I think the image shown at the top right is the entire text that was discovered: because if you count all the lines (including even the ones where no mortal can see actual letters), you get 30. I admire the experts who can make sense out of it. Words are not separated by blanks. The first line in the second column may start with «ΚΑΙΤΟΙ ΠΩ…» ‹and yet wh…›. Below that perhaps «Η ΜΕΙΖΟΝ …» ‹or greater›. Further below even I can read clearly a «ΦΑΙΝΕΤΑΙ» ‹he / she / it appears›. Even further down I read «ΚΑΙ ΔΙΑ ΤΟΥΤΟΥ» ‹and through / per / via this›.
Not understanding Greek, I ran that through Google Translate (Greek -> English) just to see what it might say.
> AND THIS … THE MAJOR … BUT THE BOTH … ARE MEANING … PEUSIS PAN GAR SEEMS.. OBVIOUS.. SPECTRA … OF SONGS SO … MAJOR … AND THEREFORE … NOT EVEN EARS .. NO LANGUAGE
What form of Greek would that be? (I don't know much more than "ancient Greek" vs "modern Greek".)
I think the Greek doesn't read «ΠΕΥΣΗ ΠΑΝ ΓΑΡ» but «ΠΕΥΣΗΙ ΠΑΝ ΓΑΡ» with «Ι», and «ΠΕΥΣΗΙ» = «πευσῃ» could be the 2nd sg. of the future of «πυνθάνομαι» ‹learn›. «ΠΑΝ» would be ‹all, every(thing)›, «ΓΑΡ» ‹namely, because (postponed)›. ‹… you will learn, everything namely …›? I don't know. – The «ΦΑΙΝΕΤΑΙ» ‹seems, appears› is on the next line, after some missing words.
Respect! even if I can't agree with every detail, e.g. «ΚΑΙ ΤΟΥΤΩ» would require the «Υ» and the «Τ» to be quite different from the «Υ»s and «Τ»s in clearer cases, e.g. in the «ΚΑΙ ΔΙΑ ΤΟΥΤΟΥ» we both read as such. So I would stick to «ΚΑΙΤΟΙΠΩ…».
Ah, you're right. "30 verses" made it sound like more than what you can see on that image. Luckily most of the papyrus is very legible! even if fragmented...
Empedocles wrote in verse. Greek scientific writings used to be written entirely in verse instead of prose. He wrote in Latin, but a cool example of something like this that survived is Lucretius' On the Nature of things (De Rerum Natura).
So is there any way to actually read it? Or do i have to buy an obscure french book? can you even buy the book?
Academic publishing/gatekeeping is such a joke.
It's in the picture, I presume. Just gotta brush up on that Koine Greek. Or if you read Egyptian hieroglyphs already, you can use the Rosetta Stone to reconstruct the Koine Greek from first principles.
This isn't ready for the general public yet. When a new manuscript is discovered, the first stage is determining readings, which obviously is a process for experts consulting among themselves. Then, an edition of the original-language text is prepared and, again, if you aren't trained in Ancient Greek the text still isn't ready for you. Only then is a translation into a modern language created.
After that, you can probably read it online for free, whether through open access or the shadow libraries. Nobody is keeping anything from you.
This feels like a knee-jerk reaction. While it may be a relevant critique of some news releases about academic research… this one literally contains a thumbnail with a link to a sufficiently-high-resolution image of the document. You can read it by clicking on the only image in the article.
I think the image shown at the top right is the entire text that was discovered: because if you count all the lines (including even the ones where no mortal can see actual letters), you get 30. I admire the experts who can make sense out of it. Words are not separated by blanks. The first line in the second column may start with «ΚΑΙΤΟΙ ΠΩ…» ‹and yet wh…›. Below that perhaps «Η ΜΕΙΖΟΝ …» ‹or greater›. Further below even I can read clearly a «ΦΑΙΝΕΤΑΙ» ‹he / she / it appears›. Even further down I read «ΚΑΙ ΔΙΑ ΤΟΥΤΟΥ» ‹and through / per / via this›.
Papyrologists are amazing. It takes a ton of training to be able to make sense of all those fragments.
ΚΑΙ ΤΟΥΤΩ … Η ΜΕΙΖΟΝ… ΑΛΛΑ ΤΑ Δ ΑΜΦΟΤΕ… ΔΗΛΟΥΤΑΙ… ΠΕΥΣΗ ΠΑΝ ΓΑΡ ΦΑΙΝΕΤΑΙ.. ΚΟΙΛΑ.. ΦΑΣΜΑΤΑ … ΓΥΙΩΝ ΟΣΣΟΝ … ΜΕΙΖΟΝΑ … ΚΑΙ ΔΙΑ ΤΟΥΤΟΥ … ΟΥΤΕ ΩΤΑ .. ΟΥΔΑΝ ΓΛΩΣΣΑ …
Not understanding Greek, I ran that through Google Translate (Greek -> English) just to see what it might say.
> AND THIS … THE MAJOR … BUT THE BOTH … ARE MEANING … PEUSIS PAN GAR SEEMS.. OBVIOUS.. SPECTRA … OF SONGS SO … MAJOR … AND THEREFORE … NOT EVEN EARS .. NO LANGUAGE
What form of Greek would that be? (I don't know much more than "ancient Greek" vs "modern Greek".)
> PEUSIS PAN GAR SEEMS
I think the Greek doesn't read «ΠΕΥΣΗ ΠΑΝ ΓΑΡ» but «ΠΕΥΣΗΙ ΠΑΝ ΓΑΡ» with «Ι», and «ΠΕΥΣΗΙ» = «πευσῃ» could be the 2nd sg. of the future of «πυνθάνομαι» ‹learn›. «ΠΑΝ» would be ‹all, every(thing)›, «ΓΑΡ» ‹namely, because (postponed)›. ‹… you will learn, everything namely …›? I don't know. – The «ΦΑΙΝΕΤΑΙ» ‹seems, appears› is on the next line, after some missing words.
Looking more carefully at the original image (http://www.thehistoryblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2026/04/Emp...) I can see the mapping of letterforms you made. Thanks for that!
Respect! even if I can't agree with every detail, e.g. «ΚΑΙ ΤΟΥΤΩ» would require the «Υ» and the «Τ» to be quite different from the «Υ»s and «Τ»s in clearer cases, e.g. in the «ΚΑΙ ΔΙΑ ΤΟΥΤΟΥ» we both read as such. So I would stick to «ΚΑΙΤΟΙΠΩ…».
I dunno, it's all Greek to me.
(I'll see myself out).
Ah, you're right. "30 verses" made it sound like more than what you can see on that image. Luckily most of the papyrus is very legible! even if fragmented...
Fun fact about Empedocles, in Argentinian Spanish slang it means the one who is always drunk
Empedocles wrote in verse. Greek scientific writings used to be written entirely in verse instead of prose. He wrote in Latin, but a cool example of something like this that survived is Lucretius' On the Nature of things (De Rerum Natura).
So is there any way to actually read it? Or do i have to buy an obscure french book? can you even buy the book? Academic publishing/gatekeeping is such a joke.
It's in the picture, I presume. Just gotta brush up on that Koine Greek. Or if you read Egyptian hieroglyphs already, you can use the Rosetta Stone to reconstruct the Koine Greek from first principles.
It's not Koine and it's in verse.
This isn't ready for the general public yet. When a new manuscript is discovered, the first stage is determining readings, which obviously is a process for experts consulting among themselves. Then, an edition of the original-language text is prepared and, again, if you aren't trained in Ancient Greek the text still isn't ready for you. Only then is a translation into a modern language created.
After that, you can probably read it online for free, whether through open access or the shadow libraries. Nobody is keeping anything from you.
This feels like a knee-jerk reaction. While it may be a relevant critique of some news releases about academic research… this one literally contains a thumbnail with a link to a sufficiently-high-resolution image of the document. You can read it by clicking on the only image in the article.
I'm hoping in these verses Empedocles complains about crappy copper from a Babylonian merchant.
494 B.C.? Empedocles’ll DMCA you if you post them!
It will probably be processed into an edited edition and then published as a book.
I mean, it's still a pretty cool discovery.
Probably! but how would i know?