Great interview, really fun to read. I love that they were both so technically involved, the section of the great interview where they just start discussing how a range literal would work and why it's a good/bad idea is just great. A wonderful example of how really talented and smart engineers talk to each other.
I love these kind of stories, and I appreciate the effort to write these histories down.
I do think the interview could use a bit more editing, it now reads more like a literal transcript and that is somewhat exhausting to read. Take this excerpt:
>> "Like it just fit my brain. It’s one of those where I don’t have to think about it, it just automatically makes sense to me. Much more than any other programming language. Even though I quite like C, I quite like all the pitfalls in C, I’m very comfortable in C and C++ and pretty comfortable in Java and PHP, but Python is just fun and it’s enjoyable and it makes sense. And this was the Usenet days, of course. I think the Python list, yeah, the email list gateway existed as well. So I think I just subscribed to Python-List and learned a lot about Python just from using it, following along."
> And I remember vividly because we had the board elections. I was running for the board. He was running for the board. We had six people elected. And then tied in seventh place were Eric Raymond and I. And he suggested a shootout. I mean playfully, suggested a gun duel because that’s his thing and you said how about pies instead and then Greg said no we’ll just have another round of elections and then I won (Guido laughs) and then in the first years of the PSF we were talking a lot about, I don’t know where to get income and how to get companies to support Python and that kind of thing. And obviously the IRS status and what we should do. And I remember at one point I made a analogy with gun laws or gun regulation or something. And you sent a reply saying, I’m so glad that you won instead of Eric Raymond.
If I understand correctly it's just a reflection on different governing styles where Eric Raymond was a bit louder (pro gun libertarian) while Guido's strategy was more consensus-orentied and pragmatic which turned out be the winning one. PSF got IRS non-profit status etc and became incredibly successful.
Guido is not racist like ESR is, and it would have been a disaster to have somebody as racist and obsessed with dragging the organizations he leads into the pro-racism side of political culture war battles that have absolutely nothing to do with their mission, as ESR has a track record of trying to do: He threw down the gauntlet and attempted to drag OSI into supporting Russ Nelson after his infamous "Blacks are Lazy" blog posting that caused him to resign for the good of OSI, who ESR wanted to spend their resources and reputation fighting his culture war against (dog whistle alert:) "thugs" who don't want to follow a racist leader. That kind of blatant racism and totally non-python-related racist culture warfare bullshit political battles would have been extremely detrimental to the python community, just as his other antics and his and Russel's racist rants were detrimental to the open source community. OSI has enough problems attracting women and minorities that they don't need white male leaders telling black people they're lazy and accusing people who disagree of being "fools and thugs".
>“The people who knew Russ as a Quaker, a pacifist and a gentleman, and no racist, but nevertheless pressured OSI to do the responsible thing and fire him in order to avoid political damage should be equally ashamed,” Raymond said. “Abetting somebody elses witch hunt is no less disgusting than starting your own.”
>“Personally, I wanted to fight this on principle,” Raymond said. “Russ resigned the presidency rather than get OSI into that fight, and the board quite properly respected his wishes in the matter. That sacrifice makes me angrier at the fools and thugs who pulled him down.”
Wouters canceled and libeled several people including Tim Peters while increasing his influence and power. He is one of the nastiest open source politicians.
GvR isn't far behind. Two horrible people promoting each other
For a FOSS contributor, GvR always gave me the impression that he'll work on whatever when there's funding, and abandon the work/domain when that dries up. Not exactly hype+dump but no major internal drive to see those things through like someone like Linus or even someone like Jonathan Blow has.
Like his early work on programming for kids (CP4E), and all kinds of short-lived Python projects like Unladen Swallow, with the MS funded speedup work being a later example.
Really interesting format (and appreciate him / Guido being explicit about preferring written prose over [audio] podcasts).
> I remember my niece had a problem with it because her son wanted to drop out of school and pointed to me as, look, I don’t meet school, look at Thomas. And I had to go, no, no, no. I was in a unique situation where the industry was open to anyone who could do the work and I could do the work. That’s not the case anymore. So you have to finish school.
Great interview, really fun to read. I love that they were both so technically involved, the section of the great interview where they just start discussing how a range literal would work and why it's a good/bad idea is just great. A wonderful example of how really talented and smart engineers talk to each other.
I love these kind of stories, and I appreciate the effort to write these histories down.
I do think the interview could use a bit more editing, it now reads more like a literal transcript and that is somewhat exhausting to read. Take this excerpt:
>> "Like it just fit my brain. It’s one of those where I don’t have to think about it, it just automatically makes sense to me. Much more than any other programming language. Even though I quite like C, I quite like all the pitfalls in C, I’m very comfortable in C and C++ and pretty comfortable in Java and PHP, but Python is just fun and it’s enjoyable and it makes sense. And this was the Usenet days, of course. I think the Python list, yeah, the email list gateway existed as well. So I think I just subscribed to Python-List and learned a lot about Python just from using it, following along."
> And I remember vividly because we had the board elections. I was running for the board. He was running for the board. We had six people elected. And then tied in seventh place were Eric Raymond and I. And he suggested a shootout. I mean playfully, suggested a gun duel because that’s his thing and you said how about pies instead and then Greg said no we’ll just have another round of elections and then I won (Guido laughs) and then in the first years of the PSF we were talking a lot about, I don’t know where to get income and how to get companies to support Python and that kind of thing. And obviously the IRS status and what we should do. And I remember at one point I made a analogy with gun laws or gun regulation or something. And you sent a reply saying, I’m so glad that you won instead of Eric Raymond.
WHEW they literally dodged a bullet there!
What's the story with Eric Raymond?
If I understand correctly it's just a reflection on different governing styles where Eric Raymond was a bit louder (pro gun libertarian) while Guido's strategy was more consensus-orentied and pragmatic which turned out be the winning one. PSF got IRS non-profit status etc and became incredibly successful.
Maybe someone else can fill in more but there's nothing particularly dramatic here that I could find other than Eric has become more political in culture wars era. Also see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_S._Raymond#Political_beli...
Guido is not racist like ESR is, and it would have been a disaster to have somebody as racist and obsessed with dragging the organizations he leads into the pro-racism side of political culture war battles that have absolutely nothing to do with their mission, as ESR has a track record of trying to do: He threw down the gauntlet and attempted to drag OSI into supporting Russ Nelson after his infamous "Blacks are Lazy" blog posting that caused him to resign for the good of OSI, who ESR wanted to spend their resources and reputation fighting his culture war against (dog whistle alert:) "thugs" who don't want to follow a racist leader. That kind of blatant racism and totally non-python-related racist culture warfare bullshit political battles would have been extremely detrimental to the python community, just as his other antics and his and Russel's racist rants were detrimental to the open source community. OSI has enough problems attracting women and minorities that they don't need white male leaders telling black people they're lazy and accusing people who disagree of being "fools and thugs".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russ_Nelson
"Blacks are lazy" -Russ Nelson
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Russ_Nelson#Blacks_are_la...
New OSI President Steps Down
https://www.eweek.com/servers/new-osi-president-steps-down/#...
>“The people who knew Russ as a Quaker, a pacifist and a gentleman, and no racist, but nevertheless pressured OSI to do the responsible thing and fire him in order to avoid political damage should be equally ashamed,” Raymond said. “Abetting somebody elses witch hunt is no less disgusting than starting your own.”
>“Personally, I wanted to fight this on principle,” Raymond said. “Russ resigned the presidency rather than get OSI into that fight, and the board quite properly respected his wishes in the matter. That sacrifice makes me angrier at the fools and thugs who pulled him down.”
Oh wow TIL, thanks for expanding
Wouters canceled and libeled several people including Tim Peters while increasing his influence and power. He is one of the nastiest open source politicians.
GvR isn't far behind. Two horrible people promoting each other
For a FOSS contributor, GvR always gave me the impression that he'll work on whatever when there's funding, and abandon the work/domain when that dries up. Not exactly hype+dump but no major internal drive to see those things through like someone like Linus or even someone like Jonathan Blow has.
Like his early work on programming for kids (CP4E), and all kinds of short-lived Python projects like Unladen Swallow, with the MS funded speedup work being a later example.
Alt account of zahlman?
Really interesting format (and appreciate him / Guido being explicit about preferring written prose over [audio] podcasts).
> I remember my niece had a problem with it because her son wanted to drop out of school and pointed to me as, look, I don’t meet school, look at Thomas. And I had to go, no, no, no. I was in a unique situation where the industry was open to anyone who could do the work and I could do the work. That’s not the case anymore. So you have to finish school.