I'm not saying I'm for those over open source licenses in general, but Prusa brought up some fair questions when discussing the OCL. Essentially: define "personal use." Have I violated a non-commercial license if I print this keyboard and then use it to build someone a website? Does CC-NC mean a Prusacaster -- or any guitar knob with such a license for that matter -- is strictly barred from being taken on tour? Or used to record albums that are then sold? (And I say "guitar" knob, but I'm choosing an example a little consciously that could exist in any variety of controls, instrument and otherwise.)
Where are the lines of that when it's physical things? How far downstream does that go if it isn't CC-NC-SA in particular?
I'm not really sure that Creative Commons had the idea of physical production in mind, given that it dates back to a time when we were more broadly talking about digital piracy, and I honestly haven't kept up with its evolution much in more recent years. But maybe it just doesn't make the same sense for designs of physical things, for comparable reasons to why it wouldn't make sense for code -- and, conversely, open source projects that opt to use CC licenses for assets.
(None of this would stop me from attempting to build/mod one for fun, mind you. It just raises what a more averse person might call risks, and what I will at least call curiosities.)
Where are the lines of that when it's physical things?
The automotive aftermarket has largely settled that; even without the original design files, it's perfectly legal to make compatible parts, patents and the like notwithstanding. You can build an entire "small block Chevy" engine wholly from parts that GM did not make, and it will fit perfectly in a car that originally had the "genuine" one.
IANAL but as long as you don't violate any patents they have (if any) nor use their trademark, feel free to make and sell keyboards that look like theirs (not that a keyboard of their design is particularly distinctive anyway.)
Not a lawyer, but as I understand it the license is a matter of copyright, and the copyright only applies to the design files. So as long as you're making that keyboard for yourself then you should be good to do anything you want with the keyboard, because it is no longer using the license at that point.
Now, what is interesting is if someone were to blatantly violate the license and start manufacturing commercial keyboards. I believe their only recourse would be to revoke their license of the design files, and then it would be copyright infringement. The thing is, I don't know how copyright law would handle any damages.
I don't know if making a physical product could be a violation of copyright, regardless of if you had a license to use the design in the first place. I could definitely imagine a company trying to enforce this, and a judge throwing it out because it should have been handled with patents.
> Not a lawyer, but as I understand it the license is a matter of copyright, and the copyright only applies to the design files. So as long as you're making that keyboard for yourself then you should be good to do anything you want with the keyboard, because it is no longer using the license at that point.
What if I take the design, print it, include the thing in a staged photo, and sell prints of the photo?
What if I skip the printing and use the design files as a basis for a rendered photo or animation?
What if I print the design, then use a 3D scanner to recreate a file from the physical artifact?
You're asking some pretty niche copyright questions that even a lawyer would have to spend time searching for case law for. It may be more expedient to look for that case law yourself.
Copyright law forbids the creation of derivative works (excepting any region-specific fair-use rules) so you're only allowed to create them under the rights granted to you in the terms of the license - thus under this particular license you can't make commercial use of derivative works.
But is a physical item a derivative work of it's technical specifications?
If the design files qualify for copyright protections, then modifications to them would clearly be derivative works.
I don't think it is clear if the keyboard itself would be a derivative work, as it almost certainly can't be protected by copyright. This is what patents are for.
The design files don't qualify for copyright protections, they describe the design which (maybe) qualifies for copyright protections.[0]
The artistic design of a specific keyboard can certainly be copyrighted, but not the functional nature of it.
[0]The exact wording might be protected, but not the factual information contained. Sports scores, or say measurements of a keyboard, are not copyrightable items as they are just facts, though their presentation might be.
> What if I take the design, print it, include the thing in a staged photo, and sell prints of the photo?
This is probably acceptable
> What if I skip the printing and use the design files as a basis for a rendered photo or animation?
This is probably NOT acceptable
> What if I print the design, then use a 3D scanner to recreate a file from the physical artifact?
If you used that for personal things yes that would be acceptable. I do not think that would give you the right to then sell that as a product neither digitally nor phsically
What if I'm a sculptor and I design and produce a statue? Shouldn't I still have the copyright to the statue, no matter what kind of machine I used to do the actual sculpting?
What if I print the design, then use a 3D scanner to recreate a file from the physical artifact?
Hmm, without patents it would definitely be fine to scan an existing one and recreate it. I think this would be fine too, but any time you are clearly going out of your way to skirt the law is a red flag. The thing is, I don't even think technical designs are copyrightable outside of their aesthetic value.
What if I take the design, print it, include the thing in a staged photo, and sell prints of the photo?
What if I skip the printing and use the design files as a basis for a rendered photo or animation?
If it is indeed covered by copyright, then these would likely be violations, though I guess it depends on how prominent it is in the staged photo.
Yeesh. People. C'mon. It's okay to use some common sense here.
Keychron is a keyboard/mouse company. It is VERY reasonable to interpret "non-commercial use" as meaning "don't sell mice/keyboards built or derived from these designs."
NOT "we are going to sue you if a 3D-printed copy of our mouse ends up in the background shot of your movie," or similar contrived madness.
Hasn’t Creative Commons disavowed or at least really downplayed the NC license for exactly these reasons? There are so many ambiguities and headaches involved that the only advice I’ve ever seen is not to use it.
- If it’s a company doing an NC license, probably best to be careful because they can make your life hell with lawyers.
- If it’s a random joe doing an NC license, feel free to ignore it because they don’t have the money to defend it anyway. Especially so if it’s CC-BY-NC-ND, people that pick that one are especially likely to be in the all-bark-no-bite category.
At least that’s how one of the companies I worked for treated CC licenses… I don’t work there anymore.
Likewise, I was unaware of this (and still see it in use regularly, especially on places like Printables as I've recently gotten my hands on a printer myself)
I think CC originally did have producing physical items in mind. For example, one use case for the NC licenses for photos was that you can pay someone to make a print and frame it for you. This went sideways when Flickr offered to streamline the process because for many creators, NC means that no one (else) should be able make a profit using the work.
I'd consider another Keychron (my first mechanical since a couple of AT and PS/2 Model M and variant devices I had years and years ago) and I like some stuff about it and definitely like the price, but would look for a model with a few differences next time and probably skip Keychron if I couldn't get all of these fixed in one of their boards:
1 - Longer battery life (I have a bluetooth + plug-in model). The battery life is crazy-low, even when not in use and the lights are turned off. I keep it plugged in all the time, as a result. I don't really get why it can't last, idle, about as long as a game controller does (many weeks! And those don't have much space for batteries).
2 - No light pattern button. That thing exists only to accidentally hit and switch it away from "gently and evenly lit" which is one of the very-few non-insane patterns available. Brush it by accident, there goes a minute or so of your time getting it back to something that's not trying to look like a disco ball. And it's right on the corner, so you will hit it by accident when moving the keyboard around or reaching for something just past it. Easily my least-favorite thing about the board, despite how bad the next item is.
3 - Mine has a kind of tray-design around the edge, resulting in about a 1/8" lip, that looks very cheap to assemble (so that's nice, lower price) but means it collects EVERYTHING out of the air and is a pain in the ass to clean. It also makes it look kinda like someone's 3D printed hobby project. Like it's an ugly keyboard, both because of the design and because it's visibly collecting dust and hair just a few days after its last keys-removed full cleaning.
I disabled the lighting on my Keychron Q1 Max due to the battery drain. With it on (on the lowest glow possible), it would barely last a week. With it off? I go literal months without charging it back up, and it's used wirelessly 100% of the time, both via Bluetooth and 2.4 GHz.
Same on my K8. It’s holding down something and the light buttons.
It’s a godsend, all I want is dim-ish blue lights, but I’d keep coming back to it doing rainbow patterns and flashes that I’m sure some people love but I find really distracting.
I recently bought a Keychron, but I'm not wildly enthusiastic yet. It's very thick; much thicker than the 2002 Dell keyboard it's replacing. And the key press feels very spongy. I suspect I might prefer clacky keyboards after all.
Yeah I would certainly only recommend a hotswap model, even if someone isn't into keyswitches that much, they still probably have a preferred feel that they want to go for.
I have their Q60, which is a retro-themed HHKB layout 60% board. Paired with a set of beige-Mac-themed MT3 Extended 2048 keycaps, out of my collection it's one of my favorites and sees some of the most use. It goes head to head with pricier one-off hobbyist boards.
I wonder how suitable these CAD files would be for either CNCing or resin-printing a translucent fruit-colored plastic case for a different flavor of retro. That'd be really cool.
Both variants are great but I'm particularly fond of the PBT version. The slightly rough/matte texture that doesn't wear away easily and exaggerated dome shapes are sublime to use.
I had to convince myself to spend the money on a keychron keyboard, but at this point I really like it. I've spilled 3 bottles of water on it as well as 1 protein shake on it and I've been able to fix it each time by just disassembling it and letting it dry out. It's been working perfectly after each time. So far it's been worth the money. That and taking it apart was actually really easy and straightforward.
Why do you like rhe 96% layout? I prefer the full space, recently upgraded to a Q6 Ultra, I’m really happy I can get a wireless version of most of their models these days.
Wider keyboards (with the space for arrow keys and number keys to the right) put extra strain on your right shoulder when you use the mouse in your right hand.
I've been using a narrow keyboard and ergonomic mouse for 2 weeks, and my shoulder pain is starting to go away.
I put a number pad on the left and it's much easier to key in numbers with my left hand instead of using my mouse with my left hand.
It's just keys, nothing else. I don't use any tactile or visual guides when I type and go off pure muscle memory, so all the spacing in traditional layouts is useless for me.
I've used a K4 for 6 years now and love it. The only thing is that I had to swap out the arrow keys for textured ones, which allows me to reach for them blindly and keeps me from losing my location when using them.
I have a Keychron that I love. I have a jar full of replacement switches, so I suspect that I won’t need to get a new keyboard, anytime soon.
I have an Apple Touch ID keyboard, that I use only for Touch ID. I don’t like it, otherwise. I’ve always wondered why Apple doesn’t ship (or license) a simple standalone Touch ID pad. They could probably get a decent premium for it.
That said, like a lot of open-source libraries, I appreciate the gesture, but will likely always use the built product. It’s just that hardware has a habit of “aging out,” so this is a way to ensure that a legacy product can remain viable, even after discontinuation.
Yeah, that’s cool, but too much like work for me. The keyboard thing is a bit awkward, but manageable. I keep it in my keyboard tray (which I never use for a keyboard, otherwise).
Not open source or open hardware, which they are pretty clear about.
> This project is source-available. Personal and educational use is allowed, and commercial use is allowed for compatible accessories. You may not copy and sell Keychron keyboards or mice [...].
It's awesome if you mod your own gear, and 3d printing / one off part services are ubiquitous, so if you see something you like online, it's cheap and easy to do little upgrades.
More companies should do what they do - the less ethical players are already cloning knockoffs anyways, stuff like this builds brand loyalty and probably makes it more likely that people stick with Keychron over going for the knockoffs.
Sort of tangent - but I've always thought there would be physical stores in big cities (like NYC, where I am) where I could try a number of different keyboards and keys since it's such a tactile experience.
But there seems to be no stores like this? So... is everyone ordering keys and keyboards, returning them, trying others, etc.? I know there are key switch samplers... is that it?
Yup was touring some historical stuff in Tokyo and thought I’d look for an HHKB, checked their site and sure enough there was retailer a 10 minute walk away. Tiny shop in a more residential area a block or two off the main street.
i live in the largest city on the west coast of the USA and the only stores i've found where i can press keyboards is Office Depot and the like, and at least in the stores that i have visited, they have not had mechanicals.
even when Frys was around, i don't remember them having keyboards out and about.
Microcenter is probably the most consistent place. Not a huge selection, but some of the maintstream ones, to get a feel for switches on Keychron and some of the other big brands. Depending on where exactly you are, it's likely +/- 30min of an hour drive, which is only sorta "far" in US terms.
Frys predated the "mainstream" mechanical keyboard boom. If they were still around I'm sure they'd have even more (they were always larger stores).
wow, i had no idea at all there was a Microcenter in Socal! not too far, i'll be visiting, thank you. i went to a Microcenter in Dallas decades ago and was blown away.
The Keyboard Speciality shop you linked is great. It is always surprisingly crowded for such a niche topic. The have good test boards with different key switches.
Note that in the area are quite a few other good shops. Tsukumo has various hardware across many floors and also keyboards, in b1 they also have a razer store. Then there is a shop across the street Galleria or something, more targeting esports, if you are into that.
I've been there, but it definitely felt like more of an enthusiast experience. Someone who's just looking into getting their first mechanical keyboard would do better at a larger shop stocked with cheaper keyboards and a greater variety of common switch types.
That being said, the shop is located in a surprisingly quiet area, surrounded by other small enthusiast shops. I especially liked "High Beam" a few stores down, which specialises in handheld PCs.
I'm not sure if there are better shops, but I've been to Syntrend Creative Park and they have a floor with all kinds of gadgets, including various keyboards. There are mechanical keyboards to try out (IIRC there are for example ducky keyboards), and they are also selling some good keycap sets.
for sure, that's probably the best option here in NYC/Brooklyn
but it definitely feels limited when compared with all of the options available online (that probably applies to most things)
there's a specialized store in Brooklyn for modular synths [0] - obviously they don't stock every module but still... I'd assume that a keyboard store would be... popular? maybe? haha
(((((((((should I start a keyboard store ahaha - I swear this was not market research)))))))
It is such a niche market that even in a big city it doesn't make much sense to have physical shop dedicated to it. Most people into it are into custom dwsign and color, it would be impossible to stock everything and people would just go to the shop trying the keys and layout then order cheaper online to have the exact combo they want.
> So... is everyone ordering keys and keyboards, returning them, trying others, etc.? I know there are key switch samplers... is that it?
It's pretty wild the degree to which our lives and economy depend on cheap shipping/trucking. Why have a store when a truck can deliver a 100g trinket for someone three States over.
I mean, you still need a truck to get the item to the store...
Delivery is actually more resource-efficient if the store isn't within walking distance of its customers. If instead of making 10 people get in their car and make a round trip to the store/warehouse, you put 10 packages in one vehicle and deliver to everyone in the same neighborhood with one trip, you're looking at an order of 90% less wasted emissions.
I'm actually not, but the person I was replying to clearly was given the "three states over" comment. I explicitly specified the statement was conditional on customers not being within walking distance.
Peak east coast US! You can travel three states of distance and back in a day or less on the east coast.
Three states over and back would be a day or two minimum, but potentially nearly a week on the west coast. (Depends on start and stop locations obviously, but if you start from eg Portland, three states over could be the Dakotas).
I want one for HiFi headphones / IEMs! I feel really bad to order two or three models that I want and have to return all but one, because I can't really tell the difference just by looking at the specs sheet. My ears should be the ultimate judgement.
Stores, no, but there are meetups of keyboard nerds where people bring a bunch of them. There’s one in NYC run by a former coworker of mine: https://nyckeyboardmeetup.com/. Schedule is somewhat sporadic, and unfortunately you just missed the most recent one, but you might enjoy checking out their next event.
If there isn't a keyboard selection at somewhere like B&H's location on Manhattan's west side, it's unlikely for there to be retail display space for similar anywhere else. Setting aside even 50 square feet of standing height display tables with sample keyboards, as a product, is not cheap in terms of retail display space that could be better used for other high-volume, higher profit margin products.
In an ideal world we could have something along the lines of a ca. 2002 era Fry's Electronics in size and concept of broad selection of products. But you'd need something the size of the largest Costco to have a really full array of every type of electronic gadget/product that's available online, and as we know, Fry's went famously bankrupt...
There is a Keychron store in Bangalore that lets you do this. They even have a computer with a USB C wire sticking out so you can take any keyboard to it and type on Monkeytype. Since the keyboard community is a small one, it’s never really crowded. However, in my experience it takes at least a week of continued use to be able to judge whether a switch is good for you.
In Seattle we have a sizeable mechanical keyboard community that does a monthly meetup. It's a great way to try out different switches/keycaps/layouts/etc. It's worth seeing if there's anything similar near you.
Probably Microcenter in Brooklyn is your best bet, but still limited selection. It really feels like there should be a hole-in-the-wall gaming PC shop in LES - maybe we should just open one?
TL:DR Ultimately I settled on incredibly smooth, linear pre-lubed hall effect/TMR switches, and that’s what I strongly recommend to others.
I played around with different mechanical switches for a bit, getting a few switch testers and hemming and hawing about which would be my chosen one. Honestly most all of it will be better than your typical $20 rubber dome dell e-waste. I got a Leopold keyboard with tactile mx clears as my first “real” keyboard and it was definitely an improvement and enjoyed it for a few years.
However after my final xbox gamepad once again started getting stick drift, I moved one with Hall effect sticks (gamesir). It was so much better that it resulted in me wanting to try a hall effect keyboard with more customizability. Took a chance with a Keydous NJ98-CP V3 HE (pale green) because it was well reviewed and priced well enough to take a risk on. I love it so much I got my sister one.
It turns out what I truly loved about old IBM beamspring switches wasn’t so much the click, but the smoothness. Typical mechanical linear switches with electrical contacts feel scratchy to me which I find repellent. Oddly enough, having a tactile bump to overcome somehow hides that. But a lubed Hall effect switch is as low friction as you can get and I love them. It’s literally fun to type on, and works great for gaming. As a bonus, it’s pretty quiet too, making it less obnoxious for others to be around.
You’ll need to adjust the activation point to prevent accidental activation when resting your hands, but that’s basically it as far as doing things differently.
As a side note, my mouse is a keychron M5, a “vertical” mouse, which works quite well and supports the higher polling rates I’m looking for. Also highly recommended if you need to give your tendons a break. Personally I think Razer has slightly better algorithms for smoothing and accurately translating my movement intentions, but this is only something I notice when “playing” Excel, and it’s not enough that ergonomics don’t easily win out.
There are tens (hundreds?) of keyboards but only a handful of different switch types and manufacturers-with some study and preparation you can narrow down the switch feel pretty quickly.
Then it’s a matter of choosing the style, so yes, many simply collect keyboards of their favorite switch type - and often don’t even return the ones they don’t use.
The elites don’t want you to know this but the keyboards are not free you can take them home I have 458 keyboards.
One of the fun type mix the various key switches to have different feel and different locations (easier/lighter switches at the edges for example).
- It's way, way too heavy. Heavier than my Northgate Omnikey Ultra. Like it's more adept as an improvised weapon as much as any keyboard ever was.
- Didn't come with all black enter and escape caps (they were red orange), requiring purchasing an expensive complete replacement set.
Minor areas for improvement:
~ Battery life could be better.
~ Charging takes a long time and I'm unsure if there's a charge finished indicator.
~ Would be nice to have an offline flash update & macro programmer to not depend on cloud-based software that will eventually evaporate like everything else.
I do like:
+ Replaceability of switches as I've tried a bunch, settling on Kailh Box White V2.
+ RGB effects can be turned off completely or show a solid color at low brightness.
+ Native USB proprietary wireless dongle, BT with 3 profiles, or wired.
Can't speak much to most of your complaints (I like my keyboard heavy, planned to change all the keycaps and switches, and didn't get a wireless keyboard), but you can download an offline version of Via to configure it. https://github.com/the-via/releases/releases
You said you'd like an offline flash update & macro programmer to not depend on cloud-based software, and that exists. Keychron hardware runs on open source firmware and is compatible with VIA as well as their proprietary Launcher. I just checked on my Q11, and the two softwares are basically the same.
I have the k10 he special edition! I am so happy with my purchase, I love the magnetic switches (they feel much nicer to me than mechanical), it's nice to look at, the build quality is great, and the software is really solid. Very impressed overall :)
I still use my K2, which I bought in 2019 from Kickstarter, non-stop. What a piece of hardware! I have no plans to switch and will use it until it dissolves, which doesn’t seem to be happening in the next decade or so
Very cool. I have the V7. I'm a fan. Just did this golang project: https://github.com/mbarlow/saengsation Can control the LEDs from commandline. Includes claude skill and hooks. I'm using it to now see claude state. Rainbow animation while claude is working, glows amber when need to switch back to give permission to command, etc. Configurable. Works well.
"Production-grade hardware design files... Study real CAD... Learn from how real products are built... STEP"
I'm sorry, I hate to be that guy, but while STEP files are often used as the final export to the contract manufacturer to cut the molds, or for some level of fit checking, they're not used for anything else. The real engineering that you can actually learn from is in the SolidWorks (or equivalent) part files, and you'll note that they're not offering those.
I bought one too - most heavy and heavy duty keyboard I have ever owned.
I wanted to use it but it has one fatal flaw - the backlighting is unusable.
The keys it comes with are decent, but opaque, so the backlight doesn't actually illuminate the keys. And if you get shine-through keycaps, the LEDs are mounted below the center of the key instead of above, and you don't get good illumination.
sigh.
I used to use topre realforce rgb, then tried keychron, now use steelseries apex pro exclusively.
if they could fix it, giving me illuminated shine-through keys, I would go back to stay.
I have an IBM Model M, but after prolonged sessions of coding, my finger joints are aching. Are these Keychron keyboard have better switches or what are the experience using these mechanical ones?
Some would call buckling spring style (which inm keyboard use) surperiour to all the mx style switches. It is definitly on the more tactile end, so having aches doesnt surpise me. The variety in MX switches is bonkers. A well known switch collector called Theramingoat has over 4000 different ones. So if you get a hotswap board (keychron is not a bad place to start, but you can find better value-board for the same money nowadays), you can definitely find a switch of your liking. Check out milktooth, you can get a sample pack of different switches to try. And return the ones you dont like.
A model M requires so much force a cockatiel can walk on it and not press a key. Most tactile keyboards use a little less force.
I find linear switches make my hands hurt because they don't have a clear activation point and I end up pressing too hard. Cherry MX Brown switches and equivalent are a sweet spot for me. I also liked the lost-to-history white ALPS switches on the Apple Extended Keyboard II
I've had three keyboards with red switches, two from Ducky that were Cherry switches and one from Lenovo that may be another company's switches, but feel the same. None failed on their own but I spilled drinks on the first two and they were never the same. Maybe check out some of the lighter switches, even reds are way lighter than my old 1990s model M. https://www.cherry.de/en-gb/products/switches
Quite likely - the buckling spring switches in Model M are quite stiff as far as keyboards go. Brown switches are a good choice if you want a light switch with some amount of tactility.
There is (deliberately) not much consistency or uniformity on the switches in mechanical because keyboard nerds are such a picky bunch. I got the Keychron Q11 specifically because the switches could be changed out. I replaced the Brown switches it came with with some "Zilent V2" switches with a much higher activation force.
It can be a dangerous rabbit hole if you let it, but if you're just looking for an approximation of the Model M but that requires less force, then something with "Brown" switches might be up your alley. This one in particular has a similar aesthetic, comes with Brown switches as an option, and at a pretty good price.
I never understood why the K6 had aluminum on the sides, but not the back. For the last few years, I had two K6's with different switches I swapped between. When one keyboard's battery went low, I would swap and keep working while charging.
Then, on my newer K6 the battery turned into what reddit affectionately calls a "spicy pillow." The keys warped convex around the bulged battery and equivalently bulged out the back plastic. That's why you can't put metal back there. I quickly brought it to my nearest battery recycling center. I could've just removed the battery, but I also enjoy having my face in one piece
Source available, meaning we just want to use open source as a marketing gimmick and don't do anything too interesting with it that could affect our bottom line.
These projects get shared on HN sometimes and it doesn't fit with the hacker ethos overall. Everyone wants to yell the cool part aloud, but mutter the asterisks and license language that takes power away from a would be tinkerer underneath their breath.
It could actually be marketed in a decent way, like saying if our company ever goes under you'll have these designs and the license to do anything you want with them. Even a conditional license like that would have more value.
As it stands this is a neat thing that some people can use and disregard the license that wants to hamstring you into doing free research and development for a company that produces a product that they tell you not to make.
The list of model numbers is clearly stated in the repo README and you’re apparently a subject matter expert on this; so, please look up the answer to your question and let us know.
I know, but given the subject of the OP it was an irrelevant garbage comment from a jilted user trying to smear the company. It deserves an equally obtuse response.
Wooting has done this already for many years: https://github.com/WootingKb/wooting-design
did WASD do it when they folded?
I wish, I will need new feet for my CODE soon. Plus my cases latching tabs are about half gone.
if it helps, I found Epomaker like the Galaxy70 were a fine replacement, with some specialty switches like the TTC Bluish White V2 (silent tactile).
great, one more
On the source-available piece:
I'm not saying I'm for those over open source licenses in general, but Prusa brought up some fair questions when discussing the OCL. Essentially: define "personal use." Have I violated a non-commercial license if I print this keyboard and then use it to build someone a website? Does CC-NC mean a Prusacaster -- or any guitar knob with such a license for that matter -- is strictly barred from being taken on tour? Or used to record albums that are then sold? (And I say "guitar" knob, but I'm choosing an example a little consciously that could exist in any variety of controls, instrument and otherwise.)
Where are the lines of that when it's physical things? How far downstream does that go if it isn't CC-NC-SA in particular?
I'm not really sure that Creative Commons had the idea of physical production in mind, given that it dates back to a time when we were more broadly talking about digital piracy, and I honestly haven't kept up with its evolution much in more recent years. But maybe it just doesn't make the same sense for designs of physical things, for comparable reasons to why it wouldn't make sense for code -- and, conversely, open source projects that opt to use CC licenses for assets.
(None of this would stop me from attempting to build/mod one for fun, mind you. It just raises what a more averse person might call risks, and what I will at least call curiosities.)
Where are the lines of that when it's physical things?
The automotive aftermarket has largely settled that; even without the original design files, it's perfectly legal to make compatible parts, patents and the like notwithstanding. You can build an entire "small block Chevy" engine wholly from parts that GM did not make, and it will fit perfectly in a car that originally had the "genuine" one.
IANAL but as long as you don't violate any patents they have (if any) nor use their trademark, feel free to make and sell keyboards that look like theirs (not that a keyboard of their design is particularly distinctive anyway.)
Not a lawyer, but as I understand it the license is a matter of copyright, and the copyright only applies to the design files. So as long as you're making that keyboard for yourself then you should be good to do anything you want with the keyboard, because it is no longer using the license at that point.
Now, what is interesting is if someone were to blatantly violate the license and start manufacturing commercial keyboards. I believe their only recourse would be to revoke their license of the design files, and then it would be copyright infringement. The thing is, I don't know how copyright law would handle any damages.
I don't know if making a physical product could be a violation of copyright, regardless of if you had a license to use the design in the first place. I could definitely imagine a company trying to enforce this, and a judge throwing it out because it should have been handled with patents.
Again, not a lawyer, just speculating on a forum.
> Not a lawyer, but as I understand it the license is a matter of copyright, and the copyright only applies to the design files. So as long as you're making that keyboard for yourself then you should be good to do anything you want with the keyboard, because it is no longer using the license at that point.
What if I take the design, print it, include the thing in a staged photo, and sell prints of the photo?
What if I skip the printing and use the design files as a basis for a rendered photo or animation?
What if I print the design, then use a 3D scanner to recreate a file from the physical artifact?
You're asking some pretty niche copyright questions that even a lawyer would have to spend time searching for case law for. It may be more expedient to look for that case law yourself.
If you need to be an attorney to figure out if you're allowed to take a picture of something, we've already jumped the shark.
Not what he asked.
I mean maybe if you take a super pedantic, weaponized autism type of interpretation of the very first question, sure.
Not a lawyer either, but:
> What if I take the design, print it, include the thing in a staged photo, and sell prints of the photo?
Probably fair use, provided the design wasn't the main focus of the photo, but merely part of the "set dressing."
> What if I skip the printing and use the design files as a basis for a rendered photo or animation?
> What if I print the design, then use a 3D scanner to recreate a file from the physical artifact?
Those questions are simpler - both scenarios would be derivative works of the original files, so covered by the license.
but are those derived works copyrightable? I don't think they are.
Copyright law forbids the creation of derivative works (excepting any region-specific fair-use rules) so you're only allowed to create them under the rights granted to you in the terms of the license - thus under this particular license you can't make commercial use of derivative works.
But is a physical item a derivative work of it's technical specifications?
If the design files qualify for copyright protections, then modifications to them would clearly be derivative works.
I don't think it is clear if the keyboard itself would be a derivative work, as it almost certainly can't be protected by copyright. This is what patents are for.
Ianal, usual disclaimers, etc.
The design files don't qualify for copyright protections, they describe the design which (maybe) qualifies for copyright protections.[0]
The artistic design of a specific keyboard can certainly be copyrighted, but not the functional nature of it.
[0]The exact wording might be protected, but not the factual information contained. Sports scores, or say measurements of a keyboard, are not copyrightable items as they are just facts, though their presentation might be.
> What if I take the design, print it, include the thing in a staged photo, and sell prints of the photo?
This is probably acceptable
> What if I skip the printing and use the design files as a basis for a rendered photo or animation?
This is probably NOT acceptable
> What if I print the design, then use a 3D scanner to recreate a file from the physical artifact?
If you used that for personal things yes that would be acceptable. I do not think that would give you the right to then sell that as a product neither digitally nor phsically
What if I'm a sculptor and I design and produce a statue? Shouldn't I still have the copyright to the statue, no matter what kind of machine I used to do the actual sculpting?
Yes, but that only applies if you count the keyboard as a work of art worthy of copyright protection.
What if I print the design, then use a 3D scanner to recreate a file from the physical artifact?
Hmm, without patents it would definitely be fine to scan an existing one and recreate it. I think this would be fine too, but any time you are clearly going out of your way to skirt the law is a red flag. The thing is, I don't even think technical designs are copyrightable outside of their aesthetic value.
What if I take the design, print it, include the thing in a staged photo, and sell prints of the photo?
What if I skip the printing and use the design files as a basis for a rendered photo or animation?
If it is indeed covered by copyright, then these would likely be violations, though I guess it depends on how prominent it is in the staged photo.
...this stuff is fun to think about.
obviously the photos and media is covered by copyright, but rendering your own probably is not.
Yeesh. People. C'mon. It's okay to use some common sense here.
Keychron is a keyboard/mouse company. It is VERY reasonable to interpret "non-commercial use" as meaning "don't sell mice/keyboards built or derived from these designs."
NOT "we are going to sue you if a 3D-printed copy of our mouse ends up in the background shot of your movie," or similar contrived madness.
Hasn’t Creative Commons disavowed or at least really downplayed the NC license for exactly these reasons? There are so many ambiguities and headaches involved that the only advice I’ve ever seen is not to use it.
Rule of thumb:
- If it’s a company doing an NC license, probably best to be careful because they can make your life hell with lawyers.
- If it’s a random joe doing an NC license, feel free to ignore it because they don’t have the money to defend it anyway. Especially so if it’s CC-BY-NC-ND, people that pick that one are especially likely to be in the all-bark-no-bite category.
At least that’s how one of the companies I worked for treated CC licenses… I don’t work there anymore.
I'd love to see more info on this
Likewise, I was unaware of this (and still see it in use regularly, especially on places like Printables as I've recently gotten my hands on a printer myself)
I think CC originally did have producing physical items in mind. For example, one use case for the NC licenses for photos was that you can pay someone to make a print and frame it for you. This went sideways when Flickr offered to streamline the process because for many creators, NC means that no one (else) should be able make a profit using the work.
I don't think they are interested in those nuances. I think they just want to get free PR for a widget they are making.
A Keychron has always been a great introduction for friends that want a good home desk setup without too much fuss.
I have stuck with the System76 Launch keyboard but I basically always consider Keychron first when looking.
I'd consider another Keychron (my first mechanical since a couple of AT and PS/2 Model M and variant devices I had years and years ago) and I like some stuff about it and definitely like the price, but would look for a model with a few differences next time and probably skip Keychron if I couldn't get all of these fixed in one of their boards:
1 - Longer battery life (I have a bluetooth + plug-in model). The battery life is crazy-low, even when not in use and the lights are turned off. I keep it plugged in all the time, as a result. I don't really get why it can't last, idle, about as long as a game controller does (many weeks! And those don't have much space for batteries).
2 - No light pattern button. That thing exists only to accidentally hit and switch it away from "gently and evenly lit" which is one of the very-few non-insane patterns available. Brush it by accident, there goes a minute or so of your time getting it back to something that's not trying to look like a disco ball. And it's right on the corner, so you will hit it by accident when moving the keyboard around or reaching for something just past it. Easily my least-favorite thing about the board, despite how bad the next item is.
3 - Mine has a kind of tray-design around the edge, resulting in about a 1/8" lip, that looks very cheap to assemble (so that's nice, lower price) but means it collects EVERYTHING out of the air and is a pain in the ass to clean. It also makes it look kinda like someone's 3D printed hobby project. Like it's an ugly keyboard, both because of the design and because it's visibly collecting dust and hair just a few days after its last keys-removed full cleaning.
You can remap/disable all light shortcuts using web app https://launcher.keychron.com/#/keymap
I disabled the lighting on my Keychron Q1 Max due to the battery drain. With it on (on the lowest glow possible), it would barely last a week. With it off? I go literal months without charging it back up, and it's used wirelessly 100% of the time, both via Bluetooth and 2.4 GHz.
I have a K2, and you can lock the lights with some key combination I don't remember and am too lazy to look up.
Oh, wow, it's fn + L + Light Effect Key (long press for 3s). Thanks for the tip!
A full list of key combinations for the K3 (which I have) is at https://www.keychron.uk/blogs/news/k3-key-combinations - alter the url to suit your model, but most of them appear to be the same.
Same on my K8. It’s holding down something and the light buttons.
It’s a godsend, all I want is dim-ish blue lights, but I’d keep coming back to it doing rainbow patterns and flashes that I’m sure some people love but I find really distracting.
I recently bought a Keychron, but I'm not wildly enthusiastic yet. It's very thick; much thicker than the 2002 Dell keyboard it's replacing. And the key press feels very spongy. I suspect I might prefer clacky keyboards after all.
Yeah I would certainly only recommend a hotswap model, even if someone isn't into keyswitches that much, they still probably have a preferred feel that they want to go for.
I have their Q60, which is a retro-themed HHKB layout 60% board. Paired with a set of beige-Mac-themed MT3 Extended 2048 keycaps, out of my collection it's one of my favorites and sees some of the most use. It goes head to head with pricier one-off hobbyist boards.
I wonder how suitable these CAD files would be for either CNCing or resin-printing a translucent fruit-colored plastic case for a different flavor of retro. That'd be really cool.
MT3 really is a fantastic profile.
Both variants are great but I'm particularly fond of the PBT version. The slightly rough/matte texture that doesn't wear away easily and exaggerated dome shapes are sublime to use.
I had to convince myself to spend the money on a keychron keyboard, but at this point I really like it. I've spilled 3 bottles of water on it as well as 1 protein shake on it and I've been able to fix it each time by just disassembling it and letting it dry out. It's been working perfectly after each time. So far it's been worth the money. That and taking it apart was actually really easy and straightforward.
I wonder if investing in a cup holder would've been a better option
yeah, it has happened whenever I use the non cap+straw water bottle.
Maybe try some water/juice drinking bottles with a cap and/or a large straw?
I do mostly, just the times it's happened it was the one without the straw.
Perhaps a sippy cup?
The Keychron K4/related (K4 HE here) compact 96% layout is definitely my favorite keyboard layout. Just a solid brick of keys.
Why do you like rhe 96% layout? I prefer the full space, recently upgraded to a Q6 Ultra, I’m really happy I can get a wireless version of most of their models these days.
Wider keyboards (with the space for arrow keys and number keys to the right) put extra strain on your right shoulder when you use the mouse in your right hand.
I've been using a narrow keyboard and ergonomic mouse for 2 weeks, and my shoulder pain is starting to go away.
I put a number pad on the left and it's much easier to key in numbers with my left hand instead of using my mouse with my left hand.
It's just keys, nothing else. I don't use any tactile or visual guides when I type and go off pure muscle memory, so all the spacing in traditional layouts is useless for me.
I've used a K4 for 6 years now and love it. The only thing is that I had to swap out the arrow keys for textured ones, which allows me to reach for them blindly and keeps me from losing my location when using them.
It's insanely compact for a 96% board.
Second this. I was skeptical because I thought I was attached to the "heft" of a full layout, but the 96% is the best of both worlds.
The HE keyboards are really great. I have been using the K10 HE for a year and it's the best keyboard I've used.
Cool stuff.
I have a Keychron that I love. I have a jar full of replacement switches, so I suspect that I won’t need to get a new keyboard, anytime soon.
I have an Apple Touch ID keyboard, that I use only for Touch ID. I don’t like it, otherwise. I’ve always wondered why Apple doesn’t ship (or license) a simple standalone Touch ID pad. They could probably get a decent premium for it.
That said, like a lot of open-source libraries, I appreciate the gesture, but will likely always use the built product. It’s just that hardware has a habit of “aging out,” so this is a way to ensure that a legacy product can remain viable, even after discontinuation.
You can make your own touch id pad if so inclined.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzB6m2VTxAg
Yeah, that’s cool, but too much like work for me. The keyboard thing is a bit awkward, but manageable. I keep it in my keyboard tray (which I never use for a keyboard, otherwise).
Keychron just open-sourced their design files, which I didn’t expect.
I’m a happy user of their keyboards.
Not open source or open hardware, which they are pretty clear about.
> This project is source-available. Personal and educational use is allowed, and commercial use is allowed for compatible accessories. You may not copy and sell Keychron keyboards or mice [...].
It's awesome if you mod your own gear, and 3d printing / one off part services are ubiquitous, so if you see something you like online, it's cheap and easy to do little upgrades.
More companies should do what they do - the less ethical players are already cloning knockoffs anyways, stuff like this builds brand loyalty and probably makes it more likely that people stick with Keychron over going for the knockoffs.
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Keychron :heart:
I’ve got 2 ortholinears (home and work), and a compact for another machine.
Is any or them dies, instabuying another Keychron!
PS: IF you’re listening, PLEASE release a split wireless ortholinear
Keychron has ortholinears now? I guess so, cool: https://www.keychron.com/products/keychron-q15-max-qmk-wirel...
Sort of tangent - but I've always thought there would be physical stores in big cities (like NYC, where I am) where I could try a number of different keyboards and keys since it's such a tactile experience.
But there seems to be no stores like this? So... is everyone ordering keys and keyboards, returning them, trying others, etc.? I know there are key switch samplers... is that it?
Thanks
Yeah, this is a US issue. If you go to Tokyo or Taipei, you will find physical stores in cities with many different kind of mechanical keyboards.
I almost purchased a mechanical keyboard (with the wrong layout) from a Bic Camera [1] just because they offered in-store access to the keyboards.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bic_Camera
Yup was touring some historical stuff in Tokyo and thought I’d look for an HHKB, checked their site and sure enough there was retailer a 10 minute walk away. Tiny shop in a more residential area a block or two off the main street.
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Definitely not a US only issue
Central EU here. We order a bunch of switches. A "starter pack" of sorts. We try them and then choose the favourite.
Physical shops rarely stock keyboards with removable switches.
Nah, in the bigger electronics stores you can test the more well known keyboards and switches just fine.
Not a US issue. A store near me has mechanical keyboards.
Definitely a some-areas-issue.
i would love to know more about this.
i live in the largest city on the west coast of the USA and the only stores i've found where i can press keyboards is Office Depot and the like, and at least in the stores that i have visited, they have not had mechanicals.
even when Frys was around, i don't remember them having keyboards out and about.
Microcenter is probably the most consistent place. Not a huge selection, but some of the maintstream ones, to get a feel for switches on Keychron and some of the other big brands. Depending on where exactly you are, it's likely +/- 30min of an hour drive, which is only sorta "far" in US terms.
Frys predated the "mainstream" mechanical keyboard boom. If they were still around I'm sure they'd have even more (they were always larger stores).
Old Fry’s had a lot of keyboards.
The Fry’s that shut down was a shell of its former shelf.
If you’re in LA, Microcenter has mechanical keyboards.
They also have a whole rotating robotic wall of 3D filament that works like a physical jukebox.
wow, i had no idea at all there was a Microcenter in Socal! not too far, i'll be visiting, thank you. i went to a Microcenter in Dallas decades ago and was blown away.
I would love to visit a Tokyo store with mechanical keyboards!
My solution is to buy a mech keyboard from some well respected vendor and try it out. I return the vast majority.
ok wow - https://maps.app.goo.gl/6mxrDe8H9e4u1ru38 (in Tokyo)
yeah, that's what'd I want!
The Keyboard Speciality shop you linked is great. It is always surprisingly crowded for such a niche topic. The have good test boards with different key switches.
Note that in the area are quite a few other good shops. Tsukumo has various hardware across many floors and also keyboards, in b1 they also have a razer store. Then there is a shop across the street Galleria or something, more targeting esports, if you are into that.
I've been there, but it definitely felt like more of an enthusiast experience. Someone who's just looking into getting their first mechanical keyboard would do better at a larger shop stocked with cheaper keyboards and a greater variety of common switch types.
That being said, the shop is located in a surprisingly quiet area, surrounded by other small enthusiast shops. I especially liked "High Beam" a few stores down, which specialises in handheld PCs.
They have a switch tester board where you can press individual keys and you can see which switch you just pressed on the screen
I went there last time I was sent on a business trip to Japan! It’s a fun little shop. Wasn’t so crowded at the end of October :)
If in Sydney: https://maps.app.goo.gl/q9symY7GrNh8GRNe8
Where in Taipei? I have been there a few times, so you can be specific.
I'm not sure if there are better shops, but I've been to Syntrend Creative Park and they have a floor with all kinds of gadgets, including various keyboards. There are mechanical keyboards to try out (IIRC there are for example ducky keyboards), and they are also selling some good keycap sets.
If you live in NYC take a trip to your nearest Microcenter, they often have tons of keyboards out that you can play with and get a feel for
for sure, that's probably the best option here in NYC/Brooklyn
but it definitely feels limited when compared with all of the options available online (that probably applies to most things)
there's a specialized store in Brooklyn for modular synths [0] - obviously they don't stock every module but still... I'd assume that a keyboard store would be... popular? maybe? haha
(((((((((should I start a keyboard store ahaha - I swear this was not market research)))))))
[0] https://maps.app.goo.gl/rvsPscrphv1iKU8D8
Rebalancing: ))
It is such a niche market that even in a big city it doesn't make much sense to have physical shop dedicated to it. Most people into it are into custom dwsign and color, it would be impossible to stock everything and people would just go to the shop trying the keys and layout then order cheaper online to have the exact combo they want.
I don't even need to touch every configuration of all the things. I just want a place I can press a row of each switch type from all the vendors.
> So... is everyone ordering keys and keyboards, returning them, trying others, etc.? I know there are key switch samplers... is that it?
It's pretty wild the degree to which our lives and economy depend on cheap shipping/trucking. Why have a store when a truck can deliver a 100g trinket for someone three States over.
I mean, you still need a truck to get the item to the store...
Delivery is actually more resource-efficient if the store isn't within walking distance of its customers. If instead of making 10 people get in their car and make a round trip to the store/warehouse, you put 10 packages in one vehicle and deliver to everyone in the same neighborhood with one trip, you're looking at an order of 90% less wasted emissions.
> instead of making 10 people get in their car and make a round trip to the store
Tell me you’re in the US without telling me you’re in the US :)
I'm actually not, but the person I was replying to clearly was given the "three states over" comment. I explicitly specified the statement was conditional on customers not being within walking distance.
Driving across three states to go buy something is peak US :)
Peak east coast US! You can travel three states of distance and back in a day or less on the east coast.
Three states over and back would be a day or two minimum, but potentially nearly a week on the west coast. (Depends on start and stop locations obviously, but if you start from eg Portland, three states over could be the Dakotas).
I want one for HiFi headphones / IEMs! I feel really bad to order two or three models that I want and have to return all but one, because I can't really tell the difference just by looking at the specs sheet. My ears should be the ultimate judgement.
Stores, no, but there are meetups of keyboard nerds where people bring a bunch of them. There’s one in NYC run by a former coworker of mine: https://nyckeyboardmeetup.com/. Schedule is somewhat sporadic, and unfortunately you just missed the most recent one, but you might enjoy checking out their next event.
If there isn't a keyboard selection at somewhere like B&H's location on Manhattan's west side, it's unlikely for there to be retail display space for similar anywhere else. Setting aside even 50 square feet of standing height display tables with sample keyboards, as a product, is not cheap in terms of retail display space that could be better used for other high-volume, higher profit margin products.
In an ideal world we could have something along the lines of a ca. 2002 era Fry's Electronics in size and concept of broad selection of products. But you'd need something the size of the largest Costco to have a really full array of every type of electronic gadget/product that's available online, and as we know, Fry's went famously bankrupt...
There’s the NYC Mechanical Keyboard Meetup if you would like to see and try different builds. Most people will let you try their builds.
https://nyckeyboardmeetup.com/
There is a Keychron store in Bangalore that lets you do this. They even have a computer with a USB C wire sticking out so you can take any keyboard to it and type on Monkeytype. Since the keyboard community is a small one, it’s never really crowded. However, in my experience it takes at least a week of continued use to be able to judge whether a switch is good for you.
Berlin has a nice one: https://geekboards.de/
Edit: Turns out, sadly, had one: https://geekboards.de/blogs/news/were-closing-our-berlin-sho...
sad to hear...! I also found https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/1h6gtw... with more Q&A from the owner
A combination of key samplers and going with the first acceptable switch rather than trying all of them and going with the best.
In Seattle we have a sizeable mechanical keyboard community that does a monthly meetup. It's a great way to try out different switches/keycaps/layouts/etc. It's worth seeing if there's anything similar near you.
Pc hardware stores often have some keyboards available to try (mostly cheap cherry mx stuff).
Probably Microcenter in Brooklyn is your best bet, but still limited selection. It really feels like there should be a hole-in-the-wall gaming PC shop in LES - maybe we should just open one?
I’m extremely interested. Email in profile - reach out and let’s grab coffee?
TL:DR Ultimately I settled on incredibly smooth, linear pre-lubed hall effect/TMR switches, and that’s what I strongly recommend to others.
I played around with different mechanical switches for a bit, getting a few switch testers and hemming and hawing about which would be my chosen one. Honestly most all of it will be better than your typical $20 rubber dome dell e-waste. I got a Leopold keyboard with tactile mx clears as my first “real” keyboard and it was definitely an improvement and enjoyed it for a few years.
However after my final xbox gamepad once again started getting stick drift, I moved one with Hall effect sticks (gamesir). It was so much better that it resulted in me wanting to try a hall effect keyboard with more customizability. Took a chance with a Keydous NJ98-CP V3 HE (pale green) because it was well reviewed and priced well enough to take a risk on. I love it so much I got my sister one.
It turns out what I truly loved about old IBM beamspring switches wasn’t so much the click, but the smoothness. Typical mechanical linear switches with electrical contacts feel scratchy to me which I find repellent. Oddly enough, having a tactile bump to overcome somehow hides that. But a lubed Hall effect switch is as low friction as you can get and I love them. It’s literally fun to type on, and works great for gaming. As a bonus, it’s pretty quiet too, making it less obnoxious for others to be around.
You’ll need to adjust the activation point to prevent accidental activation when resting your hands, but that’s basically it as far as doing things differently.
As a side note, my mouse is a keychron M5, a “vertical” mouse, which works quite well and supports the higher polling rates I’m looking for. Also highly recommended if you need to give your tendons a break. Personally I think Razer has slightly better algorithms for smoothing and accurately translating my movement intentions, but this is only something I notice when “playing” Excel, and it’s not enough that ergonomics don’t easily win out.
I've thought about this. why not a boutique Keyboard Store in Grand Central? Every make, model, and design of keyboard and accessory.
It’s a tiny market in the US. Most people just buy a razer or corsair from Best Buy if they do it in person.
Sounds like you need to attend the next NYC Mechanical Keyboard Meetup
wow! I'm sad I missed it last month! https://nyckeyboardmeetup.com/events/20260314/
any idea when the next one will be?
If you live in the bay area, Microcenter Santa Clara has lots to try.
Central Computer too
There are tens (hundreds?) of keyboards but only a handful of different switch types and manufacturers-with some study and preparation you can narrow down the switch feel pretty quickly.
Then it’s a matter of choosing the style, so yes, many simply collect keyboards of their favorite switch type - and often don’t even return the ones they don’t use.
The elites don’t want you to know this but the keyboards are not free you can take them home I have 458 keyboards.
One of the fun type mix the various key switches to have different feel and different locations (easier/lighter switches at the edges for example).
Best Buy has keychron
They have lots of keychron keyboards to try, even weird custom ones, at Central Computers in silicon valley.
The only problems I have with the Q6 Max are:
- It's way, way too heavy. Heavier than my Northgate Omnikey Ultra. Like it's more adept as an improvised weapon as much as any keyboard ever was.
- Didn't come with all black enter and escape caps (they were red orange), requiring purchasing an expensive complete replacement set.
Minor areas for improvement:
~ Battery life could be better.
~ Charging takes a long time and I'm unsure if there's a charge finished indicator.
~ Would be nice to have an offline flash update & macro programmer to not depend on cloud-based software that will eventually evaporate like everything else.
I do like:
+ Replaceability of switches as I've tried a bunch, settling on Kailh Box White V2.
+ RGB effects can be turned off completely or show a solid color at low brightness.
+ Native USB proprietary wireless dongle, BT with 3 profiles, or wired.
+ Wired or wireless connection while charging.
+ PC vs. Mac layout as a physical switch.
Can't speak much to most of your complaints (I like my keyboard heavy, planned to change all the keycaps and switches, and didn't get a wireless keyboard), but you can download an offline version of Via to configure it. https://github.com/the-via/releases/releases
They're my complaints, not yours. You cannot validate or invalidate them.
But not launcher.
You said you'd like an offline flash update & macro programmer to not depend on cloud-based software, and that exists. Keychron hardware runs on open source firmware and is compatible with VIA as well as their proprietary Launcher. I just checked on my Q11, and the two softwares are basically the same.
I have the k10 he special edition! I am so happy with my purchase, I love the magnetic switches (they feel much nicer to me than mechanical), it's nice to look at, the build quality is great, and the software is really solid. Very impressed overall :)
I still use my K2, which I bought in 2019 from Kickstarter, non-stop. What a piece of hardware! I have no plans to switch and will use it until it dissolves, which doesn’t seem to be happening in the next decade or so
Very cool. I have the V7. I'm a fan. Just did this golang project: https://github.com/mbarlow/saengsation Can control the LEDs from commandline. Includes claude skill and hooks. I'm using it to now see claude state. Rainbow animation while claude is working, glows amber when need to switch back to give permission to command, etc. Configurable. Works well.
"Production-grade hardware design files... Study real CAD... Learn from how real products are built... STEP"
I'm sorry, I hate to be that guy, but while STEP files are often used as the final export to the contract manufacturer to cut the molds, or for some level of fit checking, they're not used for anything else. The real engineering that you can actually learn from is in the SolidWorks (or equivalent) part files, and you'll note that they're not offering those.
They use Creo it seems:
Hah, I just bought the Q6. Seeing they released their design spec makes me much happier with the purchase!
I bought one too - most heavy and heavy duty keyboard I have ever owned.
I wanted to use it but it has one fatal flaw - the backlighting is unusable.
The keys it comes with are decent, but opaque, so the backlight doesn't actually illuminate the keys. And if you get shine-through keycaps, the LEDs are mounted below the center of the key instead of above, and you don't get good illumination.
sigh.
I used to use topre realforce rgb, then tried keychron, now use steelseries apex pro exclusively.
if they could fix it, giving me illuminated shine-through keys, I would go back to stay.
I have an IBM Model M, but after prolonged sessions of coding, my finger joints are aching. Are these Keychron keyboard have better switches or what are the experience using these mechanical ones?
Some would call buckling spring style (which inm keyboard use) surperiour to all the mx style switches. It is definitly on the more tactile end, so having aches doesnt surpise me. The variety in MX switches is bonkers. A well known switch collector called Theramingoat has over 4000 different ones. So if you get a hotswap board (keychron is not a bad place to start, but you can find better value-board for the same money nowadays), you can definitely find a switch of your liking. Check out milktooth, you can get a sample pack of different switches to try. And return the ones you dont like.
A model M requires so much force a cockatiel can walk on it and not press a key. Most tactile keyboards use a little less force.
I find linear switches make my hands hurt because they don't have a clear activation point and I end up pressing too hard. Cherry MX Brown switches and equivalent are a sweet spot for me. I also liked the lost-to-history white ALPS switches on the Apple Extended Keyboard II
I've had three keyboards with red switches, two from Ducky that were Cherry switches and one from Lenovo that may be another company's switches, but feel the same. None failed on their own but I spilled drinks on the first two and they were never the same. Maybe check out some of the lighter switches, even reds are way lighter than my old 1990s model M. https://www.cherry.de/en-gb/products/switches
Quite likely - the buckling spring switches in Model M are quite stiff as far as keyboards go. Brown switches are a good choice if you want a light switch with some amount of tactility.
I can give a third vote to the rough comparison between a keyboard with brown switches, and a Model M. I've got both, and like both.
There is (deliberately) not much consistency or uniformity on the switches in mechanical because keyboard nerds are such a picky bunch. I got the Keychron Q11 specifically because the switches could be changed out. I replaced the Brown switches it came with with some "Zilent V2" switches with a much higher activation force.
It can be a dangerous rabbit hole if you let it, but if you're just looking for an approximation of the Model M but that requires less force, then something with "Brown" switches might be up your alley. This one in particular has a similar aesthetic, comes with Brown switches as an option, and at a pretty good price.
https://www.keychron.com/products/keychron-c2-pro-8k-qmk-via...
I never understood why the K6 had aluminum on the sides, but not the back. For the last few years, I had two K6's with different switches I swapped between. When one keyboard's battery went low, I would swap and keep working while charging.
Then, on my newer K6 the battery turned into what reddit affectionately calls a "spicy pillow." The keys warped convex around the bulged battery and equivalently bulged out the back plastic. That's why you can't put metal back there. I quickly brought it to my nearest battery recycling center. I could've just removed the battery, but I also enjoy having my face in one piece
Their Q10 Max has hit an amazing sweet spot for me. Being able to keep DIYing on that base is like Xmas, this is awesome.
Keychron's firmwares are not fully opensourced. This makes me hesitant to buy one.
Great that these are source-available, but I wish they had a human copy edit the README, it's unbearable.
I love the design for the ergonomic mouse. Are there any plans for split keyboard or something Corne style?
They have at least the Q11 as a split keyboard model. Or did you mean something else?
I meant something that's orthogonal. I can't go back to standard staggered keyboards. The downgrade would mean RSI for me.
Love my Keychron Q1 Max. Awesome to see them open source their design files.
What's so special about these designs that makes it copyrightable? The keyboards in the image look very much like any other keyboard I've seen.
Novelty is irrelevant to copyright. You are probably thinking of patents or trade marks.
Source available, meaning we just want to use open source as a marketing gimmick and don't do anything too interesting with it that could affect our bottom line.
These projects get shared on HN sometimes and it doesn't fit with the hacker ethos overall. Everyone wants to yell the cool part aloud, but mutter the asterisks and license language that takes power away from a would be tinkerer underneath their breath.
It could actually be marketed in a decent way, like saying if our company ever goes under you'll have these designs and the license to do anything you want with them. Even a conditional license like that would have more value.
As it stands this is a neat thing that some people can use and disregard the license that wants to hamstring you into doing free research and development for a company that produces a product that they tell you not to make.
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The list of model numbers is clearly stated in the repo README and you’re apparently a subject matter expert on this; so, please look up the answer to your question and let us know.
No it's design files. Like CAD stuff.
Pretty sure @jhogendorn was being tongue-in-cheek to call out (semi-related) questionable behavior from Keychron.
I know, but given the subject of the OP it was an irrelevant garbage comment from a jilted user trying to smear the company. It deserves an equally obtuse response.