen app it takes forever. On KDE when I alt-tab to a full-screen app it's instantaneous.
On macOS when I connect or disconnect an external monitor, my applications get all confused on where they should display, especially if I then reconnect a monitor. On KDE when I unplug my monitor everything goes nicely onto one desktop. When I put a monitor back in, everything goes back to where it was before. It just works.
On macOS, every time I install a new program I need to do some dance with System preferences to allow it to run. I tried some command line settings that supposedly disables this, but it never sticks. Every few months, the process is different than it was before. On KDE, I just run my software and it works.
On macOS, I don't have useful window snapping behavior or full-screen behavior, nor am I able to have focus follow my mouse. On KDE, I have these.
macOS just doesn't work for me. But the competitors have a good solution.
I've used Linux over the years. But a niche desktop environment being better in some very specific use cases isn't much of an argument.
Why not? People choose their tools by criteria that matter to their use cases. For some, alt-tab behavior doesn't matter. For others it's a primary pain point.
Computing should be personal. Some people like to mold their tools to their way of working. Others adapt their way of working to their tools. KDE is for the former, and macOS is for the latter.
Why would someone else use my criteria? They should use their own criteria? I certainly am not going to use your "it's niche so it can't be useful" criteria as it's important to my usage.
what is bad for you? was you at linux or windows - may be apple is best of all bad?
XCode, Apple Music, Siri, Apple Maps, The App Store, Finder, Safari, Spotlight, iCloud...
I'd need another hand to fully count all the Apple apps that have burned me in the past.
It’s so sad. Circa 2003 OS X wasn’t just good it was amazing. Nearly Movie OS quality. Every release the quality goes down. Every migration to SwiftUI more and more AppKit standard feature get lost.
In 2003 it was a dog’s dinner. I remember getting kernel panics from pulling out an already ejected USB stick.
Guess what people were saying in 2003…
2003 OS X sucked.
Sucked compared to what? My OS X life began shortly before Panther, and coming from a Linux laptop everything was better. Compared to Windows XP, everything in Panther was better. Panther on a 1GHz TiBook was amazing compared to anything else at the time.
Can we add Photos to that list? Can we add it twice cause it is that bad.
Books can go on it too. No matter the free storage space on my iPad, it relentlessly nerfs stuff to iCloud rendering its utility on long aeroplane journeys completely worthless.
I'll add it once, we need a donor hand to tally the iOS and WatchOS versions.
>Apple software is terrible
That's a wild claim.
Have you used an iPhone recently?
Have you used actually terrible software recently?
I would never
The software is what kept me away from iphones even though I hate android hardware
Apple’s software is the best in the non-free software world compared to Google's or Microsoft's, IMO. But that doesn't mean it can't be better.
Their software is better than most (if not all) of closed-source universe. That's true, but the problem is, they were better in the past.
I'm using both Linux and macOS close to 20 years (Linux is even more than 20, IIRC), and macOS (aka Mac OS) used to be snappier, more stable, more uniform and had incredibly low number of papercuts around the UI. Now it has some nasty thorns here and there, while Linux is improving steadily and not regressing much as macOS.
Apple needs to overhaul their software stack. They can use a lot of sanding and polishing to bring the shine back. They need another "Snow Leopard" release, as many people say.
On the other hand, even with all these bells and whistles, they can't even get close to the composability of Linux systems. Doing so will also damage their bottom line, so they won't, and that's OK.
When Apple released its BSD-based OS X at the turn of the century, I was at Rice learning on Solaris machines, and also started dual booting Linux on my personal desktop at the time. My first few years in the working world were spent on Dells running Windows, so by the time I bought my first laptop in 2006, I was excited to spend my dollars on an unusual-looking white Macbook specifically because it had a *nix shell and the developer experience was vastly better to me than any machine I used at my day jobs. I still prefer working on Macs because ever since, they have just worked and Windows has gotten progressively worse (I know, because I have helped my parents with their Surface laptop). Unfortunately, Mac OS X has been less robust in the last several years, and I'd love to see them turn this around, both for the developer experience and for regular consumers. I still like using Photos, but I don't use their cloud for those, and I've been amazed over the years just how uninformative the Photos app on Mac can be when it flakes out and I have to try a rain dance just to get it to sync with my iPhone. That's pretty abysmal for a company that used to just work, but I believe it comes from the top. Steve Jobs used to enforce quality, and I want to see that again!
Similar experience here, started with the same G4 ("white") iBook. That was an amazing machine. Under the hood it was hard to distinguish many differences with Linux/BSD of the time. The UI on top (OSX Tiger) was peerless -- I recall being very excited for the introduction of Spotlight. I'd say the decline came around 2012-2013 or so. Hardware was still great, but they were no longer updating the GNU stuff and anti-features like SIP made it harder and harder to run the applications I want (gdb for example). I gave up not long after they introduced the touchbar
These days I'm happier (or at least content) without a Mac. My FW13+Linux setup may not be as nice as the latest macbook, but it does exactly what I want and if it doesn't, I have options.
> I'd say the decline came around 2012-2013
Dead on.
Apple's current software is such a joke I almost regret ever having invested in the Mac ecosystem. I still run Mojave for its 32-bit app support for (apple's own) apps that have no contemporary equal.
Apple weathered the passing of Steve surprisingly well, however the cracks still show. Apple's very best is exclusively reserved for those products/devices/software with Jobs' fingerprints on them.
I still run an original iPhone SE as well. The entire tech sphere has gone in such a poor direction, I've increasingly divested myself from tech. If it no longer works with my system, I simply stop using it. It's a happy ("insecure") place.
> I'd say the decline came around 2012-2013 or so.
I think it started slightly earlier: 10.7 Lion in 2011 introduced the new full-screen mode that was completely broken on multi-monitor setups, as though Apple entirely failed to test on or even anticipate what was at most a moderately "power user" hardware configuration. They've introduced lots of useless features over the years (eg. Game Center), but that full-screen mode was the first time I recall OS X having such an in-your-face usability regression that was so obvious and avoidable.
10.7 also dropped Front Row, which was a disappointment to me, but is at least understandable in the context of Apple TV existing as a separate product they wanted to steer users toward. Losing Rosetta in 10.7 was also somewhat justifiable, and didn't hurt me much since my first Mac was an Intel machine and I didn't have much of a library of PPC-only applications.
I'm a Linux guy who doesn't really like Macs but has intermittently been required to use them. On the whole I have a grudging respect for Apple (their hardware is peerless), but seeing one screen turn to "brushed steel" when the app on the other was put into full screen mode kind of blew my mind because "UI is worse than Windows" was not, at the time, a failure mode I believed the company was capable of.
The problem is, in the age of the Internet, old operating systems decay. Even MacOS 10.13 is effectively unusable as a primary workstation, NOT because Apple has abandoned it, but because Firefox, Chrome and Homebrew have abandoned it. Yes there are alternatives, but my point stands.
SIP is anti-feature for a certain class of users, but the right tradeoff for most consumers. At least you can disable it. And even as a developer I leave it enabled.
> the right tradeoff for most consumers
It's really easy to fail to see this in the heat of things.
macOS has a feature where it puts an orange dot on the top right corner of your screen whenever your microphone is recording. That orange dot is normally part of the menu bar, and completely unobtrusive, but will still show up on top of full-screen windows (e.g. it'll show up on top of games if you're on Discord talking to friends), which is distracting as hell.
As horrendously annoying that little dot is, what's the alternative? Either you have an uncircumventable marker saying you're being recorded, or you don't. Any way to turn that thing off that doesn't involve disabling SIP would be trivial to exploit by anybody who managed to plant malicious recording software in the first place.
They could put an LED in the bezel, like the camera indicator.
That works great on a laptop. Less so on a Mac Studio, using non-Apple displays.
More annoying is when you use something like SoundSource (a paid app which adds per-app volume control and input/output redirection to macOS... a feature that by all rights should be built in in any reasonable OS) you get a permanent purple dot indicating a third party tool is intercepting audio.
Again, I get it, but as a power user this kind of stuff is just infuriating.
It's also annoying that macOS doesn't already have at least basic per-app volume mixing.
So much pain in macOS is in areas like this, trying to hack basic features back into the anemic OS.
Apple's "OS" updates typically focus on end-user applications that I don't use and never intend to. Meanwhile the core of the OS, and even the desktop environment, feels stagnant compared to many Linux distros.
[dead]
Actually, the date was 29 June 2007. This is when GPLv3 was released and Apple could no long continue using the fruits of open source labor without giving anything back. That's when MacOS X's UNIX underlying began to ossify. Sure Apple kept backporting important security things, but it froze in time all of the GNU utilities that made UNIX on MacOS X good.
> no longer updating the GNU stuff
I think that was mainly due to GPL 3.
I’m honestly unconvinced that the “or later” clause of the GPLv2 license is legally valid. Can anyone think of any example where contract terms get to be reinvented by a self-interested third party whenever they choose?
The "or later" is a separate issue, I think.
IIRC, the FSF generally insists on getting assigned the copyrights on all GNU software, so the FSF can re-license any new version of their software under any license they choose to, which is currently GPLv3.
Users/vendors can still choose GPLv2 for the older versions of GNU software, which I think is what Apple does for the few remaining GNU software they ship.
The whole experience you're having with the rain dance is because the cloud does just work. It's a vanishing a tiny percentage of people that don't use it.
I hear ya. I'm not in the target market. Surprising, I know, considering how many SaaS platforms I've launched which maintain photos and videos in the cloud!
Many other iPhone/Macbook users have been shocked I don't turn on Messages on my Mac due to a bad experience with sync in the first year that was possible, and I had a similar bad experience with photos in iCloud early on. Maybe the sync is fast now, but my usage would put my in a higher iCloud tier than I'd like, and I still feel more at ease juggling many Photos libraries on external hard drives. I avoid Google Photos like the plague, and even though I trust Apple more (for now), I'd still rather not entrust to them my family's personal photos and videos.
As someone who has had the pain, if you're open to some prodding - one of your external hard drives might be broken right now. Don't risk it. Just pay a few bucks a month to avoid missing your memories. :) I don't think they've ever had a data loss.
It doesn't even have to be Apple. There's Backblaze and Arq and Tarsnap, amongst others. Encrypt the hell out of it and make sure there's a globally redundant copy of your files. If a thief or fire/tornado/earthquake/tsunami takes out your physical drives, where are you?
Always good advice! I did start backing up at a location other than my home many years ago, but it’s not in a cloud. The one time I tried Backblaze I wasn’t impressed but I recognize there are other good alternatives and certainly agree with your strong convictions!
> fire/tornado/earthquake/tsunami takes out your physical drives, where are you?
Hopefully in a place where I can solve the bigger problems I have then!
> Maybe the sync is fast now, but my usage would put my in a higher iCloud tier than I'd like
You can use Messages on the Mac without storing messages in iCloud. iPhone, iPad and Mac can all send and receive the same account’s messages, effectively staying in sync without actually syncing them to iCloud’s servers.
The thing where Linux (and Android, and Windows at least circa 2023) blows Apple out of the water is in UI latency. The built-in animations on Apple's software are sometimes hundreds of times slower than on their competitors, in ways which can't be accounted for.
Improving interface response times is the single best thing Apple can do to improve their UX. I don't need an interface which throbs, wiggles, jiggles, shines, and refracts, I need an interface that's snappy and fast.
As far as I know, MacOS is the _only_ desktop OS with this problem. The only way to fix this problem on MacOS is to do everything inside a virtual machine running anything but MacOS.
> The built-in animations on Apple's software are sometimes hundreds of times slower than on their competitors, in ways which can't be accounted for.
You can turn down the animation times for most of this with "defaults write" commands. Set them to 0 or as small as you want. Here's a good list to get started:
https://gist.github.com/j8/8ef9b6e39449cbe2069a
> I don't need an interface which throbs, wiggles, jiggles, shines, and refracts, I need an interface that's snappy and fast.
System Settings -> Accessibility -> Reduce Motion: Enabled System Settings -> Accessibility -> Display -> Reduce Transparency: Enabled
As others have noted, the "Reduce Motion" doesn't fix anything (neither does Reduce Transparency).
These terminal commands don't fix the problem- there are still lengthy animations, e.g. when swapping desktops or opening folders. These are tasks I sometimes do multiple times per second on Linux.
Hilariously, this is what the Gnome 2 people would have called an "Unbreak Me" option, something they tried culturally to eliminate more than a decade and a half ago. With... not total success, I guess, but the resulting environment tends to have a very high level of "work and not suck by default" quality -- something that steadily evolving commercial software tends to struggle with maintaining.
The only thing I need to do to unbreak gnome is twiddle the ctrl:nocaps thing in xkb-options. Everything else is optional.
> Enable the “Reduce motion” setting in System Settings.
> This is always the default answer to this question online, and I’m sick of it! It doesn’t even solve the problem, but rather replaces it with an equally useless fade-in animation.
https://arhan.sh/blog/native-instant-space-switching-on-maco...
You're missing the point here. The "old" Apple would never have tolerated a janky feature that inverts responsibility onto the user and behaves poorly out-of-the-box. Back then it was either lightning fast, jank-free, and intuitive -- or else it doesn't ship.
But this eroded over time. Nowadays both Mac and iOS are bloated pieces of crap that reek of design by committee. A lot of people blame Alan Dye (and they are probably right to do so) but there are other factors too. With Steve and Jony gone, they need someone who cares to step in and assert control once more
> Back then it was either lightning fast, jank-free, and intuitive -- or else it doesn't ship.
That's kinda rose tinted history. System 7 (1990s Mac OS) for example crashed and locked up a whole lot, in my experience. The UI was fantastic and had great consistency, and the developer docs were of a quality that would blow minds today. But the software was not as solid as all that.
Windows was the same or maybe worse at the time. BSOD was common and a nightly reboot was a good idea until NT/Win2000. Solaris and BSD would have months of uptime on similar hardware, so it was a software problem. PC OSes were just not there yet. Windows 2000, OSX, and Linux gradually fixed that.
That's all basic uptime. The UI design drift of MacOS is another story.
What saddens me is that a decade and a half ago, Apple led that charge with a reliable and unblockable UI thread on the iPhone.
Now that said iPhone is a thousand times faster, just invoking the keyboard can cause a serious delay with stutters.
I have an ‘old’ model (iPhone 14 pro max) and text frequently misses characters due to the lag/input delay. It’s most pronounced when using safari for some reason.
In any case, it’s odd that hardware is multiples better yet it doesn’t always nail something as basic as typing
In my experience, iOS only misses keys during the time the keyboard is loading (which can be over a second- crazy!)
But I often have input lags where I will press several keys, and then a period of time (which can be multiple seconds) will pass before my taps are registered.
The 14 Pro Max launched less than four years ago, and should not be slower than an Android which launched a decade prior.
I never had any lag on my 4yo iPhone SE until the forced upgrade to iOS 26. Now I finally understand what all those Android users complain about.
> forced upgrade to iOS 26
No-one has forced you to upgrade. I’m writing this on iOS 18.
I don't have lags in Android.
I think a big part of this in recent years is SwiftUI just not being fully-cooked and Apple trying to shove it into a bunch of areas without enough attention to performance. Not sure how it is on iOS, but for example, the Settings app feels chuuuunky if you navigate through the panes with up and down arrow keys. I wasn't able to make a selectable list view that worked consistently and didn't feel like a regression compared to an equivalent AppKit view
> I think a big part of this in recent years is SwiftUI just not being fully-cooked and Apple trying to shove it into a bunch of areas without enough attention to performance.
FWIW, SwiftUI got a huge performance boost for iOS/macOS 26+, and Instruments 26 has been nice for finding performance bottlenecks. You may find the SwiftUI performance auditor in a free/FOSS project of mine (https://charleswiltgen.github.io/Axiom/commands/ui-design/au...) helpful as well.
Why it took 4 years to get to near-UIKit levels of performance I couldnt say, but I've had a great experience working with it on an app that's 97% SwiftUI.
Hmm, I guess I couldn't have known about that since I don't have iOS and haven't upgraded to macOS 26 yet, but performance auditing did seem a bit opaque last I tried.
Any specific improvements you've seen on the mac side?
It's odd to see this comment, since I've always had the opposite experience (at least when comparing Windows and MacOS -- I haven't used desktop linux much in the past 20 years). On MacOS, when I click something, something happens, or at the very least starts to happen (and I get some visual indication). While in Windows I often click on something and get no indication that something happened or started happening, so I click again, and then suddenly perform the action twice. This most often happens when opening programs, but it happens in other places too sometimes.
I’ve found Mac OS to be snappier than any of the dozen or so Linux DEs I’ve tried. I use Fedora with XFCE and it’s ok in responsiveness, I’ve got PopOS on another machine. It’s good. But I’ve got MacOS on my other two machines and they just feel so much snappier. And the Macs are 6-7 years old. The other machines are newer (2/3yo).
In any case have you tested on the same machine for the most apt comparison? Agr may not be the best predictor of performance when io and memory may be more productive of snappiness than the latest CPU.
Input devices and monitors can make a difference as well.
For Windows, my last experience on a personal install was Windows 10 and that was yeeeaaars ago, so... Grain of salt :)
It's not the default, but IIRC Windows could be configured to have zero animations, and I found it to be quite responsive as such.
I'm not talking about the speed of opening programs, but more of the speed of every-second interactions: Unfolding a folder (or other interactions within a program with keyboard or mouse), alt-tabbing across windows, moving between desktops, etc. At least on Windows, I saw far fewer IO-blocking animations than I have on MacOS.
You're right about the "something starts to happen": Apple hides delays behind sigmoidal animations throughout much of their OS. For those who aren't aware of the trick, the delay between the start of the animation and the tail where it starts appears to just be an animation that started on the interaction.
Windows isn't a useful base of comparison anymore. They really stopped trying years ago.
Package management, too. I recently got a MacBook for work, but it’s sitting on my desk and I’m continuing to use my Lenovo. Managing software updates is much better on Linux. As is managing windows (via Niri in my case). macOS really feels like a downgrade.
I don’t disagree, I just moved back to Linux from macOS myself (Tahoe was the last drop for me).
But did you try Homebrew and its extensions? It works pretty well for managing both terminal and GUI apps, and has some useful extensions like Brewfile, MAS, etc. Its not perfect, but for single-user Macs with an up-to-date OS version, it works quite well.
For managing windows I agree Mac OS sucks. But the third party window managers I use for MacOS are better than any other first or third party window managers I’ve ever used. Windows has far better window management than any Linux distro’s default WM. (But it’s terrible in every other way)
did you tried nix on macos? helps with software updates
Nix is not the same as nixos, and in this case the distinction matters. It has to step carefully around Apple's updates. This further highlights the fact Apple lacks the same quality package management as some linux distros. Nixpkgs (on macos), Ports, and Homebrew packages are toys compared to the EFFORT that goes into maintaining Debian and Redhat packages.
In terms of package management SOFTWARE, however, nix (and guix, lix, etc.) are state of the art and work fairly similar in both linux and macos. A deeper integration with the OS would have been nice.
Package managers are wonderful until you step near our outside of the packaged software - then you better hope you're on a big distro otherwise you may be in uncharted territory.
Except on Linux you have to remember which of the several different package managers each specific system uses. Do I use apt, apt-get, pacman, yum, dnf, flatpacks, build from source? Homebrew on MacOS is miles ahead in terms of DE in my experience. But yeah I guess by default the “App Store” is meh.
There is no such thing as DX with any digital tool. Its just pain and suffering all the way down. Sooner you realize it and make peace with it the better.
> Except on Linux you have to remember which of the several different package managers each specific system uses. Do I use apt, apt-get, pacman, yum, dnf, flatpacks, build from source?
How often are you switching systems that you can't remember the package manager?
You could just alias your package manager to something more memorable if it's really a problem, but I feel like this argument only really applies to servers where you may be logging into a variety of different distributions every day.
I find using non-Apple pointing device to have drastically improved the latency.
I plug a Mac into a 120hz monitor with a high refresh rate mouse and it is gloriously snappy, snappier than any Windows PC I’ve ever used.
>The thing where Linux (and Android, and Windows at least circa 2023) blows Apple out of the water is in UI latency.
I wouldn't expect that of Android because it's Java and Kotlin parts run in a VM and there's a garbage collector pausing the execution at times.
This is the biggest thing that irks me after coming from windows. Everything feels so sluggish. I wonder why the internet ist full of people complaining about that. I guess they just dont work fast enough to be bothered by that?
Yes, I hate how slow it is to swipe between desktop workspaces, for example.
Doesn't excuse it but in case you or other readers are unaware, there are some ways to mitigate it: https://arhan.sh/blog/native-instant-space-switching-on-maco...
Why would you use that feature? MacOS doesn't REALLY have multiple desktops (Spaces). That is merely a pre-release feature (for 10 years or so, I think). As evidenced by the many critical user journey bugs it has that don't get addressed.
I use both linux (with a decent tiling window manager; the tiling management being the least important part of it) and macos. And certain things are just not possible to do with macos. On linux I can have 300+ open terminal windows AND CAN find the one I need when I need to. On macos 20 (counting in Termianl tabs, which are implemented as windows, underneath) is about the high mark that it gets annoying to work on. On macos, you can't effectively work on multiple projects that use the same software (editor + terminal, for example). You can work with different Applications, though, and that is managed pretty well (better than most linux window managers that I have seen).
Every year or so I try adding a couple of Spaces, and always regret it a couple of hours later, switching back to a single Space (+ a few fullscreen apps).
I've used spaces since 2013, they work well enough. The animation bug is annoying though. On displays higher than 60Hz, the animation is slower because they made it frame-based instead of time-based, or something silly like that.
I love the three finger gesture to move between them though, it's like moving pieces of paper around. You can also work around the bug I mentioned by swiping faster, but yeah I wish they'd just fix it so we can move on.
Of course it can be used. But it is very buggy (as in missing or not well-though-out behaviors), which is unlike the typical polish Apple human interaction folks deliver. For example switching between Spaces and then between apps and windows and creating a new app window don't work as expected in some combination of steps and for some apps. There are several other "corner" cases that show the features were not laid out in a full design to exhaustively decide the desired behavior in each case. Which is very much like when someone bolts on a feature to a system without fully nail down its interaction with all other adjacent and relevant features.
I'm just responding to your "Why would you use that feature?" question. I use it because I like it, and it works well for me. I'm not disagreeing that they have some bugs and design issues to work out. It seems pretty obvious MacOS doesn't get as much attention as iOS when it comes to these things.
Spaces help me visually organize related apps. I have all my chat apps in one, all my dev stuff in another.
I used to run Linux with i3 tiling window manager, but switched to Mac because the battery is so much better. Although the new Framework laptop looks like it has pretty great battery life.
Linux benefits long term from the fragmentation that hurts it in the short-term. Competing projects means it is harder for software to go too far down the wrong road. Go to far and somebody emerges to replace you. And popular ideas emerge that others can copy from.
With macOS, you really have no choice to use what Apple offers. You can hope they listen to dissent but they may not depending on priorities. And things have to be bad enough to jump platforms before real dissent registers. And things have to get pretty bad for that.
Same issue with Windows of course.
With GNOME, KDE, COSMIC, and the Linux rat pack, it is easy to switch experiences without ditching Linux entirely. And somebody has probably even patched your DE of choice to address the papercuts you do not like.
> but the problem is, they were better in the past.
So true. I run into so many little and annoying bugs I sometimes wonder if Apple Execs actually use their own devices.
I've been using Apple since IIe in the 80s and all of the UI iterations. People make iOSification comments about macOS, and there have definitely been annoyances as they are seemingly trying to unify the UX. Maybe it'll make sense when they have touch controllable macOS systems, but making things that work well for fingertips and assuming they will work equally as well operating by a mouse is just bad.
As for Linux, I don't think I've ever used a system with UI for any serious amount of time. >99.999% of my usage is on headless systems through a terminal. As god intended.
A Snow Leopard move, at least for iOS, is what's on deck:
https://www.macrumors.com/2026/03/15/ios-27-will-reportedly-...
A major reason Snow Leopard was well received was because of how performant it felt along with the bug fixes. What isn't mentioned anywhere near as much is that it dropped a lot of hardware (PPC). The last G4 Powerbook got about 1.5y of OS support before it was dropped.
iOS 26 is slated to drop a bunch of iPhone models. macOS is dropping all all macs with Intel CPUs.
A Snow Leopard release isn't great news for a lot of people.
> The last G4 Powerbook got about 1.5y of OS support before it was dropped.
> macOS is dropping all all macs with Intel CPUs.
Those two cases are not really comparable though, are they? The last Intel CPU Mac was the 2019 Mac Pro, which was discontinued in 2023.
Aren't they? The last Intel macs were being sold less than 3y ago, and by the time macOS 27 releases they'll be less than 3.5y old.
The broader point is that a "Snow Leopard" release has historically resulted in a lot of hardware being left behind, and many of the devices that could have benefited the most from optimizations were cut off.
they also used to sell 2018 intel mac minis alongside it for a while as well, didn't they?
Those were discontinued in 2023, too.
I still think it's unrealistic to expect 8+ years of OS updates for a computer even if you purchased it 5 years after its launch date.
Great... yet more attention on iOS
Roughly 1.75 billion to 250 million installed OSes, according to public estimates. 7 to 1 ratio.
The numbers don't tell the full story.
The development of Mac OS X was the development of iOS, and it was one-way.
How does that matter to where the attention is paid today?
Everything (or 90%) on the iphone was taken from the mac and put into the iPhone. The software dvelopment for the PC environment, then stripped down and streamlined for the phone is why the iPhone was the revolution that it was.
Apple, like you, can only think in terms of revenue and profit generated. "iPhone makes this much profit = iphone gets this much development".
That thinking has led us into this stagnated crap, because it's a terrible way to do software. Worse, what's happening now is apple is taking its iThing software and trying to migrate it to the mac. The Mac is now getting destroyed by the iPhone development.
That is the reason why.
> Apple, like you, can only think in terms of revenue and profit generated.
Wow.
Don't "Wow." out of context.
The smart move is further development of the Mac to explore ways to bring new features to the iPhone or future apple devices. To simply go "this = profit = all development goes there" personifies a lack of wisdom.
This hits hard.
They were so much better. And have slid slowly into complacency, if not worse.
I miss Steve :((
> That's true, but the problem is, they were better in the past.
You just have to look at their directors managing those software directions and you will exactly why it's become the mess that it is today.
True, it's better than most for sure and I agree it used to be better. Though a lot of other software for windows and linux are really not that great so the bar is probably on the lower end.
I use both Linux and Macos, and I'd like to get rid of xcode or have something like Nautilus.
There are many, many things that are completely normal in Linux that are super clunky in MacOS at best.
But at least try to match Nautilus or Thunar ffs.
I use macos for dev. Not even install xcode tools, neither most apps via apple store.
We need thinner phones. We need 19 cameras. The future is clear.
They were also worse in the past at times. Lion was a shit show. Worst OS X release. And does no one remember the 90s?
I agree with everything you just said. That’s exactly my take on it.
What metrics or experiences lead you to that conclusion?
I've used basically all of the major operating systems for 30+ years and I cannot stand macOS. I use a Mac as one of my work devices, and off the top of my head:
* Basic things such as window management require third party tools to get things that are table stakes everywhere else. Even with third party tools doing anything with a "full screen" mode is not going to work the way you expect.
* You can't have separate scroll directions for your trackpad and your external mouse.
* External peripherals in general are a disaster. Every time I connect or disconnect from a docking station my windows are left in awkward positions sized larger than my screen and I need to drag them around
* macOS seems to store a different set of monitor orientations based on what USB port I connect my dock to - same dock, same monitors, 2 different layouts I had to configure independently. I don't even know how you could accomplish that if you wanted it - and absolutely no one wants that.
* Multiple monitors is constantly an afterthought, whether it's menus, the dock, layouts, what have you
* The Settings app is impossible to find anything in. You have to search, and that works OK sometimes, but the layout has no rhyme, reason, or comprehensible order
* Safari. Enough said.
I could keep going, but I absolutely do not associate Apple with quality software.
I'm a decade long Safari user. What's your grievance with Safari and what do you find better?
not the op but for me safari has been deteriorating for years:
1. ios performance in scrolling and loading (especially on my ipad pro m2) is unbearably slow, just stutters everywhere when loading a page in the background
2. tap-and-hold to open a link menu is so strange; sometimes it highlights text instead of showing the menu, sometimes it works ok, there is some kind of strange ui timing issue at work
3. on ipad and ios the tab overview display scrolling is absolutely appalling like 4fps level slow... completely unbearable to scroll through tab previews
4. developer tools are abysmal compared to chrome
5. on desktop performance is also extremely slow compared to chrome, its night and day
6. battery usage is so bad on ipad, just leaving some tabs open they run down the battery and chug memory (i know this is more a web thing, but they should at least freeze tabs in the background or make it an option)
7. just strange bugs on ipad, when tapping a text field the keyboard pops up, then suddenly disappears and the pops up again... just a terrible app
etc etc lots of paper cuts, but the performance issues are the biggest for me... i like the tab groups + auto save and icloud sync and built-in spellcheck, but its getting harder and harder to resist the alternatives
The Tab Overview is due to some background tab reload.
I could basically sums up your experience as Safari is appalling at multi tab resource management. And it has been the case for 14+ years and counting.
It wasn't until Safari 18 before I have most of the rendering issues gone on sites I visit. Safari 26 is completely gone. I haven't encountered one since Safari 26.1.
With a lot of features done, I just hope Safari turn its attention to performance and snappiness of the browser. Multi Tabs doesn't work. For people who uses more than 30+ Tabs is when it start getting slow. Safari used to have an option to unload background tab and that usually fix 80% of the problem but it was taken out some years ago.
8. Searching for a word on a page is buried below main options in the share menu. WHY?
What? you can search from the address bar
I might be understanding.
But if I want to search for any comment by you on this page, how do I do it?
I’m not after a web search, I just want to see ‘j16sdiz’ highlighted on this page.
Currently I go to ‘…’ > share > scroll down > find on page.
If you tap into the address bar, start typing your search, type enough for it to be specific enough that autosuggest crap clears, and “On this page” appears. Wildly undiscoverable in practice.
Wow.
Thank you.
Apple nuked all 3rd party extensions unless they go through their bureaucracy.
Code-signing to force updates should be illegal (including iOS versions)
I have many MANY grievances with Safari:
1. Mandating all browsers on iOS/iPadOS to be powered by Safari (excluding in the EU). This doesn't sound bad, but wait until #3 below...
2. Safari's many bugs. Too many bugs. Oh so many bugs. Damn that's a lot of bugs.
- See: https://webventures.rejh.nl/blog/2024/history-of-safari-show...
- Also see the State of CSS developer survey where Safari makes up such a large portion of pain reports that "Safari" is its own category: https://2025.stateofcss.com/en-US/usage/#css_general_pain_po...
- And again in the State of JS developer survey: https://2025.stateofjs.com/en-US/features/#browser_apis_pain...
3. Grievance 1 and 2 compound together. Whenever Safari (or a Safari update) breaks a feature, you cannot inform a user that they can use another browser as a work around (because all browser engines are forced to use Webkit on iOS/iPadOS)
4. Bad dev tools. This has been seeing much needed improvements (e.g. being able to type an entire word in the css pane instead of a new character on each line), but it still feels 7 years behind.
5. No way to report bugs. There is a "bug reporter" at bugs.webkit.org, however each bug is auto-tagged with a link to an internal bug tracker within Apple. This means that those who are trying to fix bugs and those are trying to report bugs have a wall between them. There is no way to have a discussion to try to narrow down what the bug is, why the bug happens in one case but not another, what's really the cause of the issue, or why the bug matters more than whoever is assigned it might realise. When reporting a bug to Apple, it's more useful to talk to an actual wall because it might fall on you giving you an actual response.
6. Performing incorrectly is more important than getting the performing correctly. This one takes some explanation, but it's a little tricky. I'll give three examples then show how they're all the same issue:
Example 1: The cool homepage.
I was working on a website. Two months before launch I decided to spend a month of time juicing up the homepage, then one more month on polish.
On the homepage I decided to use the brand's pre-existing graphics and turning them into a parallax animation (inspired by: https://www.firewatchgame.com/)
It had:
- Regular content on the page
- Parallax layers with simple vector graphics inside them so that when the user scrolled down the page, the user saw a parallax animation of the landscape changing. (e.g. far clouds, far mountains, close clouds, close mountains, hill, foreground, simple bubble particles closer than the regular content on the sides to strengthen the depth of field illusion, etc...)
- Other vector graphics following a motion path animation
- This was done in 2017, so before CSS got scroll driven animation support, or motion-path support. It was also done without JS.
- Everything worked brilliantly, until we discovered that one particular iPhone model rendered an empty blank white page.
- I lost the last month trying pulling the effect apart trying to diagnose the bug (and with Safari's buggy dev tools being no help I had to do it in the dark). I was able to determine when the bug would trigger, and had to tear down my whole homepage and rebuild it with 2 fewer parallax layers before launch and 3 days of polish for the rest of the website before launch.
(you can see the final result at https://myobrace.com, but I really would have liked the extra time for polish, if you're wondering how I achieved the effects without JS and/or scroll-driven animations, I used css's perspective and transform rules to position the elements back in the z-axis then scaled them up so they appeared the correct size with the regular page content so as the page scrolled, the elements further back appeared to scroll at a different speed. I then used SMIL for the motion paths in the SVG elements).
Example 2. The texture
I wanted to add a repeating texture to buttons so they didn't feel so flat without needing a separate network request to download an image.
I tried generating one with SVG but the SVG 1.1 filter effects implementations aren't all hardware accelerated.
I tried generating one with CSS which worked everywhere but Safari.
You can see a texture here where the texture is generated entirely within CSS, and it doesn't work in Safari (but I didn't hide the seams because the result looks like a cool mosaic and I wanted to share the technique): https://codepen.io/spartanatreyu/pen/Yzbmvbr
(if you're curious about the actual texture I used, I hand drew a minimal noise texture in photoshop that could be repeated without showing seams, then base64 encoded it and inlined it within the CSS file so it could be loaded without needing an extra network request. You can see my development version here: https://codepen.io/spartanatreyu/pen/YzoexGg?editors=1100 (the final version is locked behind a login wall in a child-friendly education webapp))
Example 3. Asset downloading
I made a webapp for kiosk machines that downloads 100mb+ of video assets when logging in for the first time. iPads have a kiosk mode so I supported iPadOS' Safari mode so that the iPads could be used in commercial settings as kiosk machines.
When the final assets were added, the iPad machines would randomly crash during the asset downloading process.
With Safari's completely broken debugging experience, I eventually learned that as Safari downloads a video, as soon as it tries to put that downloaded data somewhere, it has to copy it across to the new place it's being stored, and if you're copying more than 3mb, it crashes the browser.
The fix was to download and store each video in 1mb chunks. This slowed down the installation speed by a bit over 300%, but at least Safari didn't crash any more.
---
Now back to: "Performing incorrectly is more important than getting the performing correctly."
It turns out Safari on iOS/iPadOS has an invisible time/performance budget. Anytime Safari hits that budget, the browser stops what its doing.
- Drawing texture to screen? How about we stop drawing all textures to the screen, including text. Websites don't need to draw any text right?
- Rendering a texture in CSS? How about you have the color white covering everything else instead.
- Downloading a video that's more than 3mb? How about I crash the browser when the download completes.
Compare this to Firefox and Chrome, as they run out of their budget, they stop starting new work so they old work can finish before starting their next task. The page may take a few milliseconds longer to get to the correct result on slower devices, but the result IS correct.
Even worse:
- Safari has no way of informing the code how close it is to the budget.
- The budget can only be found by trial and error.
- If the iOS/iPadOS device has other apps in the background, the budget is smaller.
- Each device has a different budget, so you have to penalize all Safari devices to the smallest supported budget of the oldest supported device.
- If you hit the budget on the most basic functionality (e.g. a homepage, a button, downloading required assets), then your website / webapp may as well not exist to those Apple users.
To be fair, Safari 18 ( finally ) improved a lot on what what reported in both State of CSS and JS. With 26 even better, it is gotten to the point where I believe hopefully 27 it will be a non-issue most of the time. As long as they continue to grind through everything for the next few years and not stop / pulling out resource on Safari Team.
Agree on the time/performance budget. It is pain stupid. As has been the case for so many years. And yet nothing has been done about it.
Since Catalina (maybe since Yosemite), apple has gone down the path of iOSification of its destkop operating system; dumbing it down and trying to own all use cases. Any professional desktop users have long since been chased away, and whatever professionals apple cannot shake: video and music production, have been so shoehorned in to a stupid naïve vision of what their work should look like, it borders on a joke.
No serious computer user can use a Mac anymore, and this is an unfortunate departure from Steve Jobs' Mac where he expended great effort to ensure the Mac remained a serious desktop OS.
The most egregious example of this stupidity is the dumbing down of the Disk Utility app - an app rarely if ever used by normies, and so dumbed down the pros don't want to use it either. Really leaves you scratching your head what the decisionmaking process there was.
Where Steve Jobs' would draw lines in the sand and ask developers and users not to cross it, chairman cook put NATO wire and basically forced users to do as told (safari extensions got nuked, app store apps don't load older versions of software and there's some weird exclusivity agreement, HFS+ support got dropped and apple refused updates to machines that didn't follow, etc. etc. etc. etc.)
The settings app being hot garbage is apple trying to unify their toy phone OS with the desktop OS.
Safari nuked 3rd party extensions so everything has to go through apple's extensions "store".
Apple treated its core base, the ones who saved Apple from collapse in the 90s, like expendable slave. Worse actually; apple actively chased them away like lepers.
This has led to a systemic core rot in apple's software and ecosystem, one that will take years to rectify.... if apple even chooses to do so.
> * You can't have separate scroll directions for your trackpad and your external mouse.
Scroll Reverser
My latest Mac OSX wtf was sometimes the terminal window shrinks by 1 or 2 columns every time I wake the computer up from sleep, but only when connected via thunderbolt USB C hub to external monitor. Terrifying to imagine how that must be. By contrast, Linux/BSD desktops don't generally seem to pull this kind of weird mindfuck horror movie shit? Like it either works or it's completely, obviously, totally broken. Not some weird subtle in-between thing.
- Let’s hope they don’t change the way macOS manage windows. All the additions they made to accommodate Windows users are useless. - I don’t have any issue on searching macos settings. Could you provide an example? - safari is a great browser, i use it as main browser since years and i’d never go back I think you could keep going saying things that are not true.
The alt tab implementation on macos is awful.
> You can't have separate scroll directions for your trackpad and your external mouse.
The worst. There are even separate toggles in Settings for mouse and trackpad scrolling direction, but changing one changes the other. It is truly amazing that this has persisted for 15 years.
Add sharing a contact to your current message in iMessage to that list.
for hardware you tried, was it all apple?
[dead]
Opinions vary, but I've never found Apple software to be particularly good. Their hardware is almost always exceptional.
I'd go further and say I am constantly frustrated by how difficult their software can make basic tasks. I often find many of their UX patterns unintuitive, or even feel user hostile at times. Small example, I really want to view passwords as I type them in. I constantly miss type passwords on touch screens. User error maybe, but frustrating experience.
XCode is my least favourite IDE that I use regularily.
100% agree. As someone who used both Mac and PC for 30+ years, and still use both, Mac OS (and iOS) aren't very intuitive. Lots of hidden functions. The way they organize settings is tough to find. It's always a struggle.
Apple hardware is incredible but the OS software & increasingly the design is mid at best.
My experience is similar. Great hardware. Software is good until there is something I want to do that isn't very obvious, then it's either a hassle or not possible.
My favourite example being looking for the volume mixer, and after looking online the top advice seemed to be to pay for a 3rd party application for that... Wtf?
There are so many basic gaps in functionality and so many underbaked & poorly designed Mac OS features that I end up papering over with paid 3rd party applications.
That is how Apple makes money. By design.
In order for that to actually be a money-making strategy for Apple, those third-party apps that address weaknesses in the OS would have to be sold through the Mac App Store so that Apple gets a cut. I've been a Mac user since before there was a Mac App Store, and I've never bought such a utility through the App Store. I have paid for several such apps over the years in ways that did not generate any direct revenue for Apple, and most of those apps likely could not be distributed through the App Store because of how they muck around with private APIs and other OS internals.
Those third-party apps do increase the overall appeal of Apple's platform, but suggesting that Apple might want to encourage that situation rather than improve their OS themselves sounds like a broken windows fallacy.
XCode is one of the worst pieces of software in history. Imagine writing a code editor that couldn’t keep its syntax highlighting from crashing for multiple years.
It's not great, ofc. But I find myself less disgusted by it.
You must be a fetus. Apple was leagues ahead of everyone else with the inception of the Mac all the way through Windows 7...
Microsoft finally caught up around that time, but has since added a whole new dimension of enshittification that the only conclusion that can be reached about tech as a whole is that it all sucks and will always suck.
Here here
> Apple’s software is the best in the non-free software world compared to Google's or Microsoft's, IMO. But that doesn't mean it can't be better.
20+ years ago, software was so horrible that we were just tolerating it, and every new OS release was a big deal because there was hope things would get better! Today an OS release comes out and I have to be bothered by automatic "you must upgrade messages" to even care.
People forget how horrible it used to be, and if you still use windows, how much worse it could be when vs. Apple (and let's not get started on Linux).
I was using (and writing) software as long as 35+ years ago and I disagree with your assessment that we were “just tolerating it” 20 years ago. 20 years ago, I was using Mac OS X Tiger on a new Intel-based MacBook Pro and it ran like a dream, and had software which mostly followed Apple’s human interface guidelines. Now I run macOS Tahoe and curse under my breath at the lack of design consistency and the iPad-ification of the interface. I’m also shown ads, and in some cases ads that can’t be dismissed or disabled, for things like iCloud and Apple Music.
When it comes to the software, I’d take the Tiger experience over the Tahoe one hands-down.
I used 20+ years ago as a guideline, not an absolute. Of course the intel MBP came out in 2006 (or 2007?) and was an absolute dream setup where hardware caught up with Windows while the software was pretty good as well (I was using a Mac since 2004 or so).
I don't think software is improving today, which is why I have to be nagged to upgrade. I don't think it worse, but my computer usage probably varies greatly from yours.
> I used 20+ years ago as a guideline, not an absolute.
I understood that, and I was using it in the same way.
> I don't think software is improving today, which is why I have to be nagged to upgrade. I don't think it worse…
Yeah this is the part I was disagreeing with, and I gave a couple examples showing why it’s meaningfully worse now.
I’ve been using Macs since the 1980s. The timeframe of 20-25 years ago (post Classic Mac OS) was some of the best software Apple has ever released.
Maybe. I personally couldn’t afford to switch until 2004. And I grew up with PCs (well my first computer was an Osborne). Even then, it felt expensive and slow until the Intel switch.
Same here. Two decades ago, I was excited to install updates to commercial software I used because they fixed bugs and brought useful new features. These days I fear updates because they introduce new bugs, remove features I care about, and come with new anti-features that I actively do not want.
The macOS Tahoe release is a great example of this. I can't think of a single thing I prefer about it and could easily name ten things I hate about it.
> 20+ years ago, software was so horrible that we were just tolerating it,
Absolutely not, especially not on an Apple thread.
By example, the iPod released in 2001. Anyone who used those early knows the user experience was competitive with the current experience. In 2006, I was using the version of iTunes then which was probably objectively the best desktop music app ever created. There are features then that were just there, that were pioneered, or now absent, like an automatically sorted "least listened to" playlist that are now nearly impossible to find. Sync alone is still an headache the OS community just does on the side, and no one is even bothering to compete on it anymore.
Amarok was way better than iTunes in that era. Massively better UI, separation of playback queue from collection browsing, plugin ecosystem, better metadata fetching including lyrics support... And its dynamic playlists were way more capable too.
I had an iPod in those days and Apple's firmware updates that periodically broke third-party sync (while bringing no improvements) is the reason that to this day I've never bought Apple hardware for myself from Apple since that time. Used hardware only.
Every time I had to use iTunes was regrettable. The app was an insanely massive download for the time. It tried to install fucking Safari on Windows for no reason. The UI was somehow simultaneously a sprawling mess and feature-deprived.
Maybe there was a brief period where iTunes was genuinely an interesting app, but even by the mid-aughts, it had been totally surpassed by a number of open-source music players.
But Amarok at that time was only available on Linux. I assume most iTunes fans of the time never got to try it.
It's worst in case of freedom, which is the most important aspect for me. Every release they are slowly turning in the screws and make it harder and harder to install apps from developers who haven't jumped through all the hoops that Apple forces them to. I hope this change in leadership will change this strategy.
Google is worse. Most of their apps are cloud only with no E2EE. Also, they are much more user hostile when deciding what goes in the store (they make money off spying, but apple makes money off hw, so this makes sense).
Both those ecosystems are rapidly enshittifying (apple cannot even reliably process keystrokes with subsecond latency, and google is banning sideloading).
We need a third, actually user-serving and open alternative. Maybe the new CEO will slow or reverse the bleeding on the iOS / MacOS side.
Google has so far allowed installing apps without their explicit permission. So it's much higher on freedom index, imo. And there's no obligation to use Google cloud apps. There's alternative for every Google cloud app.
Also, Pixels have unlocked bootloaders and Android is open source to the point where third parties can and do make alternative OS distributions.
And it's necessary to have a second phone to actually use any of that while maintaining access to one's banking app.
The hardware is nominally open only because they enforce participation in their software ecosystem via other means.
> And it's necessary to have a second phone to actually use any of that while maintaining access to one's banking app.
Partially accurate / misleading at most.
I have a phone that can be unlocked, and I will lose access to my banking app (among other things I require) if I do so.
If your “partially accurate” objection is that I didn't describe a perfectly universal experience, I will be greatly disappointed.
Vouching your comment from dead to reply in good faith:
your bank’s app sucks, tell them they suck,
and or use the webapp.
Tens of thousands of financial institution apps work A-OK on GrapheneOS,
that is my objection.
That’s good to know. Is there a list? Maybe a vocal community of computer literate people with money could loudly move to banks that do work (regardless of which phone they have).
Apps with Google SafetyNet usage, and or Google Pay NFC dependency to start the app, two common failure modes.
What does “unlocked” mean, here?
Are we talking about root checks? Bootloader unlock?
That's like saying there's no freedom in USA because I didn't get a visa to visit. We are talking about the freedom of Google devices. And you are talking about banks not letting you install their apps on a non Google OS. Totally different things.
As a cross platform developer, MacOS is far buggier than Linux or Windows in my experience.
you mean `bugs i have as developer` or bugs reported by users of your xplat app?
Bugs in the OS I encounter as a developer.
P.S. even if it is buggier than Windows, MacOS has a lot fewer bugs than our app! We do encounter bugs in Linux, but they are almost invariably fixed in up to date distros. Unfortunately we are forced to support old enterprise Linux distros.
Huh, Windows?
Yes. I generally don't have to deal with the mess Microsoft has put on top of their bloated but solid kernel / base OS.
Safari is a shinning example of how wrong this is. Sorry.
The fact that they tie the mobile version to the OS version is just ridiculous.
not only Safari, several other apps such as Music (which also has several annoying quirks) never understood why they did not get their own lifecycle if they have dedicated teams for each of those apps
If you're interested, it's to reduce cost. It's incredibly expensive to build something like Music or Maps. If each version is tied to an OS version, it keeps you from having to explode your testing and fixing cycle over time.
This is especially notably when you want to support all the latest OS features.
My company keeps the testing cycle smaller by only adding new OS-dependent features to its mobile app when the minimum supported OS version gets incremented and a feature is supported in every supported OS version. That means that the iOS app is only now getting features that were added in iOS 15 in 2021.
So exactly why is that a big deal when unlike Android - they actually keep their phones updated?
It's a deal when they stop updating. It is true they provide OS updates for longer than most, but many people use devices, especially ipads for way longer than the OS supported period. And those people are stuck on an old unsupported browser without being able to update or install a 3rd party one.
As I said in another reply, Apple just did a security update for the iPhone 5s released in 2013 January of this year.
The latest version of iOS runs on iPads back to 2919.
The latest version of Chrome requires the version of Android - released in 2019.
So how is it better?
Chrome and Google being bad doesn't make Apple's restrictions good. That said, Android lets you install a 3rd party browser which can choose to keep supporting old devices. iOS locks everything to using the safari engine.
And the latest version of Firefox requires the version of Android released in 2017… is that really a win?
Unlike Android indeed, when you maintain a perfectly working phone that happens (by accident or force of nature) to live longer than the official lifetime some executives in a remote office had decided to grant it, the web browser cannot be updated any more. Just the single most security sensitive piece of software of any computer. Who would have guessed people were going to complain!
The iPhone 5s - released in 2013 - just got an update January 2026.
The latest version of Chrome requires the version of Android released in 2019. Even phones that old aren’t getting other security updates.
Is that really the argument you want to make?
They give occasional security patches for the most critical bugs. They don't do full ios/safari updates. The iphone 5s is on ios 12.
And neither does Google. The latest version of Chrome requires the version of Android released in 2019. The latest version of iOS supports my iPad released in 2019.
Their legendary "goto fail" debacle as well as the ease with which ios has repeatedly been jailbroken would disagree. I think geohot once quipped: "My lawyer could write a better malloc."
I much prefer the defect where the root password was the empty string [1].
https://security.it.miami.edu/stay-safe/sec-articles/macosx-...
[1] Actually, the defect was that creating a root account was a unprivileged action, so anybody could create a root account on your machine with a password of their choice. The most obvious presentation is that you could login to root by pressing enter twice with the empty password; the first time creating root with the empty password and the second time logging you in.
12 year old coding bug
https://www.imperialviolet.org/2014/02/22/applebug.html
Never understood that if statement style, it seems to only exist to create subtle bugs.
I think of it as BSD style, though of course it could be suggested/mandated elsewhere -
As I look, GNU guide is less specific, but examples[1] show the same style.The good thing is that -Wmisleading-indentation [2] (comes along with -Wall) catches this indentation error.
[0] https://man.openbsd.org/style - happens to be same for at least NetBSD.
[1] https://www.gnu.org/prep/standards/html_node/Syntactic-Conve...
[2] https://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/gcc/Warning-Options.html
It's slightly less lines of code which is nice. I'm someone who prefers terseness so I get it.
However, it's bad. I much prefer the rare, elusive, postfix if:
It can create some very readable code when used right, with short and simple conditionals.iOS (and MacOS) now use Google’s BoringSSL instead and have for many years
Do they? Based on what I’ve seen with a quick search, this doesn’t seem to be true
See e.g. https://developer.apple.com/documentation/network/creating-a... where the logging output makes it clear BoringSSL is what is used.
Or comments such as: https://github.com/apple-oss-distributions/Security/blob/rel...
Unsurprisingly, given BoringSSL doesn't have a stable API (yet alone ABI), it isn't exposed as a system library.
Seems like they use BoringSSL on their open source distributions, but their own library on their own platforms: https://forums.swift.org/t/native-implementations-and-boring...
CryptoKit isn't relevant to `goto fail`, which was the origin of this thread, given CryptoKit merely implements primitives and not TLS.
If you really are doubting what gets used for TLS, open up Console.app, start streaming, run `nscurl https://example.com/` (or load it in Safari, etc.), and you'll see logging like:
It really is boringssl which is nowadays used for TLS by the Network framework.iOS Safari definitely used BoringSSL last time I checked it with Frida
Dare we not look to Android.
goto fail was relevant in 2014 - perhaps not the most useful point in 2026.
I have not found this to be true for the software side of things.
- Apple Music's UI/UX is quite rough on MacOS.
- Trying to use my iPhone to type a long password on my Apple TV is hit-or-miss.
- For some reason trying to view a password using Keychain requires you to enter your credentials twice, every time, for as long as I can remember.
Most of the main apps on Apple TV shouldn't require a password anymore; you log in on your phone to authorize. The next Apple TV should simplify this further...
> Apple’s software is the best in the non-free software world compared to Google's or Microsoft's
You are comparing against the wrong thing.
Compare it to NeXTSTEP from 35 years ago:
https://infinitemac.org/1989/NeXTStep%201.0
NeXTSTEP was both more usable and better looking.
> Apple’s software is the best in the non-free software world compared to Google's or Microsoft's
But it's worst in the Apple software world compared to Apple's. In fairness, Microsoft has also been in steady tragic decline for a while. I don't know about Google.
I haven't really had to work with microsoft software but apple's software quality is abysmal beyond the OS (and even the OS has places that are a joke, like the bluetooth stack).
I'd rather use nano than having to write code on xcode.
Apple’s software has a kind of reliable predictability that many appreciate.
But “best” is far too strong a word.
For starters, most if not all their software can be described as simpler also-rans.
And in line with that approach, for a company that innovates in hardware, it does not apply that effort to software.
With two exceptions in the last two decades. The iPhone and Apple Watch operating systems & interfaces were very creative efforts. Which genuinely matched the hardware innovation.
Vision’s OS, on the hand, basically iOS-ified hardware that deserved to be treated like the first device to be positioned above and beyond the Mac. The natural interface doesn’t fall below the Mac’s, like a touch screen does. It fat exceeds it, given a keyboard-trackpad.
Instead, software wise, we get another media and toy kiosk.
I am stunned that Tim Cook didn’t see the opportunity to leave his mark with a device that took the capability crown further than the Mac, instead of falling for the 3D as cute feature un-vision.
Pro hardware. Toy software.
He has been a great CEO. But if he let Steve and his own legacy down anywhere, that is where.
That, the predictable but mostly stalled vision of software apps. And all the odd software glitches on all their devices that seem to keep cropping up, that suggest poor underlying models to me.
Their underlying systems software are a high point. The hardware integration is stand out.
The huge strike-out they made with the Vision Pro still blows my mind. I'm in the camp of people who would have possibly shifted my entire working setup to that thing if they'd made just a few less dumb choices with it, and it might have been worth it even at the high price. I still occasionally waste my time checking out the latest to see if they've made any headway towards making it useful, because I'm still recovering from the shock that they haven't. The only way I can see the current state making any sense is if they just wanted to squeeze as much field usage data as possible from early adopters of an overpriced prototype, but that seems so far outside of how Apple normally positions its products that it's hard to believe.
> I'm in the camp of people who would have possibly shifted my entire working setup to that thing if they'd made just a few less dumb choices
That describes me too. I even did for a while. But it just made the incomprehensible lack of any software ambition more painful.
The software is the only reason the Vision isn't worth the price. A real Pro OS, paired with an Studio M5-Ultra, or with its own M5-Ultra, would be an amazing work environment.
(The only hardware they would need to upgrade for the latter, i.e. its own Ultra, would be making live-battery swapping convenient. Which they should have already done.)
Google is much better at software than Apple...most in the Valley would agree with this.
Performance wise, they often seem solid.
Usability wise (UI/UX/design), they are in the gutter.
Google has one of the worst commercial UX of any products I've ever used.
It's uneven in my experience. OS-wise (Android, ChromeOS), I've had some big and frustrating problems. On the other hand, I really like some of their web apps (Drive, Docs).
For servers, yes, but use Safari for like 5 minutes versus Chrome and it’s clear the reverse is true for desktops, especially if you’re not running with 32+GB of RAM. Google Drive, Photos, etc. are not as good as Chrome.
This is not to say that Apple’s desktop software is great, only that the bar is a lot lower than it had to be when people had to be convinced to buy licenses.
Only if you put aside the fact that Google makes its money from selling your attention.
Their IMAP is okay, I guess.
Google software is trash
Ah yes, the company that still can't their gesture and backswipe UX functioning properly 7 years after its introduction, and with Apple giving them 2 years to study it beforehand.
A decade to produce a non-functioning gesture bar / system. Such a titan among titans.
> Google is much better at software than Apple...most in the Valley would agree with this.
Perhaps. Assuming it actually keeps existing:
* https://killedbygoogle.com
God, I miss Android so much. iOS still annoys me. The app situation is sadly better on iOS, though.
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I still prefer macOS to desktop Linux or (yikes) Windows, but the margin has gotten smaller over the last several years. Unfortunately, that's less because Linux or Windows have gotten that much better, and more because macOS has stalled (and even gone backwards in some ways).
Maybe 20 years ago, today it's no better than anything else - well designed in some aspects, total trash in others. The stewards of xcode, spotlight and siri (among many other stinkers) are disqualified from the category of "best"
Android and Windows are better than iOS and macOS in many non-trivial ways. They have their own problems too, but as a user of all of them I don't prefer the Apple software. Apple's hardware, on the other hand, is clearly superior.
what is most non trivial way example?
Android has a far better OTA update system than iOS. The notification system is much better and the default keyboard is better too. It supports multiple user profiles that you can switch between instantly, with their own separate apps and settings and home screens, a long requested feature for iPads that is inexplicably still absent on iOS.
Windows has a better desktop compositor and window manager than macOS. It supports Nvidia GPUs with CUDA. It also has WSL so you can use real package managers instead of homebrew.
"winget configure" is pretty great in Windows - you can store your personal .config file on GitHub and use it whenever you set up a new PC to install everything you want, uninstall all the cruft you don't want, and set all the Windows config you want via registry keys.
oh the horror stories I've heard from friends at Apple. Don't think I've heard anyone who writes tests at Apple
So, they’re just like every other software outfit.
and people wonder why they have random regressions in updates. this is it. unit tests and other types of tests are a cornerstone of software stability and does the bulk of the job of preventing regressions
What do you mean? Most if not all Apple's software is not even the best in their own category, let alone "in the non-free software world compared to Google's or Microsoft's". If we look at only these three and leave other competitors, you want to tell us that Safari is better than Chrome (Edge is the same now), Pages is better than Docs and Word, Numbers is better than Sheets and Excel, Keynote is better than Slides (arguably) or PowerPoint, Mail is better than Gmail or Outlook, iCloud better than Google Drive or OneDrive (ok lol), Facetime better than Meet or Teams, Apple Maps better than Google Maps or Bing Maps, Siri better than Google Assistant or Copilot... ?
Outside the two.. Fina Cut better than Premiere Pro or Resolve or Avid, Logic Pro better than Pro Tools or Ableton or many others, Motion better than After Effects, Pixelmator better than anything from Adobe or Affinity..
Come on, my dude. Only thing I haven't mentioned is OS only because that's a religion and I don't fall into MacOS one.
Apple's hardware game is strong. Software isn't, never has been.
Best in terms of what? Quality Control? UI/UX?
Presumably in terms of a conventional colloquial sense that's an amalgam of those among other things.
This!
Not necessarily UI / UX - the entire preferences -> settings change remains the best example. The rest seems pretty good.
> Apple’s software is the best in the non-free software world compared to Google's or Microsoft's, IMO.
Apple does xcode, known for being perpetually broken and an ungodly mess of whatever design it had. Isn't it enough proof to completely reject your claim?
In my opinion Android (especially the Google Pixel flavour) is vastly more intuitive and logical than i(Pad)OS these days. I almost need to consult a manual to change my wallpaper on iOS. Anything to do with file management or notifications is also just plain bad on iOS. The keyboard is bad. Background downloads don't work reliably. If I want to transfer photos from a computer onto an iPhone I need special software and then cannot delete those pictures on the phone itself. I can choose between 3 multitasking paradigms on iPad – terrible!
I'm not sure how you can think Finder is better than the alternatives. It's awful, and has always been awful, IMO.
It has one feature I wish everyone else would copy: Miller columns. But even after NeXT used them 35+ years ago, they have remarkably little penetration into other OSes.
I use Pathfinder on MacOS, and it's generally a lot better than finder, but there are features I wish would carry over from other OSes. Windows file check boxes are incredibly useful
Miller columns is the biggest waste of screen space that's possible in an OS, and MacOS chose it for Finder. And Apple has been dying on that hill for decades. It's one of the main reasons Finder is awful and Apple's design choices are a joke.
Apple could use a fresh approach to their software release cycles. I wish i could talk to someone at apple on this.
Have you seen xcode? Have you seen Appstore connect in comparison to Google play console?
> Apple’s software is the best [...] compared to Google's or Microsoft's
Honestly, that's such a low bar to hit.
Have you tried Siri lately?
It's really gone to shit in the last 2 years
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> Apple's software is the best in the [category of shit software]
I kinda agree with this. But that doesn't affect my statemente.
> Apple’s software is the best in the non-free software world compared to Google's or Microsoft
Apple's iOS is hot garbage. The macOS is not far behind on how horrible the UX is
what is better?
If you are reading Hackers News for the most part, you are out of touch with the normal computer users and that was said over and over again with the introduction of the Mac Neo which appears to be a hit among normal everyday computer users who have never heard of Hackers News, a family member recently just bought one of the new Mac M5 PowerBook's and I expected some cry for help setting it up. Guess what there was none.
In the answer to your question, there is nothing better overall across hardware and software top to bottom and that applies to computers, smartphones, tablets, and watches across five ecosystems.
I find it hard to believe this comment isn't sarcastic. Apple's software, atleast in particular macos, is horrendous - to the point I ditched my m2 macbook for a thinkpad because of how bad it was. It's like a toy OS.
Saying Apple Software is 'terrible' is a blatant hyperbole. Has it degraded meaningfully over the last decade in terms of stability? Yes. Has it's capability increased though? Yes. Has it become more secure by design? Yes. Is the UX better than anything else in market? By a country mile.
The UX used to be better by a country mile. The liquid glass update was a genuinely serious regression. Is Windows or Android now better? At least those operating systems don't have constant contrast issues and flickering. At this point they probably have more consistency.
MacOS reliability has slowly gotten worse and worse, but the UX drop with liquid glass was profound.
I don't agree with the whining about liquid glass. Sure, it isn't the design you like. But usability really isn't that different.
No, it's objectively bad in terms of usability. There is also the matter of taste, but I'm not even talking about that. I'm talking about UX, not style. UX is about functionality and usability.
Contrast is an objective measure. There are well studied and known levels where you can have trouble reading, or an easy time reading. Similarly, things like drag regions not even aligning with visual elements are literally indefensible. This stuff is so basic you'd fail a UX 101 course with it.
Things like spotlight defaulting to the newest item so that when you hit enter and it changes your selected item the millisecond before you hit enter. I'm not even sure how you'd try to defend UI elements literally flickering as either style or not affecting usability.
It's objectively bad by a great many widely agreed upon and studied standards.
Contrast was bad in the first couple bets, but now it’s very similar to iOS 18.
You're still reacting to the early beta, I think.
No, I don’t generally use betas. In fact the Liquid Glass release was the first time I DID sign up for betas, but only after the actual release because I wanted to get the fixes faster.
While they’ve improved some of the contrast issues, all the other issues I mentioned are there to this day.
I agree. MacOS became completely unusable with Liquid Glass, it totally feels like one of those amateur custom themes for Linux.
I hope the new leadership will bring back better software. As of now, macOS 26 is disgusting.
Let's hope John takes his job Siriously
Apple doesn't care about privacy, its a convenient USP.
They have behaved in a consistent matter to emphasize user privacy.
What makes you say they don‘t care?
> maybe a change in leadership will change how Apple participates in US politics
I think you're attributing a lot more agency to a CEO role (for a publicly listed company, at the least) than they actually have.
I’m gonna keep my expectations in check, but this would be a good opportunity to get back to live presentations. I just watched a 1997 Macworld recording and the audience has really been something that I missed since COVID.
https://youtu.be/IOs6hnTI4lw?is=2ZpwOgsBxfMkkloh
I miss the live presentations too, there's no tension or humanity watching a polished prerecorded video compared to someone having to demo live. It would also discourage them from pulling another Apple Intelligence fiasco and announcing a bunch of features they don't have developed yet. Though I'm sure they're more wary of that than anyone for the time being.
Maybe I'm being too hopeful but the MacBook Neo was announced at live presentations in a few cities around the world, and Ternus did the presentation at their New York event. Perhaps the guy is also partial to live presentations? It's not impossible that Apple mostly stuck with the prerecorded presentations because Cook didn't like the old way. I wouldn't say he's the most natural presenter, he always seemed a bit uncomfortable on stage.
When Cook took over, people expected him to fail.
I don't think even Steve Jobs would've been able to imagine that Apple can get this big.
To be honest, a lot of industry analysts were skeptical of Jobs' second coming. And when he did a deal with Microsoft, most of them thought they were right in their initial pessimism.
Over the time I developed the instinct to not take pundit's opinions too seriously.
Pundits... or might it just be that people can't predict markets and behavior without large error margins and compounding effects that magnify these errors further over time?
Guilty. I predicted they would decline, due to a lack of new products. I guess I was right in a sense, but I didn’t see the potential of optimising what was already there.
I also love the Vision Pro, actually, I think it’s brilliant, so that was an exception to the rule too.
Very glad to see this finally happen. It's been in the rumors for a while now that Ternus would be the next CEO but the timeline was uncertain.
I'm interested to see what Ternus' first few moves are and how much he will avoid (or hopefully embrace) reversing some of the things Cook is responsible for.
He has a long row to hoe when it comes to things like developer relations but from what I've heard, he is one of the best options we had for the next CEO.
> interested to see what Ternus' first few moves are
As it happens with most big corp c-suite transitions (see: Amazon), a lot of powerful executives will have to make way for the new CEO's chosen ones, and what those chosen few do (in lieu of asserting new found power) will dictate the short-term.
There were several exec departures in 2025, https://archive.is/JcYOY
Srouji stays to lead hardware, https://www.macrumors.com/2026/04/20/srouji-chief-hardware-o...
Someone archive the leadership page :) to be referenced 12 months from when John takes over
Done: https://archive.is/VtcPp
Prediction: Sundar will step aside and Demis will replace him.
(actually I doubt this- Demis does not want to run a big company whose main business is Ads)
The problem is that neither Sundar nor Demis are remotely as focused and competitive as Sam and Dario.
demis has always publicly stated he does not care about the business aspect as much as the scientific endeavor.
i highly doubt he will ever want to take over primarily what is an ad/small time hardware company in favour of taking away focus from his ai company
Tim Cook stepped down when he hit 65. Sundar has 12 years to go to hit that milestone.
Cook will handle the politics and optics, he will remain like a king representing Apple without any true power.
Ternus will be the soldier in the trenches.
I feel excitement for the future of Apple.
Say what you want of Tim and he might not be directly responsible for it but the M1 chip is the greatest achievement of apple since the iphone
They need to move all of the iOS boatware apps bundled with macOS to the app store so people can choose to uninstall then reinstall them later.
I appreciate what Cook did for the hardware, but he really failed on the software side. Too many little and annoying bugs. I look forward to Ternus improving that side while maintaining the same hardware quality.
I just hope they can bring back the live events for the product releases.
While I don't agree with many things Cook has done during his tenure, like the Touch Bar and removing the SD card slot from MacBooks, I have to admit the man knows how to make money.
I don't like that Tim Cook added the touch bar and removed the SD card slot, but you have to give him credit for also removing the touch bar and adding the SD card slot ;)
Hah, had a funny moment along these lines. SD vs MicroSD came up as a topic. I glanced down at my M3 MBP and said, “looks like MacBook Pros use the regular SD slot.” The guy solemnly informed me that actually, Apple had removed the SD card slot from my laptop. His face turned red when I turned it to show him.
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Nothing but respect for Tim Cook. I feel fortunate that a company as principled as Apple on privacy and human values holds a dominant position in computing and makes quality products. I once encountered him dining alone in Palo Alto, years ago. He struck me as a humble man, someone who happens to be gifted and has put that gift to good use. A beacon of light from Alabama. I’m grateful for his efforts, and hopeful that Ternus can carry the Apple legacy forward as the baton passes to the next generation.
I'm quite curious what Tim Cook's legacy will end up being.
There is no question many of Apple's business experienced significant, impressive growth during his tenure. Amazing capital efficiency.
There is also no question Apple lost product velocity. Few new products were launched, and those that were had mixed success.
Tim was, at the end of the day, an elite financial operator. Apple shareholders were lucky to have him. Customers like myself probably have mixed opinions, and it remains to be seen how he set the company up for the future.
Things he effectively presided over:
* Apple Silicon, the most far-reaching technical transformation in the company's history (probably a bigger deal than macOS itself)
* Apple Pay
* The Watch and Airpods product categories, both of which Apple now dominates.
All while holding on to its position in phones and improving (drastically) its computers.
It feels like a pretty successful term.
Tim was a great CEO.
I'm just pointing out product velocity slowed. I'm far from the first person to say it, it's just a fact. In the five years before Cook we got first generation Apple TV, iPhone, iPad, and MacBook Air. Your list spans 14 years.
One could add the Vision Pro, MacBook Neo, Mac Studio, HomePods, and so on to the list as well.
The reality is everyone just wants another hit product like the iPhone, but its success was based on it being a personal convergence device. You can't really create a second carryable/wearable convergence device and expect it to be wildly successful at the level of the iPhone without it killing off the iPhone.
So far that revolutionary approach by third parties has not succeeded against the iPhone, and the evolutionary approach apple takes with the iPhone means there is no clear inflection point anywhere in the future where the phone form factor goes away.
Yes, a very successful CEO and he secured a great legacy. I was skeptical when Jobs stepped down, but under Cook innovation did continue, but primarily in hardware.
Also the discipline in not blowing massive R&D chasing AI; but having the machines/architecture best suited to said AI...
> Few new products were launched, and those that were had mixed success.
Tim oversaw the launch of the Apple Watch, Airpods, Airtags, Apple Pay, the Beats acquisition (which lead to Apple Music) and the launch of the M series chips.
He's had quite a few product launches under his belt, many of them company-defining products.
The M series transition was perfectly executed, but that trajectory was set up before Jobs left when they went all-in on in-house semiconductor design.
Come on. Attributing a product to a guy that died 15 years ago instead of the guy running the company for the last 15 years is absurd.
Apple released their first in-house ARM processor 16 years ago, and the M series is descendent from that lineage and acquisitions that got them started in that business such as PA Semi and Intrinsity.
Cook absolutely deserves credit for the successful desktop ARM transition, but building ARM processors in-house was in no way something he directed as CEO.
PA Semi was acquired in 2008.
Jobs was likely very burned out on IBM failing to deliver a 3Ghz PowerPC G5 and one with a low enough TDP for a PowerBook.
So he switches to Intel because he needs chips, but the vulnerability still exists, and it's what happened again after the Skylake launch and the ensuing 4 years of terrible Macs designed for silicon that didn't exist.
Steve saw the danger, and probably acquired PA Semi because of it as well as the fact that PA Semi actually did deliver a power efficient PowerPC G5, even if it was a bit late.
Steve had the vision. Cook executed it very well. They both deserve credit.
His legacy is he used Apple to help build China into a technological powerhouse at the expense of American workers.
https://www.npr.org/sections/planet-money/2025/06/17/g-s1-72...
Can you say the same for tesla or cisco?
https://www.nytimes.com/2026/04/23/opinion/apple-tim-cook-ou...
Not to the same scale but yes. At least there are Teslas still made here.
With Apple it's the scale of what was done.
That's a pretty reductive take.
https://www.nytimes.com/2026/04/23/opinion/apple-tim-cook-ou...
To me, Tim Cook has turned Apple into a company that is both “doing amazingly well” and “in urgent need of a radical change in direction” at the same time.
We’ll see how the new CEO sees it.
FaceID, AirPods, Apple Silicon, Vision Pro (though it was flop was a good try). Overall, I would actually place Tim above Steve in terms of business, although maybe not from a Human Computer Interaction design novelty perspective
Tim Cook is a businessman who made the company bigger than Jobs could.
But he is not an aestheticist as much as Jobs was. See how Cook has been destroying the faces of iPhones and Macs, which had a huge dent or what is ironically called a "dynamic" island on the top of the screen. Back of iPhones is desparetely ugly.
Also he has not been presenting what makes us exicted. Apple's Siri is forgotten so that he has to rely on Google's Gemini instead of developing their own. While Samsung's Galaxy has been deploying its 7th foldable phone, Apple has done none. Leaks are usual so we can tell what he will show at its annual conference well before he acutually does and it gives us no surprise at all.
In a short term, "what Cook's Apple has innovated?" -- I guess zero. Rather, deteriorated.
As a long-standing user who started computer life with Performa 5220, keep using Macs as main machines and now run M3 MAX Macbook Pro to develop web apps, current Apple is never what I think it should be.
Making the company bigger is great. But what about their products and services? These are also where Cook has been leading to. He seems to forget Job's aphorism, "Stay hungry, stay foolish."
So I hope the new CEO changes the course.
>> Few new products were launched
I don't think this is true. Apple Watch is basically in a market of its own. iPad might have existed before Cook but he turned it into something people actually use for stuff. Vision Pro may not be a financial success but the tech is impressive and it's clear that work will pay off in the near term in other wearables. Apple Silicon is a phenomenal success. Apple TV is no longer a hobby and he's been at the helm while they've developed their entire services business. AirPods rule the headphone market. Not mention the numerous Mac variants he presided over.
What did they shut down? Aperture comes to mind, anything else?
Many of their acquired pro tools, and pretty much all of their server hardware and software, though much of that started before Cook took over. Plus the Mac Pro missteps were on his watch, as well as the current cancellation. Apple seems more and more unwilling to invest in niche hardware like the Mac Pro, except where they see it pushing the platform forward, like the Vision Pro.
Whoa, didn't expect the announcement to come so soon. Of course, the sound bytes were everywhere, but even then, this was a surprise announcement.
So, the Tim Cook era lasted 15 years (2011 - 2026). He's 65yo, and he could have easily hung in there for a few more years. But I believe he's leaving at the peak -- both Apple's and his own -- and this might be the best time to leave, rather than being forced out (as many too-long-in-the-tooth CEOs have been) when the company inevitably grows slower, or has a crisis.
Ternus is 50-51 yo, roughly the age when Cook himself took over Apple. There the similarities disappear. Ternus is a HW guy through-and-through. I hope he has solid SW and Design team with him. He's gonna need it, given all the big/small design snafus in the recent past. [Not including Mac Neo in there, which looks stellar by any means]
Wishing him luck; he's gonna need it. (and me too, my $$$ are invested in AAPL, and I ain't selling anytime soon, so well ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ )
Granted, 65 is probably a milestone for anyone. I think BMW has a hard stop for its execs at that age
Agreed... EU (and most countries, afaik) have age limits for CEOs, which I do support.
Though US famously does not, which is a curse in itself, IMHO.
Though tbh, it's worth wondering if Berkshire Hathaway without the Sage is still the same...
In retrospect, it seems Apple telegraphed Ternus well in advance - the NYT had an article well in January that clearly wasn't a source of friction with Apple Marketing.
https://www.nytimes.com/2026/01/08/technology/apple-ceo-tim-...
It's funny how yesterday's John's wiki article didn't even know his exact age/DOB. Now it's corrected :)
Some people might say Tim is leaving but he got himself promoted, just like Bezos. So, being an “Executive” chairman he’s going to be actively involved and be responsible, but not on daily basis and deep into each of verticals.
Also, going over his past statements as recent as during this year, it seems like he didn’t want to leave his CEO position, so he got forced out?
> Also, going over his past statements as recent as during this year, it seems like he didn’t want to leave his CEO position, so he got forced out?
I bet that was just good message management. The steadiest approach to a CEO transition is to make it seem a long way off until the moment it happens. Markets don’t like any wobbling at the top.
Tim Cook really set John Ternus up to succeed as incoming CEO. Apple has a huge constituency that needs to be reassured about this change: customers, fans/developers, wall street, and global political leaders. These are HUGE stakes and John needs early wins with each to be seen as a legitimate successor. Check out what wins he has coming in the next year-ish:
1. Hardware: OLED touchscreen Macs, foldable iPhone (2026) & 20th anniversary iPhone (2027). The message here is about flexing his strength in hardware.
2. Software: Snow leopard-like iOS27/macOS27 fixing a lot of Liquid Glass' rough edges. The message here is he's returning Apple to form with quality software.
3. Ecosystem: Gemini-powered Siri. The message here is he's getting Apple finally on track to meet the promise of AI.
4. Political context: A clean slate. The message here is placating the president (or anyone) is in the past.
The timing is interesting because Apple needed Ternus announced before WWDC27 in June, because that's when Gemini-Siri and Snow Leopard-OS strategy are both being unveiled. But they needed to delay it as long as they could so that Tim Cook could soak up as much Trump-chaos as was necessary. Now that polls and vibes show Trump losing support across the board, politically it's the safest it's ever been to announce this change, and still enough time before WWDC to suggest that what's being announced are his initiatives.
"(Apple’s Board of Directors): Looks like Tim couldn’t Cook. But maybe John can Ternus around."
https://x.com/tomieinlove/status/2046337143703007672
I don’t closely follow the news about Apple and now I’m wondering why they decided to go forward with this change at this moment.
As the world undergoes increasing supply chain issues, wouldn’t it be in Apple’s best interest to keep Tim Cook as CEO for a while? Or is he the one who’s looking to transition to a less demanding position?
Cook is also 65 and doubtless has more money than god. He's been a great success and it's not unreasonable to think he may have wanted to start riding into the sunset. Apple's wishes are irrelevant at some level.
I think supply chain optimization is untenable in a chaotic global trade environment. You don’t need to be an expert to buy from more suppliers and lay in a supply of stock. JIT falls apart when tariffs go from 20% to 120% to 15% based on whims and court cases.
Tim must have wanted to enjoy 4/20 without worrying about company drug testing.
He already had the trail of his retirement mapped out, and picked the perfect moment to blaze it.
Probably didn't want to sit through any more executive kowtow meetings with the Orange Man
Very happy about this news. I think he might could bring apple back to a innovation culture company again. Seems well balanced Jobs + Cook. Looking forward next 18 month of Apple. I already setup recurring investment for Apple in 2 months ago, finger cross
The NYT was right: https://www.nytimes.com/2026/01/08/technology/apple-ceo-tim-...
Plenty of people speculated that Ternus was the successor for a long time.
Thank you Tim Cook, as I am writing this on an iPhone.
Is this a golden opportunity to take on the software side of Apple, native apps like photos and messages, notes app? So much good data we give to Apple apps sit their idling, there is a play here to turn them into an independent playable artifacts and shared digital human network company. My friend emma has her snack Game on! I would like to get a snack list derived from her snack data. Yes, texting works but there is no programmatic way of accessing each other’s data. I believe this data needs be freed from Apple.
Apple’s privacy approach is stellar, that quest though is a prison where our data goes and does a slow death.
Big shoes to fill. Steve Jobs vouched for Tim Cook to be CEO…then Tim has been the CEO to see Apple become a global billion dollar company. This new CEO has been at apple for like 25 years (I think) so I’m sure he’ll do fine.
I do think Ternus being at Apple for 25-years (2001) is getting lost in the story.
It's also the year the iPod was launched, which capitulated Apple from near bankruptcy a few years before to then having the cash it needed to invest in R&D on things like transitioning to Intel, creation of iPhone, etc.
> Arthur Levinson, who has been Apple’s non-executive chairman for the past 15 years, will become its lead independent director on September 1, 2026.
What are these titles? Why? Who does what? It feels like a linkedin tea party.
There’s a lot of commentary to the effect that the Mac hardware is good, but the software is somehow terrible. Speaking as someone who first used a Mac Plus, graduated to an SE/30, and is now on a Mac mini m4 pro… I can remember when Macintosh was widely held to be an acronym for Most Applications Crash, If Not, The Operating System Hangs. The software has always been terrible, until you try the other guys’ stuff. The hardware has often been good, and is in a purple period right now. Enjoy it while it lasts! (It won’t).
My personal hope for John Ternus is that he relaxes some of Apple's anti-competitive bullshit to the point where the company is willing to make iPads actually useful for anything other than 2D drawing apps. As someone who has been daily-driving an M1 iPad Pro for five years, the iPad is the most glaring hole in Apple's lineup in terms of usefulness.
Yes, I get that the iPad is supposed to be a "casual computing device" or whatever. Yes, I know Apple has delivered significant improvements to iPadOS's capabilities in those five years. But using it still feels like wearing a straitjacket a lot of the time.
I'd love the m5 ipad pro (with some more RAM please), and just use macos on it
I have almost no use for the keyboard that's attached to my macbook. I use an external one. On the plane it's in the way. The only use for the keyboard is when taking it with me somewhere which is not my regular spot. And even then a portable bottomcase (keyboard+touchpad) would be great.. Basically an iPad
Now that the Microsoft exclusive has ended for Qualcomm (ex-Apple) laptops, upcoming Arm laptops from Dell/HP/Lenovo should be well supported by Google's unified ChromeOS+Android desktop, which includes a full Debian Linux pKVM VM with vGPU accelerated graphics. Plus the Nvidia-Mediatek Arm gaming laptops.
These new devices will combine Arm performance-per-watt, thousands of Linux OSS packages, ChromeOS desktop SaaS and Google Play Store touch-optimized local apps. Apple could compete by enabling MacOS and/or Linux VMs on iPad Pro, without forcing Pro users to jump through JIT-enabling hoops for iSH or UTM.
MacOS already runs on iPhone SoC in Macbook Neo.
For a long time I was hoping it would be Jeff Williams. For the brief moments these heads at Apple get the spotlight, I always felt he gave off a sense of humanity and sincerity.
situations like this should allow for relaxing the title rules to "unbury" the lede.
Yeah glad to see a hardware person take the helm and not a bean counter. The hardware is masterful now. Let’s keep it that way. Wonder if he kills the Vision Pro.
So John gets to announce the Fold comes september
And John Ternus will be CEO
It is a net positive to have a technologist and hardware leader at the helm. In this era, Apple can hire the right people to build software faster. but they need a strong hardware leader at the helm to differentiate themselves. In local AI, they have a unique opportunity, but limited window of time.
Tim has done an amazing job in the post-Jobs era with his logistics. Brought Apple from $350B to $4T. This move makes perfect sense as Apple needs to start their next chapter with how rapid the world is changing at the moment. I do hope Apple's values don't change going into this new era.
All FAANG except Netflix are trillion to multi-trillion companies now. And Microsoft too.
Tim is fine, but there are clearly other, more powerful forces at play than "Tim Apple amaze".
Sounds like a good choice. Glad to have an engineer in charge. Tim Cook is no spring chicken. I do hope Ternus maintains the focus on privacy.
That focus on privacy pisses off a lot of devs (Yours Truly, included), but I sincerely believe in it. I write apps that Serve a demographic that values privacy.
It's exciting to see that the new CEO of Apple is a hardware guy.
I was just thinking about what had been avoiding enshittification, and Apple's hardware was the only thing I came up. All other stuff, all products from Google, MS, Facebook, Twitter, and even Nvidia though the performance was improved has gone downhill. It's not only tech companies, but fast food, car manufacturers, real estate, and many others, if it wasn't shit from the start like consulting, healthcare, and marketing.
They have flaws, like not allowing users to repair the hardware, but well, at least it's consistent.
I really hope Apple (hardware at least) will remain free from enshittification.
I wish Apple would lean into gaming and create a competitive GPU system. Does not have to compete with a 5090, but 5070 level and game developers will come and port games. Huge untapped market. I still have to run a dedicated gaming PC just to play games (especially Flight Simulator).
I get that this year's iPhone will be marketed as the first under Ternus's overall leadership, but truthfully, we can expect next year's to have more of his mark, since I imagine most of the details for the iPhone 18 have long been done, dusted and set into motion.
I'm really hopeful about John Ternus stepping into the CEO role. Pretty much everything he's done leading Apple's hardware engineering has been an enormous unqualified success, and for a company like Apple, having hardware lead the company seems like the right step.
Wonder to what extent Craig Federighi was considered and what the decision-making factors were there.
Age, possibly. Ternus has 6 more years until retirement than Federighi.
To what extent do you think Apple software has done well under Craig's leadership?
He could have not wanted the job to begin with. CEO is no joke, and for him would mean to say goodbye to software forever.
I wish he would say good bye to software forever. Apple software is getting worse by the minute it seems.
Some design stuff are quite bad like the Liquid Glass, but the rest is fine I think. The M series wouldn't have gone as well as it did if software side wasn't up for the task
If Johny Ive stayed, he could have become CEO... Now he has to design Ferrari dashboards and AI Pins
> he could have become CEO
Oh that would have been a treat. He would have made Apple hardware so unusable for real work that I'd have switched back to beige boxes running Linux.
I'm sure he dreams about keyboards that are harder to type on and even more sensitive to dust than the emoji keyboards of yore.
"What a mediocre designer, I hear all he's ever one is a phone and some music player"
This entire thread is evidence of why hackernews crowd fails to make anything successful anymore, product or otherwise
What an absolute tragedy that would be for the world
"Designing AI Pin has been the greatest privilege of my life. I'd rank it higher than anything I did before"
You buy that? If he really did say that, it's just a mixture of cope and a passive aggressive attempt at a jab.
It would certainly be neat to hear if Apple can find the guts to do something interesting with new leadership at the wheel. As is, it feels like the entire company has just been a bizarre, indifferent stasis for near two decades.
The other day, I was watching a video by fpt.(@FrontPageTech) entitled Tim Cook is Leaving Apple from Mar 12, and honestly, seeing this news today, I had to go back and rewatch it again and it strikes hard on me, especially at the linked time (https://youtu.be/8xo4uG7YpJI?si=eHP5yyEOFGn85ajv&t=278). At 6:46, Jon Prosser said: John Ternus is the next CEO of Apple.
You may also be interested in this video where Jon Rettinger predicted that John Ternus will be the next Apple CEO. Goodbye Tim! A new era for Apple (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zbqLWZtdQTc)
This has been reported by Mark Gurman at Bloomberg since 2024. Those other outlets are likely directly or indirectly referencing this reporting.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-05-08/apple-s-n...
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/newsletters/2025-10-05/who-wi...
Pretty simple hot take:
This period in Apple’s history will be the cold ice bath post Jobs.
There may be serious fanboy energy to this but Apple has so much dry powder going for it still, and to put that in the hands of someone who actually builds, along with what looks to be a strong rumor mill year with VR stuff and the foldable to create a big tailwind… it seems like a pretty intentional move.
Also if they dropped one more subscription on us before expanding categories they might’ve caused an avalanche in lack of confidence.
Cook did an excellent job of raking in cash for bet the company size bets that he wouldn’t be guaranteed to see through. The dude is clearly a salt of the earth, values guy, should enjoy a proper retirement era.
Sad to see Tim Cook leaving as I was enjoying this downtrend of Apple products that is driving users to more open (and better) solutions like Linux PCs. I cross fingers for John Ternus to still be greedy and not being too competent.
when job of ceo is to make sure that policies around the globe don't interfere with business: "Cook will assist with certain aspects of the company, including engaging with policymakers around the world."
How long to the next ATP podcast?
I think they usually record on Tuesdays, so not long
“We broadcast most episodes live on Wednesday nights at 8 PM US Eastern time.”
https://atp.fm/live
I think this is also why they release so late in the week. News usually happens before they record.
That's a surprising and amazing decision. Putting a key element of the hardware side of the business at the head of it might lead to a some amazing hardware upgrades and innovations! All for it
they replacing person doing horizontal scalability with vertical.
do they predict problems of some sort - like lost of ability to small down transistors for a while or supply chain disruption(increased prices of components sourcing)?
China is effectively run by engineers, so that is a good hedge for Apple.
I have used Macs since the Classic era. My best Mac was a PowerBook G4 that could run Windows on a VM faster than most Windows machines at the time. My first MacBook was brilliant, but I have noticed a decline since then. My 6-year-old MacBook Pro really struggles nowadays, whereas I remember a time when people proudly said their 10-year-old Macs were still snappy even during rosetta. Currently, Linux is the preferred choice for work. Windows 11 Enterprise is not bad when stripped of all social, news, and 360 ads overhead, but Microsoft is really trying hard to mess it up there too.
Edit: 6 years old, not 4, and also Intel Macbook, so due an upgrade for sure
Your M2 MacBook Pro really struggles? That is genuinely crazy, given that I use one as a daily driver and it feels just as fast as the day I bought it.
I think the Apple Silicon transition has increased Mac longevity far beyond the Intel or PowerPC eras, and I am quite baffled you think otherwise.
You’re right, it’s 6 year old, so a dinosaur by technology standards! I see your point.
Is it an Intel MacBook? I think those sucked for obvious reasons outside Apple’s control (Intel getting stuck at 14nm for ages) which they’ve already fixed (by abandoning Intel).
The M1 MacBook Air was more powerful than the top Intel i9 MBP config if I recall correctly.
So, John Apple?
Johnny Apple Seed references incoming…
Can't believe they didn't rehire Gil Amelio.
Apple hardware has been a shining light for Apple for the past 5-10 years, even if a bit lucky. I’m curious how this effects the company as a whole going forward, hopefully positive
If the CEO comes from hardware, it suggests Apple still believes its long-term moat is integrated hardware + silicon + software, not just services.
Earlier than I expected. Seeing that Johny Srouji got promoted as well, this reshuffle might have been a way to make sure he stays for a few more years as well?
Like Sam Altman, Tim Cook makes me think that what we fear in AI is already here. These two guys are corporate robots that act only in the service of the bottom line.
I'm not sure why so many people seem to think Apple software is terrible, I recon it's quite good personally, what's the issue with it?
Example of bugs, posted last month on HN: https://www.bugsappleloves.com/
Do you have any specific questions? The request for "what's wrong with Apple software" is about the size of a Wikipedia page to answer and what people are saying in the comments seems quite clear to me. Since you're referring to comments, but none in particular, I'm not sure what parts you want an elaboration on. It might also help to just ask in a thread that has information you find unclear
It has become very buggy in recent years. Lots of glitches. And the liquid glass fiasco didn’t help.
Historically there were so few bugs in Apple’s software that to encounter even one was a jarring experience. Now they’ve reverted to the mean, and it’s just as buggy as Windows or Android. So if you’re comparing with them, no big deal. But compared to Apple standards we’ve fallen a long way.
I see, as someone who recently came to Apple (about 2 years ago), from Windows and Android, Apple software seems pretty good, like above those.
You mean the underlying code or the defect rate?
Just my experience with how responsive/buggy it is.
Ah, I read that as “started working at Apple.” Ha.
For me this is the perfect timing. Just this week I was fed up with my iPhone (and most of the Apple ecosystem) and bought a Google Pixel 10 Pro.
John Ternus is the perfect choice. I expected Craig, and that would've been great, but Ternus is going to really be something special in that role!
Why would Craig have been great? macOS usability and quality has suffered greatly under Craig.
Any chance of a future where hardware can be customized at the design stage, like 3D printing but taken to an even higher level, even for 1-off builds? So prompt-driven manufacturing? For example, a watch with a USB-C port?
One day that watch could be your only PC. And then some type of eyeglass for a screen. Can also do "terrain overlays" Terminator style. I suppose battery power is the bottleneck so maybe long-distance wireless power delivery is the key (as what Tesla originally created.) So no battery at all.
Apple is good at hardware, they need help with software. I hope putting a hardware guy in charge can still improve this situation.
Well, if I was Apple, I would not put one of their software guys into the position since the software leadership team has been ineffective. So either hire externally (crapshoot) or promote internally. It makes sense. Hopefully the hardware guys will knock some sense into the software leadership and impose accountability in that arena.
Could this be Apple's chance to finally stop dragging its feet and integrate AI deeply into its OS?
Why is this necessarily a good thing?
This will be the first time Apple has had an engineer as CEO. I'm excited to see what this brings.
Apple needed a "AI CEO". Hopefully John Ternus is Apple's "AI CEO". That is the win-vs-lose.
Apple included.
Apple accidentally has a giant moat in having the only hardware that can run AI models locally on consumer products, plus not having thrown a huge pile of money into the tar pit of model training, which is ultimately becoming a race to the bottom with identical products, perfect competition, and razor thin (currently negative) margins.
They're gonna be fine in the AI age just like Costco was able to be a honey badger about e-commerce.
Big day!
Least understood yet most influential company in the history, present and future of the venture capital backed tech world.
I know the rumors were swirling for the past few months, but just 4 more months of Cook seems like pretty short notice, no?
Consider that is mostly public headway. Behind the scenes the handover, mentorship, alignment I am sure was already happening for a while. E.g. you probably don't want the incoming CEO to have to immediately clean house or people might end up doubting their decisions, getting anxious or similar. The previous CEO can start retiring, moving people around to clear out possibly problematic leaders, break up internal "gangs" and ways of work - people will be more willing to accept their decision as they've been at the head for a while and have the trust. The new CEO comes in, group dynamics and rules are still fresh and building up between everyone, they don't have a black mark for firing anyone - to me it just feels like it would be a healthier and more mature transition.
To support this I was thinking about (and obviously Googling these names because I definitely don't know them by heart, only that they recently left) the change of CFO Luca Maestri to Kevan Parekh, John Giannandrea being removed, Alan Dye leaving and being replaced with Steve Lemay.
So I take those 4 months more as like an FYI to the public than anything else. Though I am definitely not someone that knows corporate politics all that well (or at all), just mostly thinking out loud in response to your comment.
Yup. The rumor mill was talking about a CEO change for a while, and around the time you saw the rumors building you saw the departures you mentioned. Ternus was being mentioned as the likely successor at least back to November last year. So internally the shifts have already been happening for some time, only observable on the outside via the high profile departures.
In 2021 the average time from announcement to new CEO for S&P 500 companies was 3.5 months, so this seems reasonably normal.
[0] https://www.spencerstuart.com/research-and-insight/2021-ceo-...
Given how quickly Cook had to step in for jobs, first in the interim role, four months seems like plenty of time (particularly given he's still executive chairman).
4 months in his _current_ role, but he’s not going anywhere—he’s remaining on as Chairman, which is still very much involved day-to-day.
Not really. Anyone and everyone is replaceable. Even Steve Jobs.
I appreciated John Gruber's piece on this: https://daringfireball.net/2026/04/another_day_has_come
Good riddance to an effective CEO whose entire legacy will be tarnished by a giant, gold-plated asterisk.
The end of an era! I think Ternus will bring a long-awaited fresh perspective.
Bring back the keynotes. I want to hear people cheering and booing again.
About time. Hopefully we can see some meaningful hardware improvements in the coming years.
What is wrong with the hardware now? iPhone 17 series is great, Macs have no competition, Apple Watches lead in accuracy.
Me thinks Apple software is the problem—I put Asahi Linux on my Mac.
No issue performance-wise but I wish there was more innovation, especially with the iPhones. For example, I was really impressed with Samsung's privacy screen demo.
The iPhone is fine, but I find them to be... boring. The SoCs are very good, but they don't have the best cameras, the best batteries, the fastest charging, the most innovative displays, etc. Apple isn't pushing that hard there.
Anyone else notice the header text gets cut off on mobile? On an iPhone 17 no less...
Can't reproduce on an OPPO, funnily enough.
I believe his name is Tim Apple
And his successor John Turnip.
wow… I didn’t expect this. My guess would have been after the current administration.
Why so soon?
Yeah, I thought Cook would stay on until the end of the Trump-admin in order to keep ‘swallowing the dead rats’ so that the next CEO would have a clean plate.
Midterms Nov, so it’s all about to be over - either trump heads towards impeachment, America doubles down on its descent, or democracy ends. Either way, not point hanging around after that. If he’s impeached there’s a fresh start. If he does well, then this regime isn’t going anywhere for the long term. If the elections aren’t free then better get used to it.
So nothing further to wait for,
Can not believe no one has asked the obvious question - is his nickname Tina ?
RIP Tim, the best derivative by the book uninspired machine to ever do it.
Maybe Mac Mini M5 this year?
Putting the hardware head at the times of AI. Great decision.
Will it change Apple's extreme bend into lock-in for the better?
If Apple really wants to keep their long term users in its ecosystem, it should really drop stupid Liquid glass design, stop making macOS look like its mobile OSs, and bring skeuomorphism back, which was removed by John Ive.
I disagree. They should bring quality back before reintroducing more changes. Okay, maybe that means dropping Liquid Glass. But also readopt the HIG. Increase stability and performance and reduce attack vector.
John Ive was the catalyst for the horrible UX that macOS has now.
Wonder how much of this decision has to do with the current climate and not wanting to deal with the current head. I was quite disappointed to see cook towing the line and bending the knee, let’s see what Ternus will do
Finally John Apple
Is it only me or we want an iPhone mini back?
Apple software about to get better and better :)
Anyone know why?
Tim gifted Donald a trophy 8 months ago doing his legacy no favors. You wouldn't do this if you knew you were on your way out. Makes me wonder if something happened between August 2025 and now.
Or something is about to happen.
You give a trinket to a near dictator in order to not have your company, which you're responsible for, dragged over the coals and attacked by a psychopathic goverment. In the grand scheme of things this was a completely genius play and did no harm to anyone.
That's a reasonable take - Apple had a gun to their head regarding tarriffs and exposure to China, but I'd still love to know how Steve would have played the same hand.
Committing $100M to U.S. manufacturing is pretty good for one's legacy, I'd say.
[dead]
I hope they will turn Siri around with these changes.
He is proof that LinkedIn doesn't matter.
Will this change their AI strategy (or lack of)
Like blowing hundred billion dollars for undifferentiated technology?
Do.you.think.he’ll.fix.the.usability.issues?
I don’t use either Apple Maps or Google maps in a car on the move at all. I just listen to music or podcast.
I don’t need the distraction.
I always thought Craig would become CEO.
If you compare the trajectories, I think it’s safe to say software has been a dumpster fire under Craig compared to what’s been accomplished on the hardware side. The fact that Craig has been the face of WWDC for many years made many people see him as the face of the company but it’s been clear they have been elevating Ternus’s visibility in product announcements for a few years now.
This would not be on The Successor
He is 50 and been in Apple almost all his working life. Is that not a mono-culture risk for a CEO?
What if, right after Tim is gone, all the leaks of iPhone designs and colors stopped?
I'm just askin' questions.
What are you suggesting?
Oh finally! Ternus is at least fun to look at during keynotes so we have that to look forward to.
Why is the photo so blurry?
Maybe it was edited by Apple Intelligence.
Oh wow, it's much clearer now. Guess it was a mistake lol.
Apple is currently lightyears ahead in privacy compared to any other major consumer tech company, is this going to still be the case with Mr. Ternus at the helm? That's not a question meant to be answered right away, but my current mindset evaluating the change in leadership as a consumer.
EDIT: Also, can Apple take over the data center already? I am sick of HP and Dell.
I'm looking forward for all the Temu jokes we're going to see.
John Apple, gotcha
Tim did cook well!!
Suggest changing the title to include both parts, if they fit: "Tim Cook to become Apple Executive Chairman, John Ternus to become Apple CEO"
I'd go with "John Ternus to become Apple CEO[, replacing Tim Cook]"
the bit in brackets ain't even necessary since we all know Tim is the CEO
Tim Cook will be one of the legendary CEOs in history.
he knows when to be conservative - and knows when to push hard.
qualities very few CEOs have shown to have in practice.
all his contemporary competitors have ridden on certain waves e.g A.I to increase company valuation - while he did sorely on just pure operations not hype.
Maybe MAC mini M5
I have to admit, regardless of whatever opinions you may have on Apple, Tim is/was probably the best bug tech CEO in the sea of evil ones out there, or evil and grifters, he remained focused on what’s the best might be for the users and also the company.
At least John has an engineering background, been with company for couple decades and not some private equity/hedge fund/wannabe Steve Jobs visionary douchebag.
Personally, I have lost all interest in Apple and been slowly switching off their hw/sw/saas for some time.
can't believe craige is not the ceo
Please, do not make the products any thicker!
RIP apple
Good luck to him. If he was behind the Neo, then he deserves the post. That's the perfect new product in the mac world.
Tim saw the ram shortage and said, "WTF am I suppose to do with this? I'm out of here!" Better leave a hero ...
Wonder if Trump will call him John Apple.
Surprised that someone from Gen X is getting the opportunity to lead a company of this caliber. We've spent most of our adult lives getting smothered by Boomers and Millennials.
Thanks for making all that money, Tim. Now please retire. Please.
Google is gen x.
And Microsoft. And Netflix. And Uber.
I'm perplexed by the assertion, unless it was some joke that went over my head.
I for one am happy to see an engineer at the helm.
"Tim Cook to become Apple Executive Chairman"
*John Ternus to become Apple CEO*
Talk about burying the lede, lmao.
Yeah. Can we get a title change please?
Among the dup stories submitted, this one has the best content but the worst title.
So now in charge will be John Apple, got it.
@dang can we fix this to mention John Ternus becoming CEO
This is one of the more broadly normal HN-reaction threads to large public news event I've seen in a while. A lot of love for Apple, respect for the decision, and respectfully stated nuance. Surprising and good.
I still haven't scroll down to the bottom, I don't want to spoil my impression. But it's great to see a positive reaction. Good way to mark the moment. Tim has been CEO for 15 years roughly, since Steve's passing. This guy seems much younger than Tim was when he ascended. I hope he really takes it to the next level.
Got a feeling that Apple has some Amazing new hardware category-making products coming out of the 'skunkworks' over the next 3 years.
I don't intend to be a contrairian purely to be one, but Apple is the same company that (to paraphrase) wanted to "see Saurik cry".
This being hackernews, I hope to be excused for siding with a white hat code-hacker over a trillion dollar corporate.
(And that's not getting into all the other morally questionable stuff they've done.)
trying to find the context, saurik seemsto be Jay Freeman[0], known for Cydia[1]; i'm guessing apple was 'unhappy' about his work around software for jailbroken iphones, but nothing immediately popped up, what did they do?
oh i guess it's from a court hearing[2] when his company was suing apple over app store monopoly ("... they are talking about an iOS update that, quote, broke Cydia Impactor. Where they said, it feels too good to destroy someone's spirit. We did something else today that will kill him again with a little smiley emoticon.")
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jay_Freeman [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cydia
[2] https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/18730843/75/saurikit-ll...
Yeah thanks, I think that's the right quote.
I think I found the original comment I had read (featuring a reply by saurik himself): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43853055
Forget about saurik; they wanted to countermand their own customers using his code to do things on their own phones they bought from Apple.
The contempt for their customers is palpable these days.
How dare you insult the forty gazillion company! Stand back ma'am I'll protect you from this handsome hacker ruffian!
Jokes aside, I have started to see Microslop as the lesser of two evils (two evils being MSFT and AAPL, Google being its own parallel universe abomination). Their commitment to backward compatibility really paved the way to cheap PCs for the masses. That said, every day Macroslop is working diligently to prove me wrong.
Microsoft doesn't give 2 cents now on desktops and desktop software. They care about selling cloud and cloud products.
Since they can't charge a subscription for Windows (like Adobe does for its products), they don't care about it anymore.
Do they no longer charge annual licenses for Windows Server?
On that topic, it’s always surprised me just how little Apple invest into their enterprise / business backend services. Everything about the way they integrate Macs into businesses is awkward. Apple could make so much money there if they wanted to. It’s a real missed opportunity.
>On that topic, it’s always surprised me just how little Apple invest into their enterprise / business backend services. Everything about the way they integrate Macs into businesses is awkward. Apple could make so much money there if they wanted to. It’s a real missed opportunity.
Agreed! My $DAYJOB is an Apple shop and the Apple "Business" offerings are horrible. No support for a proper business developer account is annoying. A single human is responsible for this and when that human moves to a different company or role then you have to reassign the account to a different human. Configuring SSO is another trap. You have to capture a domain to add SSO but after you do that your users can't access the Apple App Store (for some reason).
There are so many places that Apple could improve their "Business" business, but they seem hell bent on not doing that. Maybe Mr. Ternus will address this issue.
The issue is that nobody (relatively speaking) uses Windows Server.
I don’t even think Microsoft is all that adamant that their customers use it.
It’s just not competitive with Linux and that ship has sailed. Linux is better and costs $0. Microsoft lets you run .NET applications on Linux and they’re better there.
I think the same thing happened with SQL Server. Nobody’s choosing it for new projects, its niche is basically legacy software.
I agree that Apple is missing an opportunity with business and enterprise but I think the issue is that they’re so far behind that catching up would be a massive investment that might never pay off.
This is similar to saying that Microsoft missed an opportunity with smartphone ecosystems. They could spend billions on getting a smartphone back on the market and it would arrive and everyone would ask the question “why am I buying this when my iPhone has X million apps on its store and is a nearly perfect device?”
If Apple Enterprise Cloud was available today who is switching and why? Apple would have to undercut established players to convince businesses to switch via a massive migration effort.
I work with fortune 500 clients, and all of them use Windows server for something. Usually a lot of somethings. For example: Active Directory.
If we look at Microsoft's revenue I think it's pretty clear that they do in fact care an awful lot about Windows Server - or at least should.
In fiscal year 2025, Microsoft Corporation's revenue by segment:
I don’t think this is clear at all because the segments are lumped together and highly unclear.
What’s the difference between “server products and cloud services” and “server products and tools?”
I assume the former is Azure and the latter is on-premise.
In that case if we lump 365 in with server products and cloud tools then it shows that 2/3 of the enterprise revenue is going to cloud and 1/3 is on-premise (and I assume that 1/3 is declining over time)
You only need a couple of Active Directory and Exchange servers here and there. But who's using IIS or SQL Server these days? Sharepoint also seems to be on a downturn.
IIS was always the black sheep of web hosting. Nothing has changed there.
Windows Server is used for more than just directory services and web hosting though.
> Linked In Corporation: $17.81 B
Hwat? How does LinkedIn generate revenue (as much as "Windows")?
All recruiters get paid accounts.
> If Apple Enterprise Cloud was available today who is switching and why?
Not sure about others, but I would switch if it meant I no longer needed to rely on Google Workspace.
You’re talking about LAMP-type set ups and I’m talking about Windows Desktop integration services. Smaller orgs will use cloud services but many larger organisations, colleges, and the like will likely have a fleet of Windows servers running in VMs (traditionally VMWare but that might have changed since Broadcom bought them).
However if you do want to talk about services outside of fleet management, then there are plenty of niches where Windows Server has a surprising foothold. Though typically they’re domains which haven’t been disrupted by “tech bros”, which is why you don’t read about it much on HN.
> This is similar to saying that Microsoft missed an opportunity with smartphone ecosystems.
They did. But we are talking specifically about fleet management and not any random tech-adjacent industry.
> If Apple Enterprise Cloud was available today who is switching and why? Apple would have to undercut established players to convince businesses to switch via a massive migration effort.
The existing players only exist because Apples default offering is basically non-existent. Apple wouldn’t need to undercut them, just be comparably priced. The reason being that if you already have a business account with Apple then you don’t need to go through the pan of getting a new supplier approved by the board (etc).
As for existing businesses, if they’re already large enough that fleet management is a concern then they’re large enough to have people on payroll who manage that fleet. And thus to perform that migration. It might even be part of their laptop refresh program.
And if Apple had an enterprise fleet management service then they’d be able to offer tools that are locked to their fleet management (eg remote wipe). Which would heavily incentivise businesses not to go with 3rd parties.
I get the impression they care very much about windows because they can sell ads on it.
Why can't they charge a subscription for windows? It could be only a small yearly fee.
Because Windows is a garbage product and they would quickly wipe out its userbase by doing that.
It's primary benefit is that it comes free with the laptop they bought on Amazon.
Once there's friction there, it'll make other friction seem less bad.
Maybe they could find another way to market it, e.g. Windows is free but with ads, and there is a subscription which makes ads go away. Or something else. Some creativity is needed.
I don't disagree. A big reason 2026 is the Year of the Desktop Linux is that MSFT lost any interest in the Desktop PC platform. Outside selling more of my data and filling it with AI Slop.
But if, say, AAPL had won the PC wars, we'd be staring at a much more locked-down, much more expensive OS experience.
4 kings.
Wipe if you think you can do better :) It can and has been done.
4 horseman, you're welcome.
Apple basically spearheaded the war on general computation. Before them, phones used to be more or less open, Apple cracked down on that very quickly.
Well, before Apple, most phones were appliances with fixed software; there was no openness to speak of. That said, I wish they hadn't continued this trend and instead took inspiration from Windows Mobile.
Sure, at the start, yes.
But then came Java and Wap. You could, in theory, download a jar from a site and try to run it. God knows if it would run. But it wasn't a locked-down app store that bypassing would land you in hot water.
Before iphone mobile phones were running Java applets, which were sometimes even compatible across different phone manufacturers and users even could exchange them over infrared. In contrast first iPhone initially had no support for third party software, only web apps.
> Before iphone mobile phones were running Java applets, which were sometimes even compatible across different phone manufacturers and users even could exchange them over infrared.
"Sometimes" doing a lot of heavy lifting.
Nokia had an app store, and before you could see the available apps you have to first choose your phone: because even with-in Nokia's own product range there was so much variation in screens, keyboards, and general capabilities that they had to pre-apply a filter to show you what would actually work.
Functionally nobody was doing any of those things.
Before them, phones used to be more or less open
Wow. Just… wow.
Excuse me while I get permission from sixteen levels of managers inside Cingular, U.S. Cellular, Cincinnati Bell, PrimeCo, and the fifty different regional carriers calling themselves "Cellular One" to offer my app on their networks.
I'm not claiming that iPhones are open to the extent that HN griefers want it to be, but you must have been freshly hatched in the years before the iPhone to think the ecosystem was open.
I say this as someone who developed some of the first mobile phone weather apps. (Before "app" was even a word.)
Or, you know, there's more than one country in the world.
I could flash my Nokia 6210 with whatever firmware I wanted, but I guess that doesn't count, because Nokia and Ericsson aren't American companies.
I may be guilty of the same thing you're mentioning (I'm in the USA), but my Nokia 6210 came with a carrier lock and I wasn't even able to visit websites via the WAP browser unless my carrier approved of them because WAP acted like a sort of mandatory vendor operated proxy that allowed them to see and filter everything the phone did. They would, for example, filter out websites about ringtones to try and force you to buy theirs for $0.99/piece.
My experience with a Nokia 6210 was very much the opposite of what you describe.
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It was exactly like the GP described in the UK too. All-powerful carriers at a time when Apple was almost bankrupt, before Google was a verb and before Microsoft made phones that would crash just sitting waiting for a call.
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That's very much a product of the American oligarchy
And yet it happens in dozens of other countries that are not America.
You may be surprised to learn that the whole world is not Europe. The colonial era is dead.
with Apple, MSFT and Google at the forefront
None of those companies had phones in the era we're discussing.
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I guess that doesn't count, because Nokia and Ericsson aren't American companies.
The discussion is about Apple. Which is an American company.
But if taking discussions off-topic is what gets you off, have at it.
> Apple basically spearheaded the war on general computation. Before them, phones used to be more or less open, Apple cracked down on that very quickly.
Hopefully the Neo is the beginning of Apple making useful and affordable products for all users, instead of walling their garden to squeeze out every last penny via Cook's 'premium'-upwards-screwdriver tactics ... the history of market-dynamics suggests otherwise, but let's hope and wait there's a mindset change as well.
I think it might be the opposite. You make cheap products for everybody because you are going to make money off subscriptions. Personally, I think it's a reasonable strategy, but it might mean they lose their focus on high-end craftsmanship.
> craftsmanship
What marketing does to people
>> craftsmanship
> What marketing does to people
I'm sorry, are my MacBooks Pro, Air, and (my spouse's) Neo not some of the best built laptops you can buy? Maybe there's something better, but these are inarguably some of the best. Absolute top of the line.
See the Verge (I think) reviewing similarly priced laptops priced around the Neo. They were plastic crap, even if they had better specs elsewhere.
the M line of macbook pro's are beautiful, well crafted, long lasting machines.
MacOS might not be your preferred way of working, and you might prefer cheaper options or USB-A ports, but there is really nothing you could arguably call bad craftmanship in those machines.
>> nothing you could arguably call bad craftmanship in those machines
my 2 bad craftsmanship cents:
laptop keyboard leaves marks on screen. laptop's sharp edges leaves marks on wrists.
> laptop keyboard leaves marks on screen.
I don't think this has been a thing in years.
Sharp edges on wrists is true.
It definitely is a thing on my M2. Unsure if it is something that was fixed in the later models.
My wrists, conversely, are fine, but I suppose I rarely use it in a 'classic' desk position that would cause that.
My 2023 MBP's keyboard leaves marks on the screen while closed.
..from the company that brought you "You're holding it wrong", not just bad but dumb
In addition to the sibling comment, I would point out the touch bar was poor craftsmanship and the butterfly keyboard was also poor craftsmanship. They both are addressed now, but there were several years where we had to live with them.
Their software craftsmanship has really suffered in the last 10 years.
I thought the touchbar was pretty neat, it was just a mistake to replace the function row with them. It also was hard to get adoption because it wasn’t available on desktop Macs or their cheaper laptops so developers had no incentive to really do anything interesting with them.
I think a better implementation might have been to have it be an alternate mode for the trackpad and sell external trackpads that also had it so it could be used everywhere. But I get why that didn’t happen, the touchbar was basically being run with a mini Apple Watch SOC built into the MacBook Pro, and it’s primary use was to have the Secure Enclave on it. The touchbar itself was a deal where they could find a use for having an otherwise idle smartwatch’s worth of computing power in there, but that wouldn’t be doable if it’s sold as an external device.
they're very well designed and built products, craftmanship is something else.
What is it?
They are mass produced in factories, not made by craftsmen.
I mean, they're not bad, but they have spicy chargers, the corners are uncomfortably sharp, the keyboard often doesn't register, the LCD is prone to vertical bars and other issues even without physical damage and is extremely sensitive to bumps and other minor damage elsewhere on the laptop (not even the display itself), and so on.
Some of these are consequences of what makes them feel "premium" or even "solid". Aluminum is a terrible material for bumps and drops because it dents, and that often damages the internal components.
I've never bought a Mac, I have used them for work. They are the best built laptops on the market, bar none. Too bad their OS is awful. Its not just marketing.
Have you used Windows?
what does Windows have to do with this? It sucks as much as MacOS
Have you actually looked at apple products and compared them to the competition? The different in quality of finish is really stark in my experience. Some other manufacturers have some products which have some nice features. Whatever you think of the software or ecosystem, almost Apple hardware is just nicely made.
Neo is a good product, but they're making their better products (Macs) more out of reach for a whole class of customers.
Is that really true? The price of Macs today is far lower than it used to be when adjusted for inflation. I know this is true of all computers, but you can get a really good Mac computer without spending a lot of money, historically speaking.
The Macbook Air, the best computer for most people, starts at $1099. I paid something like $2,700 for my computer, which I brought to college in 2002. That's about $5,000 in today's money.
Mac Mini is a stellar product...
> making useful and affordable products for all users,
Affordable, ethical. You can only choose one.
Interesting, but is Apple as ethical yet as its premium price point could suggest? Fairphone (material sourcing) and Framework (repairability) would suggest otherwise.
Honestly i think it will bifurcate. More Neo more high end
I'd say a bigger difference is that Jobs casts a much larger shadow than Cook. Maybe Ternus will find it easier to move the company forward.
> This guy seems much younger than Tim was when he ascended.
Ternus just looks a bit younger. He’ll be 51, and half a year older than Cook was when he became CEO in 2011.
All the C-suits in Apple that normally does the presentations look completely LA style artificial. Nothing looks human about them, they always give off the same feel of un-personal, robotic, snake oil sales people; not someone that you actually would like to lead a company, as in someone who actually understands what it means to be human.
I suppose saying he looks better at that age would be inappropriate? Haha
> This is one of the more broadly normal HN-reaction threads to large public news event I've seen in a while. A lot of love for Apple, respect for the decision, and respectfully stated nuance. Surprising and good.
In other words, nothing insightful or worth talking about. I don't want to read news for feelgood vibes.
But there is interesting information in lots of the comments. Like the quote from Ternus about Apple Maps in one of the comments. This gives relevant insight of how he thinks and how he might handle problems when he takes over.
If it's interesting to note that there are mostly nuanced takes and positive vibes in the thread, and an otherwise low-value meta comment is deemed to be a worthy top comment for saying so, then I suggest an auto-generated AI summarization comment pinned to every long HN thread. This will surely save everyone the trouble of doing so...
(I am not claiming the top comment is AI generated, only that an AI generated summarization of the thread can function just as well in its stead, despite the occasional inaccuracies)
This is relevant information for this forum, for good or bad Apple has a lot of impact.
I find your reaction strange, do you read news to be angry and/or afraid? :)
For critical thought. This overlaps with negativity, because criticism is disagreeable.
Critical thought is not about negativity, it is about evaluation. You take a statement and evaluate it based on its merits using an epistemic system which prioritizes consistently, evidence, and logical coherence.
Saying it is disagreeable is like saying that honestly is disagreeable. Sure, it can be, but it is not an inherent feature, and a lot depends on how it is delivered.
This is the ideal: friendly criticism. But first you have to make friends. If your audience aren't your friends, you can exercise your silver tongue to charm them while still delivering your criticism. If they aren't your friends and you unfortunately don't have a silver tongue, you can be negative, or be quiet, or stick to subjects they won't feel defensive about. You can't have the ideal in practical reality.
If you don't have a silver tongue, say what you mean without denigrating anyone or anything, or just don't comment at all. There is no requirement to be negative for the sake of being negative.
Mostly when presented disagreeably. You might reflect upon that.
Exactly! Good demonstration.
What are you like as a person? This isn’t just news - it’s conversation
> I don't want to read news for feelgood vibes.
Yes, as algorithmic engagement has proven, most people want to read the news to get angry about stuff.
But I don't like hanging around that. I'd rather talk about tech news with nerds (old HN) and not just talk about coastal filter-bubble US politics with big tech worker bees (new HN).
US politics has definitely captured the crowd here lately. Half of the comment threads somehow devolve from discussions of Javascript frameworks into hysterical left-populist struggle sessions over the perceived political injustice of the day.
Maybe some feel good vibes and some apolitical news for the day aren't a bad thing.
Sometimes the commenters actually have genuine insights that must reports/articles will never mention. Sadly, I'm quite a cynical person that expects everything to have a spin unless it comes from an authoritative source.
In general, I'd say it's about confirmation bias and having a fluffy statement that confirms preconceived notions is hardly interesting to me. If there is anything of substance that contradicts any narrative or general consensus than I find the signal in the noise highly valuable.
But I can't speak for the general case because I don't use any social media and find rage bate quite cumbersome.
A lot of love for a company which doesn't even let you chose the apps you want to use.
A wonderfully out-of-date sentiment.
What do you mean? Something like "freedom is so last year, it's all about obedience now"?
I mean that you can now change default apps. Nice jump to a strawman rather than waiting for a reply.
oh I just love the replies
This is not a bad thing.
Please explain?
Unless you choose your hardware first…
Your statement implies that positivity equals to normality. This is the same kind of statement that would imply that negativity or evil is normal.
All those statements are psychological manipulation. Being too positive or too negative makes people blind and mendable by silently suppressing their will to be themselves.
I think you can do better
I think they're the exact same age at time of appointment?
But Tim Apple had gray hair
There's a BBC article on this, with a quote:
> With a new boss, Apple may be showing its strategic interest in deeper integration of AI into its hardware, said Hubbard. "The very strengths that made Apple dominant - their discipline, polish, and control - could become constraints if the next era rewards openness and faster iteration," he said.
The opposite of the basic human interface quality and consistency improvements that several commenters here hope for.
(Admittedly "Hubbard" here is just the first pundit they could grab, an Assistant Professor of Management and Organization, so this isn't the best informed prognostication.)
I honestly think they are just transitioning to a new format for user interfaces. What I mean is I think there’s some hardware coming that is going to make all of the previous user interface is redundant in someway at least in Apple’s thesis and so there’s less focus on making those traditional screens great because we’re gonna have new surfaces.
That's some really gross toxic-positivity begging.
You can do better
Love for hackernews community
To me Apple is the company that had started the war against personal computing.
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> A lot of love for Apple
That makes me wonder why people love Apple but hate all other big companies.
There are plenty of other big companies that people love too. Off the top of my head: Nintendo, AMD, Disney.
In the case of all of them, they may make some questionably ethical business decisions but at the same time do genuinely care about the craft they're in, pushing boundaries and making quality products.
To a large extent: the product, the gloss, the luxury-item impression. People generally aren't looking beyond that deeper into the company behind.
You can see a similar thing in the 3D printing world with Bambu Lab - people love the product (my A1 has been excellent value, very reliable, and I despite preferring my fancy more expensive toy for most tasks I would still recommend it to those starting out without specific needs that such a design can't provide), and any concern about the company behind it (slowly closing off the ecosystem, initially trying to make out that their obviously-inspired-by-the-fullspectrum-scorca-fork colour mixing option was their own original stroke of genius) doesn't matter to them.
With both Bambu and Apple part of why they get this attention is the end-to-end polish that people feel in the product experience (to be fair is a valid reason to choose those products) and a certain amount of luck in them bringing their show to market at the right time, where other companies are seen as producing more interchangeable commodity items. Without that distinction giving people a higher view of the product range, the other companies struggle to get away from the fact that we don't naturally, for good reason, trust nor love commercial entities.
The other thing working in favour of some companies is momentum: some were worthy of some adoration for higher quality products and/or greater customer care than the competition, but are no longer and it takes a while for everyone to realise how much things have changed. Disney is definitely a company that I would add to this pile, and there are others.
Another big company that seems to get a lot more adoration than any of their competition is Nintendo, though I'm not in the gaming market any more so I don't know how much of that they still earn and how much of it is just that at least they aren't Sony or Microsoft!
For a long time apple did a lot better for both "hackers" and normal customers compared to the other big operating system company.
They also made a good unix based OS that was easy to purchase on decent hardware (esp laptops).
Have you used Oracle, Salesforce, Windows? That’s why.
This reads like a good example of how prestige brands flatten people critical faculties. :-)
"A lot of love for Apple" is not evidence of wisdom or merit. It is evidence that Apple has been extraordinarily successful at converting ordinary consumer electronics into a moral aesthetic identity for its customers... Once that happens, public praise stops being about products and starts being about selfregard.
That is why Apple gets discussed in a register normally reserved for institutions that have actually earned public affection. In reality, it is a company that charges luxury prices for tightly controlled products, then persuades customers that the control is sophistication and the markup is virtue. :-)
This is mostly a case study in prestige bias. People are not just evaluating a company but protecting a status hierarchy in which buying Apple signifies discernment.
And the something amazing must be in the skunkworks line is the usual theology that means when the present is overpriced iteration, redemption is always scheduled for a few years from now.
You can do better than that
Oh yes, I can...
I remember the iPhone launch queues...as in the strangest ritual in consumer tech. People camping overnight for a device that will be sitting on shelves in unlimited quantities the following week. Like queueing up for a vacuum cleaner and pretending it's the moon landing.:-)
Oh the love for a company, with the battery gate ($500M settlement for throttling phones customers already owned), the CSAM on-device scanning proposal, a decade of Irish tax routing, active lobbying against right to repair, repeated supply chain findings on child and forced labor... and a CEO who hands Trump gold while going quiet on the causes Apple used to grandstand about.
So much much to love on this company. Its poised with assholery of Steve Jobs to its core, and has no salvation. If I want luxury, I buy a laptop from Cartier...
The worst is the tell that an all Apple setup is a the near perfect filter for not a hacker. The ecosystem is engineered against the instincts that define hacking, no sideloading without ceremony, no real repair, no low level access without fighting the OS, no running what you want without Apple permission, no swapping parts that haven't been blessed with the right serial number.
Its computing for consumers, not tinkerers. Which is fine, except the culture around it borrows the prestige of technical sophistication while actively opting out of it. :-)
The Mac in the coffee shop is a lifestyle object. The ThinkPad running Linux next to it is a tool.
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Apple's headquarters The Ring made under Tim Cook represents what Apple today is . Kissing the Ring of Trump
$AAPL down almost 1% after-market on this news
which news? this one or the daily middle east blunder.
that's a rounding error
Look like it briefly went down to above what it started today at.
That is not terribly significant at all.
"it's priced in" - lol
"The market sees all, knows all and will be there from the beginning of time until the end of the universe (the market has already priced in the heat death of the universe)."
Asking as a non American. Why would this matter to me? Why should I care about this?
Apple has an enormous global footprint. Their devices are made in China, India, and Vietnam, and source parts from basically everywhere. More than half of Apple's revenue comes from outside the US and there are 1.5 billion iPhones in use across the world (somewhat larger than the population of the US).
It’s not novel to critique or idolize anyone, especially given the roll undergoing the changing of the guard. It’s not like hundreds of managers are changing.
They are all still there.
But here’s to hoping that change comes. Apple is already a rich company. But isn’t that boring?
Many companies have quite a shakeup in management around big changes like this, though I’m not sure how Apple operates internally. Maybe they are an exception to the rule?
> Apple is already a rich company. But isn’t that boring
“Making money is art, and working is art and good business is the best art” — Andy Warhol
You can argue that Warhol never made anything that qualifies as art.
Mister Ternus, please create an Apple TV.
It will redefine the way we watch TV and that's exactly your job, to make something truly unique. And I'll tell you the secret sauce, the remote. I know you'll come up with something totally different, a marvel of engineering that will drop jaws around the world. Different aluminum colors and extra flat? Check. But that's not what this new generation needs. They want to watch tiktok and instagram in their TV and nobody right now offers an out-of-this-world experience. Social media consumption on a big screen. Excel at that and you will sell millions at whatever price you set.
My credit card is ready...