I got a Dell XPS for work a couple years ago on someone's recommendation... one of my worst-ever decisions.
The touchpad sucks and routinely breaks requiring restarts, constantly having driver issues (and you have to deal with the capital-N Nightmare that is SupportAssist for drivers), graphics card is busted and makes the display driver crash once a month.
Power states are completely broken. Laptop will randomly turn on when it's in my bag and rev up to ten thousand degrees. Laptop will randomly, when on full battery and closed, decide to hard-shutoff leading to a windows recovery boot.
Decides to do BIOS updates when it's at 3% battery in the middle of the night, then when I wake up for work the next morning it has to go through a ten-minute recovery sequence.
Battery is swelling after only a couple years of use, which sometimes causes keys on the keyboard to stop working. In the middle of a slack convo I've had to type "Sorrymyspacebarstoppedworkinggottarestartmycomputer".
BSODs, hard drive corruption, you name it. Never buy Dell. Not that there's many good options out there unless you're willing to drop two week's pay on a Framework - but anything is better than Dell.
EDIT: Another I thought of - sound card is busted and sounds like it has a low pass filter on it. I know it's not a speaker issue because on occasion it magically fixes itself until the next restart.
Ime turning windows laptops off is really hard. You tell them to shutdown and they restart for some reason, and it does not seem to be update related because it happens with laptops completely offline too. So you may think that you have shut them down, close the lid, but actually they reboot and when you get to them again they are dead. This happens with some dell laptops but I do not think it is just them. Not all the time but very randomly.
I haven't found a way to tell Windows 10 to hibernate other than making that the power button action in power options. Maybe because it's a laptop but it starts immediately after hibernating and your have to hold the power button to fully turn it off. This works and skips any forced updates Windows wants to do. It is very janky and I think ms does it to make skipping updates harder.
I've seen it on my system 76 (clevo) laptop from 2019 on linux, and on windows on the same hardware. I think its a firmware power state design bug. I have a lenovo from 2012 that never had this problem.
Not really - my Dell Precision (Ubuntu Certified even) frequently have problems going to sleep. To be fair - technically it doesn't wake up in the backpack - it fails to sleep in the first place. But if you don't pay attention you wont notice the failure so I'd say that's very close to just as bad.
I have never understood why some people want to avoid switching off their computers.
I have stopped using Apple laptops more than 15 years ago and since then I have used only Linux laptops.
I have no idea whether hibernate worked on my laptops, because this is a feature for which I have never felt any need.
I always take care to optimize the boot time on my computers with custom built kernels and carefully selected daemons (and I do not use systemd). For decades, the boot time on my laptops had been of perhaps twenty seconds at most and the biggest delay in starting to use the computers after being powered off is entering a password to unlock them, not the start-up of the OS. Using something like hibernation instead of complete power off would speed up negligibly the process of beginning to work on the computer.
Sleep is just different from shut down. With an unplugged laptop, after an idle period or by shutting the lid, I'd like the machine to save energy. I haven't always taken the steps to prepare for a shut down, saving open documents. I wouldn't like to wake back up an idle machine to see that my programs had all been closed.
And sometimes I'd like to quickly put a laptop into a bag without waking it up just to shut it down first. If I had a way to transition from sleep to shut down I'd use it, but also... this is where I see that if the sleep state were more perfect (used zero energy, zero unintended wakeups), it would obviate my need to shut down most of the time.
So what you’re saying is that you don’t understand why everyone doesn’t run Linux, use custom built kernels, and choose their daemons carefully?
Or I can just use my M2 MacBook Air where hibernate works properly, wakes instantly, last 12-18 hours on one charge, runs quiet and I can actually use it on my lap without worrying about becoming sterile from the heat…
The recent-ish Dell XPS I had for work was the worst hardware I've ever had in my entire life, full stop. The touchpad was an abomination. Like, nobody bothered to use it before it shipped. Just completely broken. I also experienced everything else you experienced with regard to power management. That fact that a team of human beings could create something so awful actually made me depressed.
Very happy with my framework when I switched jobs. And my asus zenbook was also great.
Yep, I had the high end "Developer Edition" a while back and it was a terrible experience. Very hot, build quality was poor, touchpad was small, speakers were terrible. I don't think I could use anything other than a MacBook now.
Got a dell xps with the 3 year onsite and accidental damage. Laptop was shit, but after a few repairs, motherboard replacement then complete unit replaced, it is working really well!
My last decent PC laptop was a Lenovo Thinkpad T530. That thing was a chunky black brick and felt like it was made from recycled Soviet-era tanks. Super modular, easy to upgrade RAM, drives, etc.
I got practically 10 years out of it. My next machine was a Dell XPS (Infinity Edge) laptop. I ordered it direct from Dell, unboxed it, turned it on and let it run the standard set of Windows updates. Came back an hour later and it was hung in a BSOD state. Rebooted and everything seemed to be working smoothly again but it was... concerning so I left it running overnight. Came back to YET ANOTHER BSOD the next morning and was like F### this.
Immediately RMA and sent it back. If your QC is a hot circle of garbage for a nearly $3000 machine then I have zero faith in your company.
I am resisting the urge to detail my insane story with my most recent Dell XPS purchase. Long story short, I will never again buy a Dell laptop. I went months without my machine during a critical time. I kept getting it back in worse shape than it was before I sent it for repair. After months of pure insanity, I just accepted that I'll never have a properly function touchpad again. At least they finally got a working motherboard put in it. I'm feeling waves of rage and anger just thinking back to what they put me through. Never again. I won't even accept a Dell as a work laptop again. Never.
Its such a contrast to the Dell I used to know. Back in 2012 I had the hard drive in my Dell laptop sale and had the Dell small business service contract and they sent out a guy to replace it that afternoon, right there in front of me in the office. I was without my machine for 4 hours. That is what Dell used to be like.
I guess they don't find enough profit in this? TBH I'm OK to pay say 4,000 CAD + for a top tier, 64GB mobile workstation (don't care about video card, Arc is good enough), and +500 CAD for a 10-year care. And I don't even need someone to come over to my home. As long as I can mail or drop to some place I'm fine.
The problem today is -- even with a similar price point (like top tier Dell mobile workstation does cost 3,000+ CAD), I'm not sure how long it lasts. It could be 5 years, it could be 5 months, I have no confidence in it.
That's indeed a bit on the premium side. Back then GBPCAD is about 1.6, so 2,400 CAD and 160 for 2-year support. That's like roughly my monthly net income back in 2018 (just got into IT).
About six months ago I had a Dell Optiplex motherboard fail and they attempted to schedule a tech to come out the following day. I was not available for that and scheduled it a few days later but they did make as full of an effort as can be reasonably expected to make it happen within one business day.
The default warranty on at least the Optiplex line is one year of next business day service and upgrading to three years is cheap. I've never had a situation where same day service was worth the extra cost but it is an option.
I had the same experience in 2021 when the mobo died on a laptop that I bought slightly less than a year before. I was bothered by the failure but understand sometimes things just break. The service quality was good.
I'm not dealing with the scale other people are in here. We should take the ancedotes of personal laptops with a grain of salt. Anyone pushing the scale that Dell does will have incidents where service runs totally off the rails. I don't know how they stack up at scale but I'm reading this thread with interest. When I'm due for a laptop upgrade Dell will still be in the running but right now Framework might be the one to get my business.
When I bought my XPS 15 in 2023, I got the "extended care" package (name may differ). Last year I had an issue with the graphics card no longer being detected, and they sent someone over to replace the mobo two days later. Support was very good.
No power issues and such either, but I don't run Windows on it. Only problem I notice is audible whine coming from the speakers when charging and doing GPU work, like scrolling.
That's really sad. Where are you located if I may ask? Some other commenters mentioned that Dell care is not great outside of the US (I'm in Canada so concerned).
I recently got a new Thinkpad for work, can't recall which model. I think L series?
The build quality is nicer than my T530. The bottom cover doesn't have access panels anymore, but it's got just a few captive(!!) screws and the whole bottom comes off. Everything is neatly exposed and you don't need to access the top of the board at all. The bottom cover has plastic clips along with the screws, but they're spring loaded! They aren't simply molded in and cannot snap off. It's some incredible attention to detail.
I've noticed that most recent laptops have the vent behind the screen hinge where it's completely blocked if the screen is closed. Thinkpad has the vent fully exposed. In fact, it exposes more vent when the screen is closed.
Too bad the CPU is a lemon. One of the new AMD chips with a built in NPU. The NPU is slower than the integrated graphics for inference. Not a discrete card, just the GPU baked into the chip.
In contrast, I got a hand-me-down Dell XPS-something from 2020 when I first started this job. It idles IDLES! at 100°C. I tried to re-paste the CPU, but the heat pipes were so small and thin that I crushed one between my fingers. Even with massive airflow through the case from external fans, it never drops below 100C. Absolutely inexcusable.
Looks to me like Lenovo still has it. At least if you're paying real money for a professional level machine. This new Thinkpad is now my #1 most repairable and maintainable machine. T530 is a close second. Absolutely every other laptop I've ever used is tied for last place in the garbage.
> The NPU is slower than the integrated graphics for inference.
Yeah, that's expected. On consumer devices, the NPUs are not optimizing for speed and they're not meant to out-perform the GPU. They are optimizing for low power consumption. They want to be able to run simple AI tasks without turning your laptop into a frying pan, so that is where the NPU comes in.
Quoting wikipedia:
> On consumer devices, the NPU is intended to be small, power-efficient, but reasonably fast when used to run small models.
I had the same xps nightmare. I fixed it by getting a PTM7950 phase change thermal pad for cpu and gpu, and swapping to Linux (which I would have done anyways). Went from 100c to 49c idle. PTM7950 is incredible.
On the one hand, PTM7950 is really good. On the other hand, a 50 degree temperature drop can't really be explained by anything other than something being terribly wrong to begin with. That thing might unfortunately be Dell, but I'd imagine if more than three brain cells were involved in temperature management design of that machine, it wouldn't have been quite as catastrophic.
Yes of course. I am unhappy with the device for several reasons. Too bad, because they almost got it right in so many other ways. My wife's smaller and slightly less powerful xps is doing great on the other hand.
The XPS I have very aggressively keeps the fans off. They don't kick on at all until 80° or so. Of course there's no way to change it other than a userspace daemon.
You actually have three, AI accelerators: the CPU's SIMD, the NPU, and iGPU. Using them simultaneously could be interesting. It might require custom work, though.
If there are any LLM frameworks that can shard over disparate processor architectures I haven't heard of it.
It'd be pretty cool for sure, but you'd be absolutely strangled by memory bandwidth, I'd expect. LLM sure the chipset would not at all enjoy trying to route all that RAM to three processors at once.
No doubt. I had a few ideas for what might be done:
1. Put the tokenizers or other lower-performance parts on the NPU.
2. Pipelining that moves things through different models or layers on different hardware.
3. If multiple layers, put most of them on the fastest part with a small number on the others. Like with hardware clocking, the ratio is decided to ensure the slower ones don't drag down overall performance.
In things like game or real-time AI's, esp multimodal, there's even more potential as some parts could be on different chips.
Lenovo has tons of options that you can configure to your delight including with Ubuntu pre-installed, well below your $2000CAD price limit. I'd be surprised if you can't get one with USB-A ports:
And as I often state here, Chromebooks have a Debian Linux distro 2 clicks away, including the ability to run X11 GUI programs like VSCode and Cursor for software development.
Because it's an integrated OS/hardware product, there's no fussing with display drivers or power management issues. It all "just works". High performance models kitted out with 16GB RAM and USB A and C ports can be purchased for < $800USD, like:
Yeah you are right. Just checked out Lenovo ThinkPad L16 Gen 1 with 32GB ram and it costs 1,143 CAD (it's a deal but the original cost is still < 2,000 CAD). I was thinking more about workstations back then, but I probably don't need one TBH. I guess my X1 Carbon experience kinda tarnished my view of Lenovo laptops.
I miss so much the first generation of the Dell XPS 13 dev edition.
I think that we were almost at the top of the curve in term of quality/price.
Only a few things could have been fixed (like the webcam at the bottom of the screen) and it would have been perfect.
But, sadly, next generations went deep shit instead.
Nowadays, I have a very hard time selecting a laptop that would fit my needs, even disregarding the price.
One of the worst feature in term of offender is the keyboard: Manufacturers are going on with this totally stupid unergonomic trend of having "half size" enter keys, removing page-up/page-down keys, and hiding directional arrows behind over keys needing to use the "FN+other_key" to be able to use the arrow.
Not sure if it meets the performance criteria you would need, but the higher end Microsoft Surface Laptop is on par with Apple MBP build quality wise from my experiences. I got one from work a few years ago and it’s now my preferred non-mac laptop. I think their marketing is hurting them as I assumed it was the hybrid tablet Surface initially but they make a pure laptop too and that’s what I’m recommending
As someone also trying to get out of (or at least less dependent on) the Apple ecosystem, the laptop market sucks! Everyone but Apple is making the same garbage-tier, shoddy, plastic laptops with bottom of the barrel components that I'm sure are engineered to just barely work enough to avoid immediate product returns.
I'm starting to accept that if I want a development workstation class machine, I need to build a tower from components.
When you walk into a Best Buy, the small majority of non-Apple laptops seem to be made of metal, even the $300 Chromebooks. They look and feel more premium, but probably aren't.
The sad thing is that plastic should be the best material to make laptops from. It's lighter, and it gives when dropped. Think about the cases everybody puts on their phones. They're not made of solid metal, for good reason.
The old Thinkpads had it right, they used a magnesium frame surrounded by high quality plastic.
My MacBook Pro is well made, but it's also a pound heavier than it needs to be.
When I walk into those kind of shops I press a few keys of every laptop and check which keyboard flex. Usually the cheap laptops flex and the expensive ones don't. By cheap I mean 300 or 400 Euro and by expensive I mean 800 or 1000 Euro or more. Some laptops that flex are made of metal, some that do not flex are made of plastic. My HP ZBook 15 from 2014 is rock solid and does not flex even if it's mostly plastic. There is a catch: the keyboard is built with a sheet of metal on the bottom, so it's very rigid. The laptop itself has a frame of metal and a shell of plastic. It's definitely not light, one of those laptops in the 3 kg category (6 lbs?) and definitely not cheap. It's also built for total repairability: it opens with no screws and I can replace everything even the CPU and the GPU l. I replaced the HDD and the DVD with 2 SSDs, maxed out the RAM to 32 GB and replaced the keyboard many times, when keys eventually wear and start to fail. I'd buy it again, with modern components (NVME bus, DDR5 RAM) and without the number pad so I can center the space bar and the touchpad.
I've been considering Framework or System 76 when my Macbook Pro finally dies.
But that means spending ~$1600-2000 (though, about how much my MBP cost).
It seems to take some good research or a clutch recommendation to spend less than that while getting what I want. And I don't understand how 1080p is still such a common resolution.
Thinkpad T models (and other "professional" lines) are fine IME, Framework laptops supposedly too.
These Thinkpads use a combination of fiber reinforced plastics and magnesium for their cases. Aluminum is actually not the ideal material for laptop cases.
I'm personally not a fan of putting my hands on something with good heat conduction! It's nice for passively cooled cases (that you don't put on your lap), but that has pretty severe TDP limitations.
Yes, it's a race to the bottom for most. Lots of plastic and soldered, non-upgradeable components, and a lack of ports. The used market is tricky to navigate thanks to the proliferation of model names and numbers, so little to no salvation there either. Spend a bit more for something that will last a bit longer (MacBook) and/or be upgradeable (frame.work), or accept a cheaper model (e.g. Dell Pro) that will likely need to be replaced in a couple years.
HP Probook or Elitebook models have upgradable ram, SSD, and are generally serviceable. You can usually find the previous generation on ebay for an inexpensive price.
I've had about 400 Windows HP laptops/200 desktops through my hands running IT for a nonprofit. They are not perfect, but the different models (from cheapo plastic-case 12/13 inch to top-of-the-line metal cased "16 inch desktop replacements" lappies and low to mid-level desktops) have been better built, and more easily serviced, than comparable Lenovo, Dell & Acer models I've had my hands on in the same time. Our new MSP pushed Lenovos on us for a batch of 25 or so computers including my latest laptop, and I regret it.
They just didn't have a 15" metal case in the price range so I got a plastic 16". Overall performance is lower than comparably spec'd HP Z-Book Fireflys I was using, when this Thinkpad T16 G4 hits the upper limits of RAM, it feels like it's using swap on a slow platter drive. Even on lower-spec HP Pro & EliteBooks, they slow down at max RAM but don't just freeze. Our staff thrashes the shit out of gear, so finding decently-priced lower-spec metal-bodied laptops is essential.
Even on latest HP laptops I am able to replace RAM, batteries, SSDs without dealing with epoxied sockets. Haven't had to often, but displays and keyboards could be swapped if absolutely needed last time we had to several years ago. That said, the performance of onboard HP Bluetooth sucks compared to others I've used and their stock bloatware is terrible.
Specific to Lenovo, when I was shopping for a bunch of laptops about 3 years ago there were weird gotchas like "I can get every spec I need EXCEPT backlit keyboard, which kicks me up to the next model, at least $300 more/unit" and "Gee, they solder in a low amount of RAM on this one to make you...yup, spend at least $300 more/unit"...
I haven't seen quite that many, but my much limited experience aligns with yours. The Elitebook I currently have is my first and I've been quite happy with it so far. Time will tell if it has other issues like battery bloat or dying fans.
MSPs will push whatever hardware and software they can get preferential deals on (and sometimes kickbacks), so its up to the customer to vote with their dollars. The challenge is: does that decision rest with the CTO or the CFO?
I scored an "open box" Dell Pro 14 Plus on eBay for about 600USD. It's got two USB-A ports, two USB4 ports, built-in Ethernet, 4G LTE, upgradeable storage, and decent Linux support (on Ubuntu LTS at least). The battery is field-replaceable but the 32GB RAM is soldered. (There are other models with upgradeable RAM.)
It's got a middling display (the 2-in-1 display is better) and a somewhat dated Hawk Point SoC, but it's fine for running to a client's site for imaging or network troubleshooting or what have you. I still don't think it's going to last very long, but it's a nice complement to the MacBook I use for client dev work and it didn't break the bank.
Interesting - hadn't heard of that model line from them (but then I spend less time with hardware today than before), and found their 16G model is $669 (Model: PB14255), but non-touch. In looking at the customized version, at least they're not charging stupid money for a touchscreen - $100.75 - BUT going with that custom version means the price now shoots up to $1172.47 !!!
If there was one perfect laptop manufacturer out there, there wouldn't be a need for competition. I care less about ghosting issues since I'm not using mine for gaming or other tasks where image clarity with visual movement is necessary, and more about flexibility with changes in ram and disk size, since those are things I'll likely upgrade over time. Also, most of the time, my laptop is plugged into a dock using monitors instead of the built-in screen.
I've also looked at and really like Framework, but for the times I am using the screen, I require touch, so that's a non-starter.
Thanks. I mostly purchase used computers from 1) Official refurb shops, or 2) My company, because I don't really have the confidence to check quality myself.
I think I'll eventually go for the more expensive route if I want another laptop. Either an Apple refurbed Macbook or some other Linux laptop.
> I'd prefer a "low-end" workstation with 32GB memory, but because of the price point I can only afford a 16GB non-workstation one. I don't do gaming any more but I still prefer a good integrated video card.
I started buying 4x4 mini PCs. They're exactly what you describe. For $600 I got an 8 core AMD Ryzen 7 8745H with 96GB of RAM from Minisforum. The graphics aren't half bad and the overall system has been really good. It's even got better thermal performance than the Intel 4x4 I had previously and generally runs 10C cooler for the same workloads.
If you don't absolutely need a "backpack portable" computer I can only highly recommend them.
Thanks, it sounds interesting. I don't really need the portability of a laptop I think. Whenever I get out, I'm usually with my family, so I actually got very little time spent on the laptop. Plus I have a few laptops already.
I'll check out those mini PCs. The Steam one also looks interesting.
I would say yes. Having been a big fan of Dell and having used it's laptops for both professional and personal uses over many years, I have moved off it to Acer. Couple of reasons - the first is that there is a price premium which I cannot seem to justify and second is the teething / niggling issues which I have had to face in pretty much every Dell I have owned. Sometime, it will be too long a time to wake up from sleep or a random crash which requires me to fetch bitlocker key from my account so that I can boot it up again to driver update issues to the fan continuously running for no reason etc. I had, by chance, a good experience with Acer in the past and since then have purchased a couple fo them more and the experience has been seamless and pleasant. I do hope Dell ups its game as it was an iconic and innovative brand but there is less now to differentiate it from competition and so no reason for the premium to be charged.
> Power management on Macbooks is unbeatable in my experience, both Windows and Linux have really serious issues dealing with sleep and low power modes.
I've been dealing with this recently. Linux won't hibernate if you have Secure Boot enabled, even if your swap is encrypted. So I either have to leave my laptop plugged in all the time or remember to shut it down before unplugging it so it doesn't completely drain its battery while sleeping.
this just sounds absolutely horrendous. I could not operate like this. Is this a general linux on laptop thing or just a specific to your situation thing?
It's... not great. It's a dual-boot laptop that I take out into the field so I'd like to encrypt the Windows and Linux volumes with BitLocker and LUKS respectively, and ideally I would leave Secure Boot enabled for that extra bit of security. Ultimately I'll need to decide whether to disable Secure Boot or patch the kernel to let me override lockdown mode. I know SuSE has implemented it but I don't know if their patch series will apply cleanly to a mainline Ubuntu kernel.
> The Linux kernel disables the possibility of hibernation when Secure Boot is in use because it cannot guarantee that the swap file is unchanged. "Unencrypted hibernation/suspend to swap are disallowed as the kernel image is saved to a medium that can then be accessed."
I think it's specific to their machine? I've got an old Skylake (6600u) machine with Secure Boot disabled that will last a weekend with the lid closed.
This is a general Linux issue. Over the years patches have floated around to address it (like letting people force it to be allowed if their swap is encrypted).
Windows via BootCamp was my laptop nirvana. I'm not sure the emulated Windows experience on newer Macs is the same. No Nvidia inside is also a bit of a dealbreaker.
The move to USB-C is actually great for compatibility across machines. Europe has a directive for companies to implement USB-C to reduce e-waste from chargers.
This. Biggest benefit of USB-C on Laptops to me is not the charger, but the docking station. I have used my 2019 Dell USB-C Dockingstation on various Macbooks AND my MacMini. Plus, modern Monitors are basically USB-C Hubs/Docks and universally compatible with each Laptop. I remember 10-15 years ago when every manufacturer had its own, proprietary dock solution.
At the cost of soldering new usb ports every couple of years (a couple hundred from a local tech) because they are extremely fragile. Fine for phones, I hate it on my laptop.
On top of that, the gan chargers are made as small as possible and overheat all the time. Modern, sleek, enshitified - just like our software!
Never had either of these problems across phones or laptops. What kind of GaN charger are you using that has problems with overheating?
And even in that case, USB-C chargers and cables are available everywhere, unlike proprietary laptop chargers, If the ports are dying on you though, I don't know what to tell you. They seem fine on phones, so I can't see what the problem would be on laptops, unless there are specific models that just have horrible ports.
Dell, they are not wonderful. I have one on a book because it can't sit on the carpet. The other one overheats no matter what, and I have to unplug it for a couple minutes every few hours or it angrily flashes at me and stops charging.
usb chargers and devices have many different voltages and power, and they don't always work very well together. It helps to have one format, but it doesn't mean no charger bloat. Cables are even worse, with wildly different specs, all looking exactly the same. They should require colored shapes or something on the cables to indicate their properties.
Sounds like Dells chargers are garbage. Yet another reason to stay away from Dell in that case. Never had this issue with any charger in my life.
Everything USB should still take normal 5 volts, which any charger should provide without needing negotiation, and anything larger that actually needs more juice also should have the appropriate electronics to handle that (i.e. it's a phone or a laptop or a tablet or similarly expensive device). If you have devices that don't fall into either of those categories, so they don't take normal 5 volts, or they need more juice but are picky about USB, I'd consider them faulty from the get-go, as it's clear they haven't actually implemented USB-PD in any meaningful way. And if your charger doesn't provide 5 volts without asking, it too is faulty.
It's hard to go wrong with charging cables when it comes to USB-C. I agree there's a mess on the data side, but the USB Forum can't even get its head straight with what it should even be called, so it's no wonder nobody there has the balls to mandate colour coding or something similarly helpful.
In this context I am talking about laptops and chargers, which are far less interchangeable. Phones are generally easy, but I would not trust my crappy dell charger to charge my phone without damaging it. What is the saying? In theory, theory and practice are the same, in practice, they are not.
That's Dell making chargers that are as good as their laptops, rather than chargers in general not working fine with any random device. The fact that your product is defective doesn't mean that the entire category its a part of shares it attributes.
1. I have kids and they don't know how to deal with them well. They are not at all aggressive, just a very slightly clumsy as kids tend to be - and the tech is unforgiving. They are human beings and the tech should work for them too.
2. I have a usb-c right here, and the weight of the cable is absolutely distorting the port. It will need to be replaced soon just based on its own self-damage. The cable is not even that heavy. I see all kinds of used devices advertised with the caveat - one usb-c not working. It is very common.
I don't have kids, I'm not that careful with devices myself, and we have had instances of (for instance) laptops that have fallen off a table with usb c chargers plugged in, landing on the cable end, and not breaking the port.
I did break multiple micro-USB ports though, as did ham-fisted family members. USB C made that all go away.
I have friends with kids (with tech) who don't seem to have a ton of broken devices either. Clearly we have very different experiences.
I've got an M1 Macbook Pro for the last 2 years and plug and unplug the USB-C ports multiple times a day for charging and other stuff. Those ports are all still going strong.
I just bought a Thinkpad T14s a couple of months ago. It’s lightweight, has great build quality. I installed Ubuntu and it almost ran out of the box but I ended up having to tinker with it to get My Dell docking station and i3 window manager to work. But that is something I was willing to live with. So far, I have had no complaints. If you’re using Linux, the sleep and standby performance aren’t good. But much better than my previous laptop.
Coming to my previous laptop which I still have with me, I bought a Thinkpad L480 in 2018. It was then a dirt cheap version of a Thinkpad. But it did the job with no complaints. I had to replace the battery after 4 years but that wasn’t an issue. It did everything a daily driver is supposed to do, reliable and never threw a fit. I only had to change it as I felt I needed a better screen and performance. The Intel processor was showing its age.
I have only minor complaints running Thinkpad with Ubuntu. But if you start moving away from popular distros, then you have to accept you will occasionally have to tinker to get things work.
Thanks. Yeah my 470S is still holding strong and I only upgrade the RAM to some 24GB and replaced the two batteries. Now the battery lasts around 4 hours and I'm happy. I do agree that it's showing its age, e.g. having too many tabs in Chrome while playing HD videos in Youtube may stress it a bit, but so far no complaint.
I'll check out the T14s. One of my concerns is: it seems to be more difficult to replace batteries for modern laptops. I tried to remove the battery of the Dell 5550 last night and found it more difficult than the older models. How about the T14s?
As long as you have the small screwdrivers used to tinker with electronics, you’re good.
You can easily open up the laptop.
In my L480, I opened the laptop to change the battery and also install more RAM. Even for a hardware neophyte such as myself , this was straightforward.
Thinkpads are modular, you can easily get the components such as a battery etc. My T14s comes with a 3-year warranty as well.
I have a 2017 Dell XPS13 that's been hammered as a developer laptop and is still going great guns. It's on its third battery, and I've just replaced the screen. I bought a newer one in 2022 and sold it again a couple of months later because, although it had a faster processor and more RAM, it felt flimsier.
I'm also currently upgrading a refurbed Lenovo X270 for my granddaughter who's starting high school, and I am thoroughly impressed. Newer Lenovos are slimmer and slicker, but this thing will still be trucking after the cockroach apocalypse.
I got my first Dell laptop, the XPS15, 5 years ago. Prior to that I had a good 25 years as a Thinkpad die-hard. The XPS has been ... ok. I've had some issues with it resetting for no apparent reason over its life. Frequency varies, but sometimes it'll just blank the screens and then the BIOS comes up on the display, a few times a week, then it'll be good for a month or more.
I had one issue where I needed to ship it back: it would reset and then it was running off the battery, and no matter what port I plugged a charger/docking station into it wouldn't charge until I powered it off and back on again. I got them to do a replacement under warranty a couple years ago.
Around a month ago it was doing the reset fairly frequently and then wouldn't power on sometimes, and I noticed the wrist rest was a little bowed. I replaced the battery pack (kind of a pain, but not the worst I've done), and it was good for around a month, but now it has that "won't charge the battery" issue again. I believe when they did the previous repair they replaced the motherboard, but now I'm out of warranty.
For my next laptop I kind of want a Framework, so I can replace the mobo if I need to. My work likes us to replace hardware no more frequently than every 5-6 years, but we get a warranty for way less than that (my laptop I pushed to get a 4 year).
Meanwhile my previous Thinkpad T470s is still going strong, though the screen just developed a line through it. That's ~10 year old now.
My personal 4 year old Macbook has been a real workhorse, never had any hardware issues with it. My son's macbook has been another story, he's had that in for service 4-5 times in the 3 years he's had it. But, I suspect that is more him than the hardware. I don't baby my MBP, but he is just terrible with things. He's lucky if a pair of glasses can last 6 months, ditto with a phone (usually broken screens), so I'm not sure I can blame the MB Air...
I think we have the exactly same problem with the Dell laptop. Anyway after reading through all comments I figured it is unlikely buy a Dell laptop, and less likely to buy a refurbished one as they only carry a 1-year warranty max (one year for 49 CAD and 100 days for free).
And yeah my 470S is still pretty strong. I started to use it again for my side projects.
I kinda wish I could find a contracting job, so that I can buy an expensive laptop and expense it as cost, and my wife won't cast an angry look towards me, lol.
I have the exact same issue with my XPS 9500. But for me it turned into a daily issue and there's a bunch of forum posts of people having this issue. I think it's a manufacturing defect and Dell just never admitted to it and just gave board replacements to people that had warranty (with plenty of posts of people complaining that the same issue came back after the replacement as well)
I went with an expensive XPS (their "carbon skin model") with the top config 3 years ago. The touch screen failed in less than a year, the battery become useless in 2 years and I am now in my second charger which is failing. The unit feels tired/old though the performance on what matters (cpu/memory/nvme) is still solid so far. I guess anything not made by Dell is holding on.
That's frustrating. I wonder if it changes anything if you had purchased extended Dell care back then. I just checked online that their 4 year basic care costs about 270 CAD so I might go for it if I buy a new one. Did you speak to Dell about this? I'd argue my case even if I had not purchased Dell Care.
But still, failing in a couple of years is really unacceptable. I was thinking 5 years for the battery and another 5 years for everything else. If you and me have to spend some $2,000 every 3-4 years it sounds more like a subscription service.
The other issue is that price point does not guarantee quality for any non-Apple boxes.
I am not US based and Dell service abroad is a joke. I'd check if that Dell Care is "real" as in not similar to "flight insurance" kind of insurance. Since Dell doesn't have the same international service as Apple, the experience will be very localized. I'd see if there is a Dell center nearby and check the reviews.
I had a Dell laptop for work a while back where the MB died 3x in under 2 years... They replaced it all three times, and were a bit sus at the third one... but I literally left it in a locked drawer at work more often than I'd take it home.
The best experiences I've had with Dell hardware have been mid though... worse with HP, won'y buy their stuff at all any more.
I've had mixed to very good experiences with Lenovo... Even their cheaper IdeaPad options. My SO had an IdeaPad that lasted about 7 years, and she was pretty rough on it. Just replaced with another a few months ago. For what it's work, runs PopOS like a dream. On the down side are soldered ram, and shorter vnme drives that have apparently had higher failure rates, already have a replacement ready on a shelf.
My personal laptop is an M1 Air 16gb... it's been a pretty great little box, though with my vision what it is, has been very hard to actually use for much.
Are you really complaining about old battery packs and USB C ports as bad engineering? I think you should try the framework laptop because then you have no excuses about the trivial things.
I can live with the ports as many laptops are moving to it anyway. The battery and the charging port are the major concerns, especially the charging ports as I found out many Dell owners had to get a replacement motherboard, which is way too expensive for me. I'd expect the battery to live for at least 5 years and the whole motherboard should live at least 8 years.
I might mixed up System76 with Framework, I need to double check the subreddit
I've owned a few XPS/X1 high end laptops in my time. Every single one of them had serious design flaws, as in "I'm not buying that again" type design flaw. That's true of every vendor.
I was sucked in by the advertising I guess. They looked very good on paper - good battery life for the time, thin, light, powerful, sleek, latest everything. I've built computer systems for most of my professional career. Looking back on it, how I could have possibly thought some fresh shiny new design first off the production line was going to be rock solid work horse is beyond me. Lack of critical thinking skills I guess.
Now, I buy something like a Dell Latitude. It's an enterprise machine. Translation: a plain, boring design with parts that have been trialed by the XPS/X1 suckers, so most of the bugs are ironed out. Enterprise tends to mean expensive. But they lose 75% of their value in 2 years, so second hand prices are very reasonable, and since Dell offers 5 years warranty on them they can effectively come with the same guarantees as a new one.
Enterprise also means well supported. It's almost night and day. Ring Dell about a Inspiron or even an XPS issue, and you are met with a wall of excuses. Contact them about an Latitude issue, you get a fast response. The one time I wasn't happy with the outcome, I said so in their "how did we go" questionnaire, and they rang me back begging me to let them have another go.
My sweet spot is the Wooking X16 - 7840HS/8845HS from taobao in China for ~500usd
bad trackpad, bad touchpad (bring your own for both), great thermals/performance, good screen, bad speakers, unbeatable value
no usb4 (but has 1x usbc)
I refused to get another thinkpad ever since the T14 AMD gen1 firmware debacle where plugging in a Dell usbc dock would cause the entire device to hard reboot
their firmware garbage is off-putting
I considered framework but the $2k+ price point to me was unreasonable
it's literally cheaper for me to carry around the X16 + kb + mouse/trackpad than to buy a framework 16 (I know that's not the point, but still)
I don't disagree with you. I really really love the hardware -- and BTW it would be a dream if I get to work with OS/Hardware people in Apple. I don't like the software, especially the OS built-ins, but I guess I can find alternatives in App store.
I might eventually go down this route, if I can't find a reasonable good one. I use VMWare in Windows to access Linux on my 5550, so it's not a far stretch to switch the host.
Mac hardware with *true* Linux support would be heaven. I really hope that Framework can keep improving and get to that level eventually (please Framework, release and ARM chip, please)
I have not purchased any laptop recently so I do not know about what is true right now.
However, whenever in the past 20 years I bought a laptop, for a given amount of money there were always laptops with better quality than any Apple model.
Moreover, while the Apple computers are fine for the general population, there are also users like myself, for whom the Apple products lack adequate computational performance. My laptops typically used Intel Xeon/NVIDIA Quadro combos that were much faster than anything sold by Apple and 4k screens and very good keyboards. Apple has a poor reputation for keyboards.
If I bought a laptop right now I would probably choose something with Ryzen 395, which easily beats any Apple CPU for the things in which I am interested, like computations with big integers and FP64 array operations. The very good single-thread GeekBench results of the Apple CPUs are not at all representative of the CPU performance in other kinds of workloads, where the Intel/AMD ISA still provides features not yet available in the Arm-based CPUs.
Why many comments in this thread indicate that at least the consumer laptops made by Dell have a poor quality nowadays, I still have a rather old Dell Precision mobile workstation (sold with Linux) with excellent quality that no Apple laptop ever approached. Of course, such a mobile workstation has poor battery lifetime, incomparable with that of an Apple laptop, but for my needs this is a really minor inconvenient in comparison with its advantages.
Just my 2 cents: I run a tuxedo laptop, that is just a branded clevo device. It isn't as greatly build as a Mac, because nothing is. But my tuxedo works well, nothing broke, or needed any repair. Can recommend. Branded clevo pcs in Germany are used by Schenker, Nexoc, Wortmann, One Computer, MIFCON and more. Internationally, brands like System76, BTO and XNB are using clevo. I've never heard of BTO and XNB, so this might be false information. But I've heard good things from System76.
AMD and Intel support Linux as a first class platform, and everything CPU and GPU from them will work perfectly. Nvidia is on track to match them, albeit on proprietary drivers, if you use the most recent hardware, kernel and drivers. Qualcomm is still basically unusable and so is Apple.
The vast majority of popular and modern wireless chipsets have at least basic drivers in tree. Webcams, touchscreens and pens mostly work. Fingerprint sensors mostly don't work.
System76 has its place. You'll avoid hassle and you'll get the full feature set. You won't have to deal with bizarre edge cases around sleep, multi-gpu, or power saving features.
But truth be told, if you buy a new x86 laptop from any major brand, chances are that everything essential will work instantly or with a bit of tinkering under Linux.
The market is splintered into high-end work laptop, low-end work laptops, gaming laptops. Only Apple has the brand value to be in the first set. Everyone else is in a market for lemons.
I think Apple makes really nice hardware but you can get better specs in as light (or lighter) frame elsewhere.
I can compare AMD T14 Thinkpad to a Macbook. Thinkpad is faster, has more RAM (easy to get 64GB now), better keyboard. It's also louder, hotter and the screen is probably worse (mine is low end so it's significantly worse but idk how high end OLED compares). Macbooks have much better sound. Thinkpad runs Linux while Macbooks (the newest ones) still don't.
I think Apple is winning but not to the extent of being the only game in town.
“Better specs” is precisely why most laptops are garbage. There is no spec for “months until the screen starts visibly ghosting” or “percentage of the time standby doesn’t happen so your laptop is dead when you need it”. So you end up comparing the stats that are available, like GB/$, when for most people these are not the biggest factors in their day to day experience with the device. (If speed and memory are the biggest factors then a laptop is clearly the wrong device.)
ThinkPad T14 G1:
mainboard replaced during first 6 months (cursor moving alone, with jitter, random crashes).
Now 4.5 years in: cursor moving randomly, with jitter (the same symptom as before), when TouchPad is activated. Plus: barely used trackpoint is defect.
That device was mainly used with an external keyboard and mouse -- no excessive usage of the built-ins.
My G11 carbon is tolerable, but I did have a motherboard replacement in mine mid cycle. Known issue with charging just giving up. I like my carbon, but its a lot of money.
I have a gen 1 carbon, a gen 7 carbon and a gen 11. I still think the G1 was best in a lot of silos. The keyboard especially.
The G11 is performing better than the G7 overall, the G7 had the shittiest case so far.
Recently did an analysis on price/performance across Dell, Lenovo and Surface for a customer, and the Lenovos came out at best quality but not price competitive. This was before EOFY however and vendor pricing might have turned over. I also got the impression that both Dell and Lenovo were halfway through launching new product lines, and certain features were only available in either new or old, not both.
The Dell Pro line of laptops seems quite bad, having deployed several. Seems like they are trying to take Latitude and split it into Bad and Worse categories. Cant praise a single thing on it, case feels worse, screens worse, everything just got soggier. But it has an Ultra sticker on it so YMMV.
Thanks, looks like you know a lot about laptops. Do you have a review blog or something similar? I really need to read more reviews before my next purchase. I'm especially interested in the used market.
Top of the line laptops from e.g. 2019 are very cheap and still competitive with current hardware for realistic use. You can find one with an i9 and 64gb of ram for $5-600, you'll just need to plug it in after a few hours!
Don't go ANYWHERE near a macbook pro 2019. Piece of garbage. I had to set mine to 100% fans and it went from 100% to 0% battery in 70 mins when I was streaming a meeting PLUGGED IN WITH A 90W CHARGER! The next time I buy Intel is NEVER.
The 2019 MBP series had serious thermal issues, and a high failure rate. They became insanely hot. Mine died 3 weeks after falling out of AppleCare - just switched off and never on during usage. A friend with the same model had the same thing happending just a few months after. You hardly see any of those still in use (which might also be because people upgrade to M-Series chips which are way better).
For laptops specifically, opening them up and blowing all the dust out can be a huge difference. After that, if the fan is making noise, it's not worth attempting recovery. If attempting this, consider whether your source is cheap enough in the case your test exposes this.
Blowing the dust out does run into the problem of some laptops being designed to only open with use of a chainsaw. I've ruined a couple laptops that way.
I used to buy laptops, and the external quality peaked at different times for different brands (the Asus all aluminum was wonderful, but Sony made some nice stuff twenty years ago as well), but for the actual guts-PCB, power supply, ..., they all seem like the same old sh^t. The monitors get better, but I swear all laptops slow down with age. The only solution is to re-install windows and start over.
I personally prefer desktop workstations. They are better.
>The other issue is that 5550 uses USB-C ports. I blame on myself not checking it closely before the purchase. I really hate those ports. Why is everyone copying from Mac?
It's not copying Apple. It's that every port does everything, including charging. It is standards-compliant.
As just one example, you no longer need to lug a laptop charger with you; there are no longer "computer chargers" and "phone chargers", but one charger that can charge everything, often simultaneously via multiple ports. When you combine this with a docking station, one cable truly does all.
The thing is, everything I bought don't use those ports. I have to buy a new keyboard and a new mouse (wireless mouses also need a driver dongle) for the ports.
And what is worse? New laptops have less ports than the older ones. That 5550 only has 3 ports and 1 is for charging. If I want to mount an external hard drive, I need to bring a hub.
What again, looks like everyone is doing that, so yeah, better embrace it.
The port count is a real problem on modern laptops. I like USB-C, but why are there so few of them? Having to have a hub for basic things is really annoying.
USB-C ports have so many features that require extra connections, which makes them costly. And then adding extra ports without those features gets confusing to the end user if it can't properly communicated.
Imagine having 4 USB-C ports, but 2 of them are USB 2.0 only. Like that but more complicated because it's a feature on a separate controller. Video out, which requires additional connections to the GPU. Power input, done through a USB-PD controller. PCI-E tunneling, taking up PCI-E lanes from the CPU.
Even looking at the Framework Laptop: https://frame.work/laptop16?tab=specs , only the Nvidia GPU USB-C port supports charging while the AMD one doesn't. Look at the section on the "6x user-selectable Expansion Cards" where they list the capabilities of the individual ports. I think different specs for those USB-C ports are less egregious because the idea is to install an expansion card, but giving 6 different USB-C ports like that to a regular user sounds like a bad idea.
> Imagine having 4 USB-C ports, but 2 of them are USB 2.0 only
To be fair, that's already how PC laptops are - they have USB-A ports with random colors and symbols on them that you need to figure out which is the good one, so I don't see why they aren't doing the same with USB-C.
I have a macbook pro. It has 3x USB-C, HDMI, a magsafe charger port, SD slot and audio jack.
I love having a dock, it means I get to hide all the wires behind the desk, and plug the laptop into power, two screens and all the other peripherals with a single cable.
Rapid change and new things are an integral part of planned obsolescence and needing to justify your job to upper management. A sufficiently-repairable laptop with 16 gigs of RAM has absolutely no reason not to work for at least a decade, ideally longer.
Thanks. Another commenter also mentions about a desktop. Maybe I'll go down that route too. The problem is: Linux doesn't support USB wifi driver very well, so I might as well install Windows LTSC and VM into Linux. Oh well.
I have a Lenovo thinkpad T14 gen 1.
Certainly not the fastest, but in have yet to find a problem running Linux. It suspends, hibernates and I haven’t found any quirks yet
Everything works and it’s built like a tank.
Battery has 600 cycles and I still get 4 hrs out of it, when in low power mode.
I’m pretty sure the newer models aren’t that well built and supported. Maybe the gen 3 and 4 of the T14 is similar good. But YMMV..
I'm had 15 months of daily usage (8+ hours per day) of an Asus S16 and it's been pretty great. I haven't been lugging it around very much - mostly just using the 10 cores at my desk to run minikube and WSL and Windows and also gaming on it and I upgraded the SSD to 2GB. I was a longtime thinkpad bigot (T41, T42, T60, T430, T460s) but their near-complete shunning of AMD CPUs has been a FAIL. This laptop had some MediaTek WiFi issues and STILL doesn't always come out of sleep, but the 16" oled is fantastic, it's thinner and lighter and FASTER than a macbook air, I love the build quality and ceraluminum ceramic coating, and it plays just about any 3D game you can think about ... The 31 watt power limit clips all the performance off the hx370 / 890m GPU (32GB RAM) so I went with the hx365 / 880m GPU (24GB RAM). The low amount of RAM is my only complaint.
I bought a Dell XPS M1210 laptop in 2007. About a year later the laptop died. From what I could gather, the soldering on the NVIDIA 7400 graphics card had failed. Some people were apparently able to reflow it but I had no such luck.
In my opinion Dell laptops have never been good. But I never bought another one since that happened, so maybe I've missed out.
Had the same thing with an HP DV7 (IIRC) and nvidia 7600go. Baked it in the oven, and it booted up a handful more times, but ultimately died long before it should have. And I LOVED the more squarish form factor it had.. I got some $$ back from a credit card company (it died before 2 years were up), but I could only find 16:9 replacements..
I've used a Dell Precision 5530 professionally and got a 5570 refurb this year from ebay for ~$800. The fit and finish of the Precision 5000 series is great as far as I'm concerned, though I'm happy the camera is back on top of the screen and would appreciate a 10 key. The work model I used for 3 years and basically the only issue I had was on the Windows side with sleep states (waking up from sleep while commuting). I rarely work long off ac power, but <40% is always kind of a danger zone, especially when doing intensive tasks like CAD modeling. Again, worked connected to Dell workstation dock 90% of the time, so ports are not an issue, but the state of unpowered usbc dongles/micro-docks with hdmi/usba/usbc/++ makes stationary use a non-issue. I also had a 2016 XPS13 I only stopped using as a primary due to lack of ram expansion.
I stopped being a Dell customer after owning 3 XPS for 13 years.
Currently using an Aussie brand named Metabox (metabox.com.au) for virtual production workload on Windows. I've been using a Macbook Pro for the last 5 years for general-purpose tasks. Also using a few $100 "mini PCs" for home automation.
could try asahi? i think it's pretty good on the m1.
lenovos remain good if you get a high spec thinkpad. maybe get a few year old high spec thinkpad new/refurb off ebay with a three year service contract (search "p1 gen 6" on ebay)? i think you can always re-up the service contract on new ones as well.
Yeah I heard a lot of good things about that. I'm a bit reluctant but I think eventually I'm going to give it a try.
I'll check with Dell and Thinkpad if I can buy extended service contracts. AFAIK Dell tops out at 4 years but maybe I can extend that later. I wouldn't mind if I have to pay half of the laptop price to get a 8-10 year contract because new laptops break up way too soon - and every time it is something small but critical, like the charging port thing that many people had to get a new motherboard from Dell.
idk. i don't think there's a good story if you're primarily interested in full-cycle e-waste minimization and avoidance. the mac hardware is good and is designed to live on timescales like that (probably because they are primarily aimed at building a good consumer brand) but it's also impossible to upgrade so there is some built-in planned obsolescence in that regard. (although it can be sold and replaced with other higher spec used gear).
the thinkpad and dell stuff is more upgradable, but is largely aimed at business markets where they plan on refreshing every 3-4 years.
i think maybe you get the most longevity (and possible warranty) out of thinkpad, but sadly none of this stuff is really designed to last that long.
e-waste sucks. unfortunately, our current dominant system of production doesn't really reward design for longevity. refreshing technology on the regular makes for a pleasant consumer experience, i wish it were less environmentally damaging.
framework has an angle on this, but i think in practice they're somewhat equivalent to thinkpads in terms of extendability. i also wonder how much you actually save when you start replacing everything over the long run.
I'd still be on my 2012 Macbook Pro if it weren't for the fact that I seemingly can't get a battery that lasts for it.
I got a 2021 Macbook M1 Pro to replace it, and I can't imagine needing to replace it for at least another 5 years given what I usually need my laptop to do (any really heavy compute gets off-loaded to a desktop). My only worry would be the same as my previous machine: the battery.
I'll give Framework a try when the time comes. It's probably the only one outside of Apple that I have any confidence in not being horrible in some way. There are some other options with decent Linux support, which I would need if I am to migrate away from Apple, but they are few and far between, especially if you rule out Lenovo.
What OS do you use on it? I have a 2014 Macbook Pro and macOS with CoreLegacyPatcher on Ventura was almost unusably slow. Older versions had issues with Safari, no modern Browser support (I found some chromium fork patched for older macOS versions but slow and no full feature support) etc. I installed Linux on it recently and it works better, use it as a secondary machine with some home-network services but would never consider it usable as a working machine.
I was on the latest officially supported OS, which I think was Catelina. No unofficial patches or anything. Had no problems with Firefox (other than battery life, which I didn't need other than it nominally being there).
To be fair, I did replace the SSD early in its lifespan, and I don't use my laptops for anything heavy. It could still play Youtube when I decommissioned it, and that was probably the heaviest thing I regularly did on it.
I don't know about Lenovo but Dell is so cheap, they've shrunk the diameter of even the case screws. All their laptop touchpads fail to draw a straight line over time. On their Insiprions, I know if the CMOS battery dies, the laptop will no longer turn on. Dell is absolute junk.
I remember people I knew at conferences who were extremely fond of Thinkpads due to being Linux geeks (at a time when it was harder to find hardware support for things we now consider basic features like wifi) complaining when it went from IBM to Lenovo the build quality went down. OTOH they were looking at migrating to Dell...
I've had good luck with a Macbook Air and running a Debian VM for anything of import. The build quality is good and I can go to a physical location for repairs.
(Though over time more and more can't be fixed on site sadly.)
I have been using Dell Latitude and Precision for about 15 years and I have have great luck with them. Our guys that work out in the field with the Latitude laptops beat the crap out of them and we have very few issues. Not sure about Lenovo. I think they are called Pro and Pro Plus now.
It seems to be a general phenomenon with most brands that their quality is reduced with time.
There seems to be a lot of profit in buying brands with a reputation for high quality and then replacing it with lower quality and reaping the profits.
It shouldn't be legal if you ask me, it has elements of fraud, the brand should be consistent, Apple implies quality for example, if Apple where to release a cheap badly made product at an expensive price, they would be breaking the brand-contract.
The driver quality (mainly around display and sleep/resume features) has been terrible on my now 2 year old AMD powered Lenovo P14S. I've been using Lenovo laptops since 2001 and this one may push me to another brand for my next purchase. My issues have been seemingly slowly getting better with software updates but it's still really tarnishing the brand reputation/experience for me.
I had a Lenovo Thinkpad L14 Gen [the one with AMD Ryzen 5000 series], and in terms of build quality all I can say is that it's already dead due to motherboard flex (or rather, it can boot but resting my palms below the keyboard gives it a seizure).
So I would never recommend that one, but reportedly this is common among the "low-end" ThinkPads (mine was at around a thousand euros).
I had a work-issued Dell Latitude for several years (2021 model, 11th gen Intel). Overall it was a mediocre machine, but battery life really sucked (like, max 2 hours of light browsing). Several years older Thinkpad T480s gave me way longer usage.
Older Dell models had better general build quality IMO, but also problems with expanding batteries.
For personal stuff just dual boot my old Thinkpad, at work I use Macbook.
About 15 years ago I had a Dell, then two Asus, and about 6 years ago I bought a Lenovo Thinkpad (T490), which I still use. The Thinkpad was a major step up in quality compared to everything I had before - I haven't even needed to replace the battery, though I think it has dropped from around 5 hours to 3-4 (I unplug it multiple times a day, every day, to use it in the kitchen or while sitting on a couch).
I used to be a Dell customer; all my family members had Dell Latitude laptops. But I agree, they got worse. I had a fan break, a key fall out, and Bluetooth issues with some of them, and when it was time to upgrade, I moved to Apple MacBook. It took some time to learn how to work in the macOS environment, but I am happy now.
Thinkpad X1 Carbon gen 13 here. Super happy with it. I do not see any flaws, decent battery lifetime. Perfect linux support. I am calculating 7+ years for that machine. I think its worth it. But there are many other less expensive Lenovo configurations. Not sure about the quality
On battery life: what is decent for you? I wonder, because the T14S that many are vouching for here gives me around 1.5h which is not the best, but I probably will be in the market for an X1 next year, so I wonder what to expect.
I got a Lenovo Legion 7i with a i9-13 and a rtx gpu for work and I have been very happy with it. Build quality is solid imo, it is very upgradable, and the battery size is generous with easily configurable charge limiting. Lenovo also seems to have good support so far. All in all, a professional experience for a consumer device from my point of view.
It’s a mess! Owner of a Lenovo t14s gen3 here.
Standby works for a day then the battery is drained.
My MacBook will be on standby for weeks without any issue.
Lenovo and Microsoft pointing on each other on this one is a shame as it’s not going to be fixed.
I bought a Lenovo laptop a couple of years ago and returned it immediately because it was bizarrely loud and stopped recognizing half of its ram capacity. I got an equivalent HP for a little more, and I've had much less complaints.
Fuck yes. Our 2022 Latitude 5420s have the worst lithium ever -- and Dell is actually offering to get you good batteries for twice the price, as an 'extended service life battery'.
This, and literally all of them have paint chipping off the chassis at the slightest provocation. I have like 50 at work.
edit: we have now a mix of MacBook Airs/Pros (most of workforce), Frameworks (specialized tech roles running Linux and resource-intensive software) and HP ProBooks (run-of-the-mill Windows machines, or just where you don't need anything special at all).
I work in the refurb division of an ewaste recycling company. Those silver Dell laptops are impossible to keep looking good. A coworker once peeled off all the silver and sold a few in black. He said that someone told him that those models never came in black, and had a laugh after explaining that all of them are, because it's under the silver.
Yes, Apple seems to be the only company that actually cares about the quality of their laptop in my experience. And I say that as someone who used to run Linux on my laptops in 2010~18..
On my X1 Carbon 10th gen.... I changed the usb-c ports like 4 times, and now only one works. Not to mention that the black paint peels and it looks horrible.
My sweet spot are thinkpads that are a couple years old, usually. Especially the workstations. You can save a grand or so and they're pretty serviceable.
I have been using MacBooks for the last 20+ years (back then they were called PowerBooks). A couple of days ago I have got a top spec Dell G5 15 5500 and I needed to upgrade the SSD. Oh. my. god. I did not realize the world of PC laptops is that much broken. This Dell has such a dismal quality of everything it's not even funny. Like, I am prepared and ready to pay premium price for premium computer, but why won't Dell create one for me? Do all Windows people need a computer that's shit?
If you already have a macbook why not just buy a PC at this point? You can change parts that break, you won't have to deal with battery issues and if you are on a budget you can only buy what you need today and upgrade later.
edit: to lenovo/dell question I'd say the quality varies by model - lower end thinkpads are better while expensive one got worse. But there are still a lot of differences between a small business series and enterprise. USB-C perfect as a connector, but if it is not replaceble it is a nightmare.
Work got me an hp elite book a few year ago and the only thing negative I have to say about it is that the screen is pathetic! Otherwise it's a decent yet overpriced (unless you buy hundreds of them each year like my work place does) laptop. I used to run arch Linux at work but I was denied my favorite OS this time because it's wasn't compatible with the EDR software... So i cannot tell you how bad it is with Linux.
It still hold its charge but then I mostly work on it plugged either via RDP from my personal workstation at home or from the docking station in my office at the campus. So it has less than 50 charge cycles.
I had a hilarious experience the other day with an (HP) laptop that I thought might be fun to share here.
I've been getting into astrophotography recently, so I went out to my local Astronomy club's dark site in Middle-Of-Nowhere, Ohio, star tracker, DSLR, lens and nearly brand new HP Gaming Laptop I bought specifically for this purpose in tow.
It was cold as shit outside - 25 with a wind chill of just under 15 degrees. But I came prepared, and the club has a small heated clubhouse on the grounds of the site, so I set up all my equipment, did my polar alignment, and left my laptop plugged into a power outlet and remoted into it on my iPad so I could monitor the data capture from inside where it was warm.
About 20 minutes later, I lost remote access to my laptop suddenly. No problem, I thought. I headed outside to go debug what was going on, to find that the laptop had shut down randomly. That's weird. I tried to turn the laptop on, and it spun on the windows logo for over 5 minutes. I got worried that somehow out of all this gear I brought out to the middle of nowhere in the freezing cold, somehow the laptop was what had died. I try force-resetting a few times, to the point where I get the windows recovery environment, and it boots _so slowly_ that I think something is seriously wrong. Then the CMOS battery reset screen comes up (what the fuck?) and I finally get it to boot after about 8 attempts. However, it's so slow it's completely unusable - the CPU is pegged at the lowest possible frequency and just opening up the controller software for my star tracker takes nearly 5 minutes. decide to pack it in for the night, assuming my laptop is dying.
I bring all my equipment inside to tear it down, and leave the laptop in the warmth for 15 or so minutes while I tear everything else down. Then I hear the familiar Windows 11 startup chime behind me. I turn around and the laptop happily boots up, running at full speed, as if nothing was wrong.
Friends, the laptop got _too cold_. I have never experienced this before in my life, and I have put laptops through similarly extreme conditions in the past for other projects, let alone all the Raspberry Pi's I've left to bake in the sun and freeze in the cold. I am so done with modern technology, I want to return to 2011 when Thinkpads were good, Macbooks were great, and phones couldn't break my brain's dopamine circuits. I'm so tired.
Ha! That's a right of passage, lithium ion batteries state of charge drops to almost 0 when it's below freezing. If you left your phone out with your laptop it'd have the same problem. There's actually special phones you can get that are meant to keep functioning below freezing, usually by means of a battery heater.
I too have done the same thing you experienced.
Now I run everything off of a minipc with a lead acid UPS.
This is also why most of your power packs to run astronomy gear are still lead acid and not lithium. Celestron's not just trying to sell you last generation equipment at a steep mark up, there's a reason for it
Lenovo is still good overall. The E-series are actually very nicely built for low end machines, if you can look past the poor colour rendering displays.
Dell, however is absolute trash now from what I’ve seen.
I got a Dell XPS for work a couple years ago on someone's recommendation... one of my worst-ever decisions.
The touchpad sucks and routinely breaks requiring restarts, constantly having driver issues (and you have to deal with the capital-N Nightmare that is SupportAssist for drivers), graphics card is busted and makes the display driver crash once a month.
Power states are completely broken. Laptop will randomly turn on when it's in my bag and rev up to ten thousand degrees. Laptop will randomly, when on full battery and closed, decide to hard-shutoff leading to a windows recovery boot.
Decides to do BIOS updates when it's at 3% battery in the middle of the night, then when I wake up for work the next morning it has to go through a ten-minute recovery sequence.
Battery is swelling after only a couple years of use, which sometimes causes keys on the keyboard to stop working. In the middle of a slack convo I've had to type "Sorrymyspacebarstoppedworkinggottarestartmycomputer".
BSODs, hard drive corruption, you name it. Never buy Dell. Not that there's many good options out there unless you're willing to drop two week's pay on a Framework - but anything is better than Dell.
EDIT: Another I thought of - sound card is busted and sounds like it has a low pass filter on it. I know it's not a speaker issue because on occasion it magically fixes itself until the next restart.
Power states are completely broken. Laptop will randomly turn on when it's in my bag and rev up to ten thousand degrees.
If it was in sleep - Dell themselves recommend completely switching off a laptop before putting it inside a backpack:
https://www.dell.com/community/en/conversations/xps/faq-mode...
For somebody who has used MacBooks the last 18 years, this is insane.
The laptops waking up in the backpack until the thermal security triggers or the battery is empty is a Microsoft Windows thing.
Ime turning windows laptops off is really hard. You tell them to shutdown and they restart for some reason, and it does not seem to be update related because it happens with laptops completely offline too. So you may think that you have shut them down, close the lid, but actually they reboot and when you get to them again they are dead. This happens with some dell laptops but I do not think it is just them. Not all the time but very randomly.
I haven't found a way to tell Windows 10 to hibernate other than making that the power button action in power options. Maybe because it's a laptop but it starts immediately after hibernating and your have to hold the power button to fully turn it off. This works and skips any forced updates Windows wants to do. It is very janky and I think ms does it to make skipping updates harder.
Apparently "update and shutdown does a restart instead" was very recently finally fixed: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45797934
To shut Windows down, press Win+R to see the Run dialog and then type shutdown /s /t 0
I've seen it on my system 76 (clevo) laptop from 2019 on linux, and on windows on the same hardware. I think its a firmware power state design bug. I have a lenovo from 2012 that never had this problem.
same manufacturer and vintage (maybe 2020?), and same problem.
Not really - my Dell Precision (Ubuntu Certified even) frequently have problems going to sleep. To be fair - technically it doesn't wake up in the backpack - it fails to sleep in the first place. But if you don't pay attention you wont notice the failure so I'd say that's very close to just as bad.
I have never understood why some people want to avoid switching off their computers.
I have stopped using Apple laptops more than 15 years ago and since then I have used only Linux laptops.
I have no idea whether hibernate worked on my laptops, because this is a feature for which I have never felt any need.
I always take care to optimize the boot time on my computers with custom built kernels and carefully selected daemons (and I do not use systemd). For decades, the boot time on my laptops had been of perhaps twenty seconds at most and the biggest delay in starting to use the computers after being powered off is entering a password to unlock them, not the start-up of the OS. Using something like hibernation instead of complete power off would speed up negligibly the process of beginning to work on the computer.
> I have never understood why some people want to avoid switching off their computers
> I always take care to optimize the boot time on my computers with custom built kernels and carefully selected daemons
Pop open the lid, be right back to where you were. No amount of boot time optimizations will trump that.
The desk to meeting room use case. Dont know how we survived pre laptop but somehow we did. Meeting room had its own PC I think back then.
Yeah, you'd log on with your credentials and then get the files you needed from the network share.
Meetings didn't generally require computers back then. We're talking about The Overhead Projector transparencies era.
Sleep is just different from shut down. With an unplugged laptop, after an idle period or by shutting the lid, I'd like the machine to save energy. I haven't always taken the steps to prepare for a shut down, saving open documents. I wouldn't like to wake back up an idle machine to see that my programs had all been closed.
And sometimes I'd like to quickly put a laptop into a bag without waking it up just to shut it down first. If I had a way to transition from sleep to shut down I'd use it, but also... this is where I see that if the sleep state were more perfect (used zero energy, zero unintended wakeups), it would obviate my need to shut down most of the time.
So what you’re saying is that you don’t understand why everyone doesn’t run Linux, use custom built kernels, and choose their daemons carefully?
Or I can just use my M2 MacBook Air where hibernate works properly, wakes instantly, last 12-18 hours on one charge, runs quiet and I can actually use it on my lap without worrying about becoming sterile from the heat…
It's all about trade-offs really.
In this case, a laptop sometimes waking up in a bag vs a constantly and deliberately cripled GUI and keyboard.
The recent-ish Dell XPS I had for work was the worst hardware I've ever had in my entire life, full stop. The touchpad was an abomination. Like, nobody bothered to use it before it shipped. Just completely broken. I also experienced everything else you experienced with regard to power management. That fact that a team of human beings could create something so awful actually made me depressed.
Very happy with my framework when I switched jobs. And my asus zenbook was also great.
I’ve been using a zenbook for about 8 years now. Hardware and battery are still surprisingly solid, although one of the hinges is starting to fail…
Does your job actually give you a Framework? Where do you work?! I’d like to join.
Yep, I had the high end "Developer Edition" a while back and it was a terrible experience. Very hot, build quality was poor, touchpad was small, speakers were terrible. I don't think I could use anything other than a MacBook now.
Got a dell xps with the 3 year onsite and accidental damage. Laptop was shit, but after a few repairs, motherboard replacement then complete unit replaced, it is working really well!
Although id probably not get xps again.
My last decent PC laptop was a Lenovo Thinkpad T530. That thing was a chunky black brick and felt like it was made from recycled Soviet-era tanks. Super modular, easy to upgrade RAM, drives, etc.
I got practically 10 years out of it. My next machine was a Dell XPS (Infinity Edge) laptop. I ordered it direct from Dell, unboxed it, turned it on and let it run the standard set of Windows updates. Came back an hour later and it was hung in a BSOD state. Rebooted and everything seemed to be working smoothly again but it was... concerning so I left it running overnight. Came back to YET ANOTHER BSOD the next morning and was like F### this.
Immediately RMA and sent it back. If your QC is a hot circle of garbage for a nearly $3000 machine then I have zero faith in your company.
I am resisting the urge to detail my insane story with my most recent Dell XPS purchase. Long story short, I will never again buy a Dell laptop. I went months without my machine during a critical time. I kept getting it back in worse shape than it was before I sent it for repair. After months of pure insanity, I just accepted that I'll never have a properly function touchpad again. At least they finally got a working motherboard put in it. I'm feeling waves of rage and anger just thinking back to what they put me through. Never again. I won't even accept a Dell as a work laptop again. Never.
Its such a contrast to the Dell I used to know. Back in 2012 I had the hard drive in my Dell laptop sale and had the Dell small business service contract and they sent out a guy to replace it that afternoon, right there in front of me in the office. I was without my machine for 4 hours. That is what Dell used to be like.
I guess they don't find enough profit in this? TBH I'm OK to pay say 4,000 CAD + for a top tier, 64GB mobile workstation (don't care about video card, Arc is good enough), and +500 CAD for a 10-year care. And I don't even need someone to come over to my home. As long as I can mail or drop to some place I'm fine.
The problem today is -- even with a similar price point (like top tier Dell mobile workstation does cost 3,000+ CAD), I'm not sure how long it lasts. It could be 5 years, it could be 5 months, I have no confidence in it.
It was a £1500 laptop and a £100 for 2 year small business warranty support.
That's indeed a bit on the premium side. Back then GBPCAD is about 1.6, so 2,400 CAD and 160 for 2-year support. That's like roughly my monthly net income back in 2018 (just got into IT).
About six months ago I had a Dell Optiplex motherboard fail and they attempted to schedule a tech to come out the following day. I was not available for that and scheduled it a few days later but they did make as full of an effort as can be reasonably expected to make it happen within one business day.
The default warranty on at least the Optiplex line is one year of next business day service and upgrading to three years is cheap. I've never had a situation where same day service was worth the extra cost but it is an option.
I had the same experience in 2021 when the mobo died on a laptop that I bought slightly less than a year before. I was bothered by the failure but understand sometimes things just break. The service quality was good.
I'm not dealing with the scale other people are in here. We should take the ancedotes of personal laptops with a grain of salt. Anyone pushing the scale that Dell does will have incidents where service runs totally off the rails. I don't know how they stack up at scale but I'm reading this thread with interest. When I'm due for a laptop upgrade Dell will still be in the running but right now Framework might be the one to get my business.
When I bought my XPS 15 in 2023, I got the "extended care" package (name may differ). Last year I had an issue with the graphics card no longer being detected, and they sent someone over to replace the mobo two days later. Support was very good.
No power issues and such either, but I don't run Windows on it. Only problem I notice is audible whine coming from the speakers when charging and doing GPU work, like scrolling.
Not great, not terrible?
That's really sad. Where are you located if I may ask? Some other commenters mentioned that Dell care is not great outside of the US (I'm in Canada so concerned).
I was in Colorado at the time.
I recently got a new Thinkpad for work, can't recall which model. I think L series?
The build quality is nicer than my T530. The bottom cover doesn't have access panels anymore, but it's got just a few captive(!!) screws and the whole bottom comes off. Everything is neatly exposed and you don't need to access the top of the board at all. The bottom cover has plastic clips along with the screws, but they're spring loaded! They aren't simply molded in and cannot snap off. It's some incredible attention to detail.
I've noticed that most recent laptops have the vent behind the screen hinge where it's completely blocked if the screen is closed. Thinkpad has the vent fully exposed. In fact, it exposes more vent when the screen is closed.
Too bad the CPU is a lemon. One of the new AMD chips with a built in NPU. The NPU is slower than the integrated graphics for inference. Not a discrete card, just the GPU baked into the chip.
In contrast, I got a hand-me-down Dell XPS-something from 2020 when I first started this job. It idles IDLES! at 100°C. I tried to re-paste the CPU, but the heat pipes were so small and thin that I crushed one between my fingers. Even with massive airflow through the case from external fans, it never drops below 100C. Absolutely inexcusable.
Looks to me like Lenovo still has it. At least if you're paying real money for a professional level machine. This new Thinkpad is now my #1 most repairable and maintainable machine. T530 is a close second. Absolutely every other laptop I've ever used is tied for last place in the garbage.
> The NPU is slower than the integrated graphics for inference.
Yeah, that's expected. On consumer devices, the NPUs are not optimizing for speed and they're not meant to out-perform the GPU. They are optimizing for low power consumption. They want to be able to run simple AI tasks without turning your laptop into a frying pan, so that is where the NPU comes in.
Quoting wikipedia:
> On consumer devices, the NPU is intended to be small, power-efficient, but reasonably fast when used to run small models.
I had the same xps nightmare. I fixed it by getting a PTM7950 phase change thermal pad for cpu and gpu, and swapping to Linux (which I would have done anyways). Went from 100c to 49c idle. PTM7950 is incredible.
On the one hand, PTM7950 is really good. On the other hand, a 50 degree temperature drop can't really be explained by anything other than something being terribly wrong to begin with. That thing might unfortunately be Dell, but I'd imagine if more than three brain cells were involved in temperature management design of that machine, it wouldn't have been quite as catastrophic.
Yes of course. I am unhappy with the device for several reasons. Too bad, because they almost got it right in so many other ways. My wife's smaller and slightly less powerful xps is doing great on the other hand.
The XPS I have very aggressively keeps the fans off. They don't kick on at all until 80° or so. Of course there's no way to change it other than a userspace daemon.
You actually have three, AI accelerators: the CPU's SIMD, the NPU, and iGPU. Using them simultaneously could be interesting. It might require custom work, though.
If there are any LLM frameworks that can shard over disparate processor architectures I haven't heard of it.
It'd be pretty cool for sure, but you'd be absolutely strangled by memory bandwidth, I'd expect. LLM sure the chipset would not at all enjoy trying to route all that RAM to three processors at once.
No doubt. I had a few ideas for what might be done:
1. Put the tokenizers or other lower-performance parts on the NPU.
2. Pipelining that moves things through different models or layers on different hardware.
3. If multiple layers, put most of them on the fastest part with a small number on the others. Like with hardware clocking, the ratio is decided to ensure the slower ones don't drag down overall performance.
In things like game or real-time AI's, esp multimodal, there's even more potential as some parts could be on different chips.
Lenovo has tons of options that you can configure to your delight including with Ubuntu pre-installed, well below your $2000CAD price limit. I'd be surprised if you can't get one with USB-A ports:
https://www.lenovo.com/us/en/d/linux-laptops-desktops/
And as I often state here, Chromebooks have a Debian Linux distro 2 clicks away, including the ability to run X11 GUI programs like VSCode and Cursor for software development.
Because it's an integrated OS/hardware product, there's no fussing with display drivers or power management issues. It all "just works". High performance models kitted out with 16GB RAM and USB A and C ports can be purchased for < $800USD, like:
https://www.acer.com/us-en/chromebooks/acer-chromebook-plus-...
If high-performance is less of a concern, you can get models with very usable performance for < $500USD.
Yeah you are right. Just checked out Lenovo ThinkPad L16 Gen 1 with 32GB ram and it costs 1,143 CAD (it's a deal but the original cost is still < 2,000 CAD). I was thinking more about workstations back then, but I probably don't need one TBH. I guess my X1 Carbon experience kinda tarnished my view of Lenovo laptops.
I miss so much the first generation of the Dell XPS 13 dev edition. I think that we were almost at the top of the curve in term of quality/price. Only a few things could have been fixed (like the webcam at the bottom of the screen) and it would have been perfect.
But, sadly, next generations went deep shit instead.
Nowadays, I have a very hard time selecting a laptop that would fit my needs, even disregarding the price. One of the worst feature in term of offender is the keyboard: Manufacturers are going on with this totally stupid unergonomic trend of having "half size" enter keys, removing page-up/page-down keys, and hiding directional arrows behind over keys needing to use the "FN+other_key" to be able to use the arrow.
Not sure if it meets the performance criteria you would need, but the higher end Microsoft Surface Laptop is on par with Apple MBP build quality wise from my experiences. I got one from work a few years ago and it’s now my preferred non-mac laptop. I think their marketing is hurting them as I assumed it was the hybrid tablet Surface initially but they make a pure laptop too and that’s what I’m recommending
Jeez, the keyboards!
OK we probably have different preferences, but I really hate:
1. Arrow keys have different sizes
2. page up/down right up arrow keys (very easy to touch those accidentally)
So far I really love the Macbook Pro layout. I wonder why no one tried to copy it, considering they tried to copy everything else.
As someone also trying to get out of (or at least less dependent on) the Apple ecosystem, the laptop market sucks! Everyone but Apple is making the same garbage-tier, shoddy, plastic laptops with bottom of the barrel components that I'm sure are engineered to just barely work enough to avoid immediate product returns.
I'm starting to accept that if I want a development workstation class machine, I need to build a tower from components.
When you walk into a Best Buy, the small majority of non-Apple laptops seem to be made of metal, even the $300 Chromebooks. They look and feel more premium, but probably aren't.
The sad thing is that plastic should be the best material to make laptops from. It's lighter, and it gives when dropped. Think about the cases everybody puts on their phones. They're not made of solid metal, for good reason.
The old Thinkpads had it right, they used a magnesium frame surrounded by high quality plastic.
My MacBook Pro is well made, but it's also a pound heavier than it needs to be.
When I walk into those kind of shops I press a few keys of every laptop and check which keyboard flex. Usually the cheap laptops flex and the expensive ones don't. By cheap I mean 300 or 400 Euro and by expensive I mean 800 or 1000 Euro or more. Some laptops that flex are made of metal, some that do not flex are made of plastic. My HP ZBook 15 from 2014 is rock solid and does not flex even if it's mostly plastic. There is a catch: the keyboard is built with a sheet of metal on the bottom, so it's very rigid. The laptop itself has a frame of metal and a shell of plastic. It's definitely not light, one of those laptops in the 3 kg category (6 lbs?) and definitely not cheap. It's also built for total repairability: it opens with no screws and I can replace everything even the CPU and the GPU l. I replaced the HDD and the DVD with 2 SSDs, maxed out the RAM to 32 GB and replaced the keyboard many times, when keys eventually wear and start to fail. I'd buy it again, with modern components (NVME bus, DDR5 RAM) and without the number pad so I can center the space bar and the touchpad.
I've been considering Framework or System 76 when my Macbook Pro finally dies.
But that means spending ~$1600-2000 (though, about how much my MBP cost).
It seems to take some good research or a clutch recommendation to spend less than that while getting what I want. And I don't understand how 1080p is still such a common resolution.
Thinkpad T models (and other "professional" lines) are fine IME, Framework laptops supposedly too. These Thinkpads use a combination of fiber reinforced plastics and magnesium for their cases. Aluminum is actually not the ideal material for laptop cases.
> Aluminum is actually not the ideal material for laptop cases.
Why? It works and it is very lightweight.
It dents and it's heavier than magnesium or fiber-reinforced plastic. You might have heard of some related changes in airplane technology.
Magnesium has a tendency to combust, and corrodes rapidly in the presence of water. Plastic feels like plastic, and doesn't conduct heat very well.
I'm personally not a fan of putting my hands on something with good heat conduction! It's nice for passively cooled cases (that you don't put on your lap), but that has pretty severe TDP limitations.
Magnesium and plastic burn better.
Also aluminum is quite good at heat transfer.
Wait....
Yes, it's a race to the bottom for most. Lots of plastic and soldered, non-upgradeable components, and a lack of ports. The used market is tricky to navigate thanks to the proliferation of model names and numbers, so little to no salvation there either. Spend a bit more for something that will last a bit longer (MacBook) and/or be upgradeable (frame.work), or accept a cheaper model (e.g. Dell Pro) that will likely need to be replaced in a couple years.
HP Probook or Elitebook models have upgradable ram, SSD, and are generally serviceable. You can usually find the previous generation on ebay for an inexpensive price.
I've had about 400 Windows HP laptops/200 desktops through my hands running IT for a nonprofit. They are not perfect, but the different models (from cheapo plastic-case 12/13 inch to top-of-the-line metal cased "16 inch desktop replacements" lappies and low to mid-level desktops) have been better built, and more easily serviced, than comparable Lenovo, Dell & Acer models I've had my hands on in the same time. Our new MSP pushed Lenovos on us for a batch of 25 or so computers including my latest laptop, and I regret it.
They just didn't have a 15" metal case in the price range so I got a plastic 16". Overall performance is lower than comparably spec'd HP Z-Book Fireflys I was using, when this Thinkpad T16 G4 hits the upper limits of RAM, it feels like it's using swap on a slow platter drive. Even on lower-spec HP Pro & EliteBooks, they slow down at max RAM but don't just freeze. Our staff thrashes the shit out of gear, so finding decently-priced lower-spec metal-bodied laptops is essential.
Even on latest HP laptops I am able to replace RAM, batteries, SSDs without dealing with epoxied sockets. Haven't had to often, but displays and keyboards could be swapped if absolutely needed last time we had to several years ago. That said, the performance of onboard HP Bluetooth sucks compared to others I've used and their stock bloatware is terrible.
Specific to Lenovo, when I was shopping for a bunch of laptops about 3 years ago there were weird gotchas like "I can get every spec I need EXCEPT backlit keyboard, which kicks me up to the next model, at least $300 more/unit" and "Gee, they solder in a low amount of RAM on this one to make you...yup, spend at least $300 more/unit"...
I haven't seen quite that many, but my much limited experience aligns with yours. The Elitebook I currently have is my first and I've been quite happy with it so far. Time will tell if it has other issues like battery bloat or dying fans.
MSPs will push whatever hardware and software they can get preferential deals on (and sometimes kickbacks), so its up to the customer to vote with their dollars. The challenge is: does that decision rest with the CTO or the CFO?
I scored an "open box" Dell Pro 14 Plus on eBay for about 600USD. It's got two USB-A ports, two USB4 ports, built-in Ethernet, 4G LTE, upgradeable storage, and decent Linux support (on Ubuntu LTS at least). The battery is field-replaceable but the 32GB RAM is soldered. (There are other models with upgradeable RAM.)
It's got a middling display (the 2-in-1 display is better) and a somewhat dated Hawk Point SoC, but it's fine for running to a client's site for imaging or network troubleshooting or what have you. I still don't think it's going to last very long, but it's a nice complement to the MacBook I use for client dev work and it didn't break the bank.
Interesting - hadn't heard of that model line from them (but then I spend less time with hardware today than before), and found their 16G model is $669 (Model: PB14255), but non-touch. In looking at the customized version, at least they're not charging stupid money for a touchscreen - $100.75 - BUT going with that custom version means the price now shoots up to $1172.47 !!!
This. The Elitebooks are quite nice, except for the cheap screen options (prone to ghosting).
If there was one perfect laptop manufacturer out there, there wouldn't be a need for competition. I care less about ghosting issues since I'm not using mine for gaming or other tasks where image clarity with visual movement is necessary, and more about flexibility with changes in ram and disk size, since those are things I'll likely upgrade over time. Also, most of the time, my laptop is plugged into a dock using monitors instead of the built-in screen.
I've also looked at and really like Framework, but for the times I am using the screen, I require touch, so that's a non-starter.
Thanks. I mostly purchase used computers from 1) Official refurb shops, or 2) My company, because I don't really have the confidence to check quality myself.
I think I'll eventually go for the more expensive route if I want another laptop. Either an Apple refurbed Macbook or some other Linux laptop.
> I'd prefer a "low-end" workstation with 32GB memory, but because of the price point I can only afford a 16GB non-workstation one. I don't do gaming any more but I still prefer a good integrated video card.
I started buying 4x4 mini PCs. They're exactly what you describe. For $600 I got an 8 core AMD Ryzen 7 8745H with 96GB of RAM from Minisforum. The graphics aren't half bad and the overall system has been really good. It's even got better thermal performance than the Intel 4x4 I had previously and generally runs 10C cooler for the same workloads.
If you don't absolutely need a "backpack portable" computer I can only highly recommend them.
Thanks, it sounds interesting. I don't really need the portability of a laptop I think. Whenever I get out, I'm usually with my family, so I actually got very little time spent on the laptop. Plus I have a few laptops already.
I'll check out those mini PCs. The Steam one also looks interesting.
do you have a link to the $600 PC?
I would say yes. Having been a big fan of Dell and having used it's laptops for both professional and personal uses over many years, I have moved off it to Acer. Couple of reasons - the first is that there is a price premium which I cannot seem to justify and second is the teething / niggling issues which I have had to face in pretty much every Dell I have owned. Sometime, it will be too long a time to wake up from sleep or a random crash which requires me to fetch bitlocker key from my account so that I can boot it up again to driver update issues to the fan continuously running for no reason etc. I had, by chance, a good experience with Acer in the past and since then have purchased a couple fo them more and the experience has been seamless and pleasant. I do hope Dell ups its game as it was an iconic and innovative brand but there is less now to differentiate it from competition and so no reason for the premium to be charged.
Using Macbooks spoils you. They're so well made that almost everything else feels shoddy.
There's also the software/hardware integration side.
Power management on Macbooks is unbeatable in my experience, both Windows and Linux have really serious issues dealing with sleep and low power modes.
On the Lenovo side, the only one I'm still reasonably happy with is my Thinkpad, but it pales compared to a Macbook (Air, Pro or whatever).
> Power management on Macbooks is unbeatable in my experience, both Windows and Linux have really serious issues dealing with sleep and low power modes.
I've been dealing with this recently. Linux won't hibernate if you have Secure Boot enabled, even if your swap is encrypted. So I either have to leave my laptop plugged in all the time or remember to shut it down before unplugging it so it doesn't completely drain its battery while sleeping.
this just sounds absolutely horrendous. I could not operate like this. Is this a general linux on laptop thing or just a specific to your situation thing?
It's... not great. It's a dual-boot laptop that I take out into the field so I'd like to encrypt the Windows and Linux volumes with BitLocker and LUKS respectively, and ideally I would leave Secure Boot enabled for that extra bit of security. Ultimately I'll need to decide whether to disable Secure Boot or patch the kernel to let me override lockdown mode. I know SuSE has implemented it but I don't know if their patch series will apply cleanly to a mainline Ubuntu kernel.
It's a Linux thing.
> The Linux kernel disables the possibility of hibernation when Secure Boot is in use because it cannot guarantee that the swap file is unchanged. "Unencrypted hibernation/suspend to swap are disallowed as the kernel image is saved to a medium that can then be accessed."
https://wiki.debian.org/Hibernation
I think it's specific to their machine? I've got an old Skylake (6600u) machine with Secure Boot disabled that will last a weekend with the lid closed.
This is a general Linux issue. Over the years patches have floated around to address it (like letting people force it to be allowed if their swap is encrypted).
https://man7.org/linux/man-pages/man7/kernel_lockdown.7.html
> with Secure Boot disabled
That's why it works for you. Enable secure boot and you lose hibernate.
Windows via BootCamp was my laptop nirvana. I'm not sure the emulated Windows experience on newer Macs is the same. No Nvidia inside is also a bit of a dealbreaker.
The move to USB-C is actually great for compatibility across machines. Europe has a directive for companies to implement USB-C to reduce e-waste from chargers.
This. Biggest benefit of USB-C on Laptops to me is not the charger, but the docking station. I have used my 2019 Dell USB-C Dockingstation on various Macbooks AND my MacMini. Plus, modern Monitors are basically USB-C Hubs/Docks and universally compatible with each Laptop. I remember 10-15 years ago when every manufacturer had its own, proprietary dock solution.
At the cost of soldering new usb ports every couple of years (a couple hundred from a local tech) because they are extremely fragile. Fine for phones, I hate it on my laptop.
On top of that, the gan chargers are made as small as possible and overheat all the time. Modern, sleek, enshitified - just like our software!
Never had either of these problems across phones or laptops. What kind of GaN charger are you using that has problems with overheating?
And even in that case, USB-C chargers and cables are available everywhere, unlike proprietary laptop chargers, If the ports are dying on you though, I don't know what to tell you. They seem fine on phones, so I can't see what the problem would be on laptops, unless there are specific models that just have horrible ports.
Dell, they are not wonderful. I have one on a book because it can't sit on the carpet. The other one overheats no matter what, and I have to unplug it for a couple minutes every few hours or it angrily flashes at me and stops charging.
usb chargers and devices have many different voltages and power, and they don't always work very well together. It helps to have one format, but it doesn't mean no charger bloat. Cables are even worse, with wildly different specs, all looking exactly the same. They should require colored shapes or something on the cables to indicate their properties.
Sounds like Dells chargers are garbage. Yet another reason to stay away from Dell in that case. Never had this issue with any charger in my life.
Everything USB should still take normal 5 volts, which any charger should provide without needing negotiation, and anything larger that actually needs more juice also should have the appropriate electronics to handle that (i.e. it's a phone or a laptop or a tablet or similarly expensive device). If you have devices that don't fall into either of those categories, so they don't take normal 5 volts, or they need more juice but are picky about USB, I'd consider them faulty from the get-go, as it's clear they haven't actually implemented USB-PD in any meaningful way. And if your charger doesn't provide 5 volts without asking, it too is faulty.
It's hard to go wrong with charging cables when it comes to USB-C. I agree there's a mess on the data side, but the USB Forum can't even get its head straight with what it should even be called, so it's no wonder nobody there has the balls to mandate colour coding or something similarly helpful.
In this context I am talking about laptops and chargers, which are far less interchangeable. Phones are generally easy, but I would not trust my crappy dell charger to charge my phone without damaging it. What is the saying? In theory, theory and practice are the same, in practice, they are not.
That's Dell making chargers that are as good as their laptops, rather than chargers in general not working fine with any random device. The fact that your product is defective doesn't mean that the entire category its a part of shares it attributes.
What do you do to machines that they need a new port every couple of years?!
I used to have issues with the oldeer micro-usb ports, but since USB C came along I don't think I've had a single failure.
1. I have kids and they don't know how to deal with them well. They are not at all aggressive, just a very slightly clumsy as kids tend to be - and the tech is unforgiving. They are human beings and the tech should work for them too.
2. I have a usb-c right here, and the weight of the cable is absolutely distorting the port. It will need to be replaced soon just based on its own self-damage. The cable is not even that heavy. I see all kinds of used devices advertised with the caveat - one usb-c not working. It is very common.
I don't have kids, I'm not that careful with devices myself, and we have had instances of (for instance) laptops that have fallen off a table with usb c chargers plugged in, landing on the cable end, and not breaking the port.
I did break multiple micro-USB ports though, as did ham-fisted family members. USB C made that all go away.
I have friends with kids (with tech) who don't seem to have a ton of broken devices either. Clearly we have very different experiences.
I've got an M1 Macbook Pro for the last 2 years and plug and unplug the USB-C ports multiple times a day for charging and other stuff. Those ports are all still going strong.
I'm curious which devices did you need to replace the port on?
I've had to replace a few cables, but have never had issues with USB-C sockets.
I just bought a Thinkpad T14s a couple of months ago. It’s lightweight, has great build quality. I installed Ubuntu and it almost ran out of the box but I ended up having to tinker with it to get My Dell docking station and i3 window manager to work. But that is something I was willing to live with. So far, I have had no complaints. If you’re using Linux, the sleep and standby performance aren’t good. But much better than my previous laptop.
Coming to my previous laptop which I still have with me, I bought a Thinkpad L480 in 2018. It was then a dirt cheap version of a Thinkpad. But it did the job with no complaints. I had to replace the battery after 4 years but that wasn’t an issue. It did everything a daily driver is supposed to do, reliable and never threw a fit. I only had to change it as I felt I needed a better screen and performance. The Intel processor was showing its age.
I have only minor complaints running Thinkpad with Ubuntu. But if you start moving away from popular distros, then you have to accept you will occasionally have to tinker to get things work.
Thanks. Yeah my 470S is still holding strong and I only upgrade the RAM to some 24GB and replaced the two batteries. Now the battery lasts around 4 hours and I'm happy. I do agree that it's showing its age, e.g. having too many tabs in Chrome while playing HD videos in Youtube may stress it a bit, but so far no complaint.
I'll check out the T14s. One of my concerns is: it seems to be more difficult to replace batteries for modern laptops. I tried to remove the battery of the Dell 5550 last night and found it more difficult than the older models. How about the T14s?
As long as you have the small screwdrivers used to tinker with electronics, you’re good. You can easily open up the laptop.
In my L480, I opened the laptop to change the battery and also install more RAM. Even for a hardware neophyte such as myself , this was straightforward.
Thinkpads are modular, you can easily get the components such as a battery etc. My T14s comes with a 3-year warranty as well.
I have a 2017 Dell XPS13 that's been hammered as a developer laptop and is still going great guns. It's on its third battery, and I've just replaced the screen. I bought a newer one in 2022 and sold it again a couple of months later because, although it had a faster processor and more RAM, it felt flimsier.
I'm also currently upgrading a refurbed Lenovo X270 for my granddaughter who's starting high school, and I am thoroughly impressed. Newer Lenovos are slimmer and slicker, but this thing will still be trucking after the cockroach apocalypse.
I have a similar vintage XPS13, it's a total tank. I'm sad to hear they're flimsy now.
I got my first Dell laptop, the XPS15, 5 years ago. Prior to that I had a good 25 years as a Thinkpad die-hard. The XPS has been ... ok. I've had some issues with it resetting for no apparent reason over its life. Frequency varies, but sometimes it'll just blank the screens and then the BIOS comes up on the display, a few times a week, then it'll be good for a month or more.
I had one issue where I needed to ship it back: it would reset and then it was running off the battery, and no matter what port I plugged a charger/docking station into it wouldn't charge until I powered it off and back on again. I got them to do a replacement under warranty a couple years ago.
Around a month ago it was doing the reset fairly frequently and then wouldn't power on sometimes, and I noticed the wrist rest was a little bowed. I replaced the battery pack (kind of a pain, but not the worst I've done), and it was good for around a month, but now it has that "won't charge the battery" issue again. I believe when they did the previous repair they replaced the motherboard, but now I'm out of warranty.
For my next laptop I kind of want a Framework, so I can replace the mobo if I need to. My work likes us to replace hardware no more frequently than every 5-6 years, but we get a warranty for way less than that (my laptop I pushed to get a 4 year).
Meanwhile my previous Thinkpad T470s is still going strong, though the screen just developed a line through it. That's ~10 year old now.
My personal 4 year old Macbook has been a real workhorse, never had any hardware issues with it. My son's macbook has been another story, he's had that in for service 4-5 times in the 3 years he's had it. But, I suspect that is more him than the hardware. I don't baby my MBP, but he is just terrible with things. He's lucky if a pair of glasses can last 6 months, ditto with a phone (usually broken screens), so I'm not sure I can blame the MB Air...
I think we have the exactly same problem with the Dell laptop. Anyway after reading through all comments I figured it is unlikely buy a Dell laptop, and less likely to buy a refurbished one as they only carry a 1-year warranty max (one year for 49 CAD and 100 days for free).
And yeah my 470S is still pretty strong. I started to use it again for my side projects.
I kinda wish I could find a contracting job, so that I can buy an expensive laptop and expense it as cost, and my wife won't cast an angry look towards me, lol.
I have the exact same issue with my XPS 9500. But for me it turned into a daily issue and there's a bunch of forum posts of people having this issue. I think it's a manufacturing defect and Dell just never admitted to it and just gave board replacements to people that had warranty (with plenty of posts of people complaining that the same issue came back after the replacement as well)
I went with an expensive XPS (their "carbon skin model") with the top config 3 years ago. The touch screen failed in less than a year, the battery become useless in 2 years and I am now in my second charger which is failing. The unit feels tired/old though the performance on what matters (cpu/memory/nvme) is still solid so far. I guess anything not made by Dell is holding on.
That's frustrating. I wonder if it changes anything if you had purchased extended Dell care back then. I just checked online that their 4 year basic care costs about 270 CAD so I might go for it if I buy a new one. Did you speak to Dell about this? I'd argue my case even if I had not purchased Dell Care.
But still, failing in a couple of years is really unacceptable. I was thinking 5 years for the battery and another 5 years for everything else. If you and me have to spend some $2,000 every 3-4 years it sounds more like a subscription service.
The other issue is that price point does not guarantee quality for any non-Apple boxes.
I am not US based and Dell service abroad is a joke. I'd check if that Dell Care is "real" as in not similar to "flight insurance" kind of insurance. Since Dell doesn't have the same international service as Apple, the experience will be very localized. I'd see if there is a Dell center nearby and check the reviews.
I've had very good experience with Dell support in the UK.
With the on-site option, they come to your home or business next day and fit any required parts.
I had a Dell laptop for work a while back where the MB died 3x in under 2 years... They replaced it all three times, and were a bit sus at the third one... but I literally left it in a locked drawer at work more often than I'd take it home.
The best experiences I've had with Dell hardware have been mid though... worse with HP, won'y buy their stuff at all any more.
I've had mixed to very good experiences with Lenovo... Even their cheaper IdeaPad options. My SO had an IdeaPad that lasted about 7 years, and she was pretty rough on it. Just replaced with another a few months ago. For what it's work, runs PopOS like a dream. On the down side are soldered ram, and shorter vnme drives that have apparently had higher failure rates, already have a replacement ready on a shelf.
My personal laptop is an M1 Air 16gb... it's been a pretty great little box, though with my vision what it is, has been very hard to actually use for much.
Thanks for the tip!
Are you really complaining about old battery packs and USB C ports as bad engineering? I think you should try the framework laptop because then you have no excuses about the trivial things.
I can live with the ports as many laptops are moving to it anyway. The battery and the charging port are the major concerns, especially the charging ports as I found out many Dell owners had to get a replacement motherboard, which is way too expensive for me. I'd expect the battery to live for at least 5 years and the whole motherboard should live at least 8 years.
I might mixed up System76 with Framework, I need to double check the subreddit
George Hotz is unpacking his new Framework right now and he's not happy: https://www.twitch.tv/georgehotz
I can imagine the complaints: - screen wobble - battery life - track pad - rigidity
-power consumption
-display quality
-sharp edges
I've owned a few XPS/X1 high end laptops in my time. Every single one of them had serious design flaws, as in "I'm not buying that again" type design flaw. That's true of every vendor.
I was sucked in by the advertising I guess. They looked very good on paper - good battery life for the time, thin, light, powerful, sleek, latest everything. I've built computer systems for most of my professional career. Looking back on it, how I could have possibly thought some fresh shiny new design first off the production line was going to be rock solid work horse is beyond me. Lack of critical thinking skills I guess.
Now, I buy something like a Dell Latitude. It's an enterprise machine. Translation: a plain, boring design with parts that have been trialed by the XPS/X1 suckers, so most of the bugs are ironed out. Enterprise tends to mean expensive. But they lose 75% of their value in 2 years, so second hand prices are very reasonable, and since Dell offers 5 years warranty on them they can effectively come with the same guarantees as a new one.
Enterprise also means well supported. It's almost night and day. Ring Dell about a Inspiron or even an XPS issue, and you are met with a wall of excuses. Contact them about an Latitude issue, you get a fast response. The one time I wasn't happy with the outcome, I said so in their "how did we go" questionnaire, and they rang me back begging me to let them have another go.
My sweet spot is the Wooking X16 - 7840HS/8845HS from taobao in China for ~500usd
bad trackpad, bad touchpad (bring your own for both), great thermals/performance, good screen, bad speakers, unbeatable value
no usb4 (but has 1x usbc)
I refused to get another thinkpad ever since the T14 AMD gen1 firmware debacle where plugging in a Dell usbc dock would cause the entire device to hard reboot
their firmware garbage is off-putting
I considered framework but the $2k+ price point to me was unreasonable
it's literally cheaper for me to carry around the X16 + kb + mouse/trackpad than to buy a framework 16 (I know that's not the point, but still)
https://4pda.to/forum/index.php?showtopic=1076401
The quality you get for the money from Mac's is truly unmatched by any other laptop out there - why not use a VM on it for other OS & software?
I don't disagree with you. I really really love the hardware -- and BTW it would be a dream if I get to work with OS/Hardware people in Apple. I don't like the software, especially the OS built-ins, but I guess I can find alternatives in App store.
I might eventually go down this route, if I can't find a reasonable good one. I use VMWare in Windows to access Linux on my 5550, so it's not a far stretch to switch the host.
Mac hardware with *true* Linux support would be heaven. I really hope that Framework can keep improving and get to that level eventually (please Framework, release and ARM chip, please)
Get a M1/M2 MacBook off eBay and install Asahi?
I have not purchased any laptop recently so I do not know about what is true right now.
However, whenever in the past 20 years I bought a laptop, for a given amount of money there were always laptops with better quality than any Apple model.
Moreover, while the Apple computers are fine for the general population, there are also users like myself, for whom the Apple products lack adequate computational performance. My laptops typically used Intel Xeon/NVIDIA Quadro combos that were much faster than anything sold by Apple and 4k screens and very good keyboards. Apple has a poor reputation for keyboards.
If I bought a laptop right now I would probably choose something with Ryzen 395, which easily beats any Apple CPU for the things in which I am interested, like computations with big integers and FP64 array operations. The very good single-thread GeekBench results of the Apple CPUs are not at all representative of the CPU performance in other kinds of workloads, where the Intel/AMD ISA still provides features not yet available in the Arm-based CPUs.
Why many comments in this thread indicate that at least the consumer laptops made by Dell have a poor quality nowadays, I still have a rather old Dell Precision mobile workstation (sold with Linux) with excellent quality that no Apple laptop ever approached. Of course, such a mobile workstation has poor battery lifetime, incomparable with that of an Apple laptop, but for my needs this is a really minor inconvenient in comparison with its advantages.
So the question then becomes, do you really need a laptop instead of an x86 desktop?
Just my 2 cents: I run a tuxedo laptop, that is just a branded clevo device. It isn't as greatly build as a Mac, because nothing is. But my tuxedo works well, nothing broke, or needed any repair. Can recommend. Branded clevo pcs in Germany are used by Schenker, Nexoc, Wortmann, One Computer, MIFCON and more. Internationally, brands like System76, BTO and XNB are using clevo. I've never heard of BTO and XNB, so this might be false information. But I've heard good things from System76.
Linux compatibility isn't what it used to be.
AMD and Intel support Linux as a first class platform, and everything CPU and GPU from them will work perfectly. Nvidia is on track to match them, albeit on proprietary drivers, if you use the most recent hardware, kernel and drivers. Qualcomm is still basically unusable and so is Apple.
The vast majority of popular and modern wireless chipsets have at least basic drivers in tree. Webcams, touchscreens and pens mostly work. Fingerprint sensors mostly don't work.
System76 has its place. You'll avoid hassle and you'll get the full feature set. You won't have to deal with bizarre edge cases around sleep, multi-gpu, or power saving features.
But truth be told, if you buy a new x86 laptop from any major brand, chances are that everything essential will work instantly or with a bit of tinkering under Linux.
i have a system76 laptop. underpowered for its price point but okay.
the firmware and OS integration is fairly smooth and it generally runs faster than i'd have assumed for a laptop that old.
i have money to spend these days and can afford a thinkpad or mac so i'll probably lean that direction but i would consider another system76 too
The market is splintered into high-end work laptop, low-end work laptops, gaming laptops. Only Apple has the brand value to be in the first set. Everyone else is in a market for lemons.
I think Apple makes really nice hardware but you can get better specs in as light (or lighter) frame elsewhere. I can compare AMD T14 Thinkpad to a Macbook. Thinkpad is faster, has more RAM (easy to get 64GB now), better keyboard. It's also louder, hotter and the screen is probably worse (mine is low end so it's significantly worse but idk how high end OLED compares). Macbooks have much better sound. Thinkpad runs Linux while Macbooks (the newest ones) still don't.
I think Apple is winning but not to the extent of being the only game in town.
“Better specs” is precisely why most laptops are garbage. There is no spec for “months until the screen starts visibly ghosting” or “percentage of the time standby doesn’t happen so your laptop is dead when you need it”. So you end up comparing the stats that are available, like GB/$, when for most people these are not the biggest factors in their day to day experience with the device. (If speed and memory are the biggest factors then a laptop is clearly the wrong device.)
ThinkPad T14 G1: mainboard replaced during first 6 months (cursor moving alone, with jitter, random crashes).
Now 4.5 years in: cursor moving randomly, with jitter (the same symptom as before), when TouchPad is activated. Plus: barely used trackpoint is defect.
That device was mainly used with an external keyboard and mouse -- no excessive usage of the built-ins.
I had this issue too, try grounding the charging cable so the static discharge has somewhere to flow
A few things:
My G11 carbon is tolerable, but I did have a motherboard replacement in mine mid cycle. Known issue with charging just giving up. I like my carbon, but its a lot of money.
I have a gen 1 carbon, a gen 7 carbon and a gen 11. I still think the G1 was best in a lot of silos. The keyboard especially.
The G11 is performing better than the G7 overall, the G7 had the shittiest case so far.
Recently did an analysis on price/performance across Dell, Lenovo and Surface for a customer, and the Lenovos came out at best quality but not price competitive. This was before EOFY however and vendor pricing might have turned over. I also got the impression that both Dell and Lenovo were halfway through launching new product lines, and certain features were only available in either new or old, not both.
The Dell Pro line of laptops seems quite bad, having deployed several. Seems like they are trying to take Latitude and split it into Bad and Worse categories. Cant praise a single thing on it, case feels worse, screens worse, everything just got soggier. But it has an Ultra sticker on it so YMMV.
Thanks, looks like you know a lot about laptops. Do you have a review blog or something similar? I really need to read more reviews before my next purchase. I'm especially interested in the used market.
I dont have a formal blog or anything, but I will take the assumption as a compliment.
My first G1 carbon traveled several hundred thousand kilometers with me, getting bashed around in airport security etc.
My G7 keyboard keys were falling off, having rarely left my office.
Brands arent as consistent as we would like them to be. Make sure any reviews you turn up are for the specific product you purchase.
Top of the line laptops from e.g. 2019 are very cheap and still competitive with current hardware for realistic use. You can find one with an i9 and 64gb of ram for $5-600, you'll just need to plug it in after a few hours!
Don't go ANYWHERE near a macbook pro 2019. Piece of garbage. I had to set mine to 100% fans and it went from 100% to 0% battery in 70 mins when I was streaming a meeting PLUGGED IN WITH A 90W CHARGER! The next time I buy Intel is NEVER.
The 2019 MBP series had serious thermal issues, and a high failure rate. They became insanely hot. Mine died 3 weeks after falling out of AppleCare - just switched off and never on during usage. A friend with the same model had the same thing happending just a few months after. You hardly see any of those still in use (which might also be because people upgrade to M-Series chips which are way better).
For laptops specifically, opening them up and blowing all the dust out can be a huge difference. After that, if the fan is making noise, it's not worth attempting recovery. If attempting this, consider whether your source is cheap enough in the case your test exposes this.
Blowing the dust out does run into the problem of some laptops being designed to only open with use of a chainsaw. I've ruined a couple laptops that way.
I used to buy laptops, and the external quality peaked at different times for different brands (the Asus all aluminum was wonderful, but Sony made some nice stuff twenty years ago as well), but for the actual guts-PCB, power supply, ..., they all seem like the same old sh^t. The monitors get better, but I swear all laptops slow down with age. The only solution is to re-install windows and start over.
I personally prefer desktop workstations. They are better.
>The other issue is that 5550 uses USB-C ports. I blame on myself not checking it closely before the purchase. I really hate those ports. Why is everyone copying from Mac?
It's not copying Apple. It's that every port does everything, including charging. It is standards-compliant.
As just one example, you no longer need to lug a laptop charger with you; there are no longer "computer chargers" and "phone chargers", but one charger that can charge everything, often simultaneously via multiple ports. When you combine this with a docking station, one cable truly does all.
It is wonderful. Embrace it.
The thing is, everything I bought don't use those ports. I have to buy a new keyboard and a new mouse (wireless mouses also need a driver dongle) for the ports.
And what is worse? New laptops have less ports than the older ones. That 5550 only has 3 ports and 1 is for charging. If I want to mount an external hard drive, I need to bring a hub.
What again, looks like everyone is doing that, so yeah, better embrace it.
The port count is a real problem on modern laptops. I like USB-C, but why are there so few of them? Having to have a hub for basic things is really annoying.
USB-C ports have so many features that require extra connections, which makes them costly. And then adding extra ports without those features gets confusing to the end user if it can't properly communicated.
Imagine having 4 USB-C ports, but 2 of them are USB 2.0 only. Like that but more complicated because it's a feature on a separate controller. Video out, which requires additional connections to the GPU. Power input, done through a USB-PD controller. PCI-E tunneling, taking up PCI-E lanes from the CPU.
Even looking at the Framework Laptop: https://frame.work/laptop16?tab=specs , only the Nvidia GPU USB-C port supports charging while the AMD one doesn't. Look at the section on the "6x user-selectable Expansion Cards" where they list the capabilities of the individual ports. I think different specs for those USB-C ports are less egregious because the idea is to install an expansion card, but giving 6 different USB-C ports like that to a regular user sounds like a bad idea.
> Imagine having 4 USB-C ports, but 2 of them are USB 2.0 only
To be fair, that's already how PC laptops are - they have USB-A ports with random colors and symbols on them that you need to figure out which is the good one, so I don't see why they aren't doing the same with USB-C.
I don't think it's the same because the only USB-A difference was speed. Maybe yellow charging port. And USB 2.0 is still 'working'
That's not the case with the other features I've mentioned.
I have a macbook pro. It has 3x USB-C, HDMI, a magsafe charger port, SD slot and audio jack.
I love having a dock, it means I get to hide all the wires behind the desk, and plug the laptop into power, two screens and all the other peripherals with a single cable.
Rapid change and new things are an integral part of tech especially laptops. This is a strange complaint
Rapid change and new things are an integral part of planned obsolescence and needing to justify your job to upper management. A sufficiently-repairable laptop with 16 gigs of RAM has absolutely no reason not to work for at least a decade, ideally longer.
Are you buying laptops without Bluetooth?
I was given a 2023 Dell XPS 13 for work. I was pretty stoked to go back to an XPS after using one in 2019 for work.
For some reason, the MOBO was dying slowly after a year. My other coworkers also reported similar problems.
Lenovo-wise:
At the end, I just built a desktop and use a Macbook Air. So far so good.Thanks. Another commenter also mentions about a desktop. Maybe I'll go down that route too. The problem is: Linux doesn't support USB wifi driver very well, so I might as well install Windows LTSC and VM into Linux. Oh well.
If you go desktop then running network cable or using PLN becomes a good option.
I had a X250 who died less than a month after the warranty, now got a E14 since ~2 years and it got keyboard issues
I have a Lenovo thinkpad T14 gen 1. Certainly not the fastest, but in have yet to find a problem running Linux. It suspends, hibernates and I haven’t found any quirks yet Everything works and it’s built like a tank. Battery has 600 cycles and I still get 4 hrs out of it, when in low power mode. I’m pretty sure the newer models aren’t that well built and supported. Maybe the gen 3 and 4 of the T14 is similar good. But YMMV..
I'm had 15 months of daily usage (8+ hours per day) of an Asus S16 and it's been pretty great. I haven't been lugging it around very much - mostly just using the 10 cores at my desk to run minikube and WSL and Windows and also gaming on it and I upgraded the SSD to 2GB. I was a longtime thinkpad bigot (T41, T42, T60, T430, T460s) but their near-complete shunning of AMD CPUs has been a FAIL. This laptop had some MediaTek WiFi issues and STILL doesn't always come out of sleep, but the 16" oled is fantastic, it's thinner and lighter and FASTER than a macbook air, I love the build quality and ceraluminum ceramic coating, and it plays just about any 3D game you can think about ... The 31 watt power limit clips all the performance off the hx370 / 890m GPU (32GB RAM) so I went with the hx365 / 880m GPU (24GB RAM). The low amount of RAM is my only complaint.
I bought a Dell XPS M1210 laptop in 2007. About a year later the laptop died. From what I could gather, the soldering on the NVIDIA 7400 graphics card had failed. Some people were apparently able to reflow it but I had no such luck.
In my opinion Dell laptops have never been good. But I never bought another one since that happened, so maybe I've missed out.
Had the same thing with an HP DV7 (IIRC) and nvidia 7600go. Baked it in the oven, and it booted up a handful more times, but ultimately died long before it should have. And I LOVED the more squarish form factor it had.. I got some $$ back from a credit card company (it died before 2 years were up), but I could only find 16:9 replacements..
I've used a Dell Precision 5530 professionally and got a 5570 refurb this year from ebay for ~$800. The fit and finish of the Precision 5000 series is great as far as I'm concerned, though I'm happy the camera is back on top of the screen and would appreciate a 10 key. The work model I used for 3 years and basically the only issue I had was on the Windows side with sleep states (waking up from sleep while commuting). I rarely work long off ac power, but <40% is always kind of a danger zone, especially when doing intensive tasks like CAD modeling. Again, worked connected to Dell workstation dock 90% of the time, so ports are not an issue, but the state of unpowered usbc dongles/micro-docks with hdmi/usba/usbc/++ makes stationary use a non-issue. I also had a 2016 XPS13 I only stopped using as a primary due to lack of ram expansion.
I got a used Precision 5540 from my work. I prefer it to my husband's 2024 Dell. The Linux battery life's even quite good, ~10 hours.
What on earth, I've got a 5540 and Linux battery life is atrocious, maybe 3 hours under light usage.
What are the specs?
I stopped being a Dell customer after owning 3 XPS for 13 years.
Currently using an Aussie brand named Metabox (metabox.com.au) for virtual production workload on Windows. I've been using a Macbook Pro for the last 5 years for general-purpose tasks. Also using a few $100 "mini PCs" for home automation.
could try asahi? i think it's pretty good on the m1.
lenovos remain good if you get a high spec thinkpad. maybe get a few year old high spec thinkpad new/refurb off ebay with a three year service contract (search "p1 gen 6" on ebay)? i think you can always re-up the service contract on new ones as well.
Yeah I heard a lot of good things about that. I'm a bit reluctant but I think eventually I'm going to give it a try.
I'll check with Dell and Thinkpad if I can buy extended service contracts. AFAIK Dell tops out at 4 years but maybe I can extend that later. I wouldn't mind if I have to pay half of the laptop price to get a 8-10 year contract because new laptops break up way too soon - and every time it is something small but critical, like the charging port thing that many people had to get a new motherboard from Dell.
idk. i don't think there's a good story if you're primarily interested in full-cycle e-waste minimization and avoidance. the mac hardware is good and is designed to live on timescales like that (probably because they are primarily aimed at building a good consumer brand) but it's also impossible to upgrade so there is some built-in planned obsolescence in that regard. (although it can be sold and replaced with other higher spec used gear).
the thinkpad and dell stuff is more upgradable, but is largely aimed at business markets where they plan on refreshing every 3-4 years.
i think maybe you get the most longevity (and possible warranty) out of thinkpad, but sadly none of this stuff is really designed to last that long.
e-waste sucks. unfortunately, our current dominant system of production doesn't really reward design for longevity. refreshing technology on the regular makes for a pleasant consumer experience, i wish it were less environmentally damaging.
framework has an angle on this, but i think in practice they're somewhat equivalent to thinkpads in terms of extendability. i also wonder how much you actually save when you start replacing everything over the long run.
I'd still be on my 2012 Macbook Pro if it weren't for the fact that I seemingly can't get a battery that lasts for it.
I got a 2021 Macbook M1 Pro to replace it, and I can't imagine needing to replace it for at least another 5 years given what I usually need my laptop to do (any really heavy compute gets off-loaded to a desktop). My only worry would be the same as my previous machine: the battery.
I'll give Framework a try when the time comes. It's probably the only one outside of Apple that I have any confidence in not being horrible in some way. There are some other options with decent Linux support, which I would need if I am to migrate away from Apple, but they are few and far between, especially if you rule out Lenovo.
What OS do you use on it? I have a 2014 Macbook Pro and macOS with CoreLegacyPatcher on Ventura was almost unusably slow. Older versions had issues with Safari, no modern Browser support (I found some chromium fork patched for older macOS versions but slow and no full feature support) etc. I installed Linux on it recently and it works better, use it as a secondary machine with some home-network services but would never consider it usable as a working machine.
I was on the latest officially supported OS, which I think was Catelina. No unofficial patches or anything. Had no problems with Firefox (other than battery life, which I didn't need other than it nominally being there).
To be fair, I did replace the SSD early in its lifespan, and I don't use my laptops for anything heavy. It could still play Youtube when I decommissioned it, and that was probably the heaviest thing I regularly did on it.
I don't know about Lenovo but Dell is so cheap, they've shrunk the diameter of even the case screws. All their laptop touchpads fail to draw a straight line over time. On their Insiprions, I know if the CMOS battery dies, the laptop will no longer turn on. Dell is absolute junk.
I remember people I knew at conferences who were extremely fond of Thinkpads due to being Linux geeks (at a time when it was harder to find hardware support for things we now consider basic features like wifi) complaining when it went from IBM to Lenovo the build quality went down. OTOH they were looking at migrating to Dell...
I've had good luck with a Macbook Air and running a Debian VM for anything of import. The build quality is good and I can go to a physical location for repairs.
(Though over time more and more can't be fixed on site sadly.)
OP needs to do some actual research on laptops before buying rather than just blindly buying used Lenovo and Dell systems.
Those brands aren’t really the end all be all like they used to be.
Based on the requirements that OP has I think they’d be really happy with a Framework system.
OP could also run Linux on the MacBook Pro M1 that they already own.
For laptop reviews, I’ve been enjoying Just Josh on YouTube, and he has a website associated with it. There’s also rtings.com
Another Lenovo model that’s getting acclaim as a solid premium laptop is the Lenovo X9 15 Aura Edition.
I have been using Dell Latitude and Precision for about 15 years and I have have great luck with them. Our guys that work out in the field with the Latitude laptops beat the crap out of them and we have very few issues. Not sure about Lenovo. I think they are called Pro and Pro Plus now.
It seems to be a general phenomenon with most brands that their quality is reduced with time.
There seems to be a lot of profit in buying brands with a reputation for high quality and then replacing it with lower quality and reaping the profits.
It shouldn't be legal if you ask me, it has elements of fraud, the brand should be consistent, Apple implies quality for example, if Apple where to release a cheap badly made product at an expensive price, they would be breaking the brand-contract.
The driver quality (mainly around display and sleep/resume features) has been terrible on my now 2 year old AMD powered Lenovo P14S. I've been using Lenovo laptops since 2001 and this one may push me to another brand for my next purchase. My issues have been seemingly slowly getting better with software updates but it's still really tarnishing the brand reputation/experience for me.
I had a Lenovo Thinkpad L14 Gen [the one with AMD Ryzen 5000 series], and in terms of build quality all I can say is that it's already dead due to motherboard flex (or rather, it can boot but resting my palms below the keyboard gives it a seizure).
So I would never recommend that one, but reportedly this is common among the "low-end" ThinkPads (mine was at around a thousand euros).
I had a work-issued Dell Latitude for several years (2021 model, 11th gen Intel). Overall it was a mediocre machine, but battery life really sucked (like, max 2 hours of light browsing). Several years older Thinkpad T480s gave me way longer usage. Older Dell models had better general build quality IMO, but also problems with expanding batteries.
For personal stuff just dual boot my old Thinkpad, at work I use Macbook.
About 15 years ago I had a Dell, then two Asus, and about 6 years ago I bought a Lenovo Thinkpad (T490), which I still use. The Thinkpad was a major step up in quality compared to everything I had before - I haven't even needed to replace the battery, though I think it has dropped from around 5 hours to 3-4 (I unplug it multiple times a day, every day, to use it in the kitchen or while sitting on a couch).
Apple Canada M4 Mac mini @ 799 CAD 10‑core 16GB 256GB SSD. Combine with USBC power bank and screen = instant laptop under <$1K CAD. Far better power efficiency than PCs. https://github.com/vk2diy/hackbook-m4-mini/blob/main/README....
I used to be a Dell customer; all my family members had Dell Latitude laptops. But I agree, they got worse. I had a fan break, a key fall out, and Bluetooth issues with some of them, and when it was time to upgrade, I moved to Apple MacBook. It took some time to learn how to work in the macOS environment, but I am happy now.
I'm having a lot of fun running Fedora in a VM with UTM on my MacBook (an old Intel one). You might try that if you already have an M1 MacBook.
X1 Carbons are mOdErN Apple-inspired slimslop. If a T-series or thiccy X-series had those kind of battery issues I'd be worried.
Thinkpad X1 Carbon gen 13 here. Super happy with it. I do not see any flaws, decent battery lifetime. Perfect linux support. I am calculating 7+ years for that machine. I think its worth it. But there are many other less expensive Lenovo configurations. Not sure about the quality
On battery life: what is decent for you? I wonder, because the T14S that many are vouching for here gives me around 1.5h which is not the best, but I probably will be in the market for an X1 next year, so I wonder what to expect.
I get about 7 hours of coding
that is near macbook levels!, good to know and seems promising. the thing with advertised battery duration they always overestimate, thank you!
I got a Lenovo Legion 7i with a i9-13 and a rtx gpu for work and I have been very happy with it. Build quality is solid imo, it is very upgradable, and the battery size is generous with easily configurable charge limiting. Lenovo also seems to have good support so far. All in all, a professional experience for a consumer device from my point of view.
It’s a mess! Owner of a Lenovo t14s gen3 here. Standby works for a day then the battery is drained. My MacBook will be on standby for weeks without any issue. Lenovo and Microsoft pointing on each other on this one is a shame as it’s not going to be fixed.
I bought a Lenovo laptop a couple of years ago and returned it immediately because it was bizarrely loud and stopped recognizing half of its ram capacity. I got an equivalent HP for a little more, and I've had much less complaints.
Fuck yes. Our 2022 Latitude 5420s have the worst lithium ever -- and Dell is actually offering to get you good batteries for twice the price, as an 'extended service life battery'.
This, and literally all of them have paint chipping off the chassis at the slightest provocation. I have like 50 at work.
edit: we have now a mix of MacBook Airs/Pros (most of workforce), Frameworks (specialized tech roles running Linux and resource-intensive software) and HP ProBooks (run-of-the-mill Windows machines, or just where you don't need anything special at all).
I work in the refurb division of an ewaste recycling company. Those silver Dell laptops are impossible to keep looking good. A coworker once peeled off all the silver and sold a few in black. He said that someone told him that those models never came in black, and had a laugh after explaining that all of them are, because it's under the silver.
Same issue here with our latitudes. They all look disgusting with half the paint gone.
Yes, Apple seems to be the only company that actually cares about the quality of their laptop in my experience. And I say that as someone who used to run Linux on my laptops in 2010~18..
Dell really seems to have taken a nosedive in quality the last few years. My wife and father both have an XPS and have had nothing but complaints.
Meanwhile my M2 MacBook pro is still going strong
On my X1 Carbon 10th gen.... I changed the usb-c ports like 4 times, and now only one works. Not to mention that the black paint peels and it looks horrible.
Still daily driving an old x220 and a T480. Last time they were actually decent. You can pry them out of my cold dead hands.
I wish they'd make something like the x220 again.
My sweet spot are thinkpads that are a couple years old, usually. Especially the workstations. You can save a grand or so and they're pretty serviceable.
Have you considered at Framework? In my opinion, the two best brands are ThinkPads (though it depends on the model) and Frameworks.
Macbook and ssh into Linux workstation.
I have been using MacBooks for the last 20+ years (back then they were called PowerBooks). A couple of days ago I have got a top spec Dell G5 15 5500 and I needed to upgrade the SSD. Oh. my. god. I did not realize the world of PC laptops is that much broken. This Dell has such a dismal quality of everything it's not even funny. Like, I am prepared and ready to pay premium price for premium computer, but why won't Dell create one for me? Do all Windows people need a computer that's shit?
If you already have a macbook why not just buy a PC at this point? You can change parts that break, you won't have to deal with battery issues and if you are on a budget you can only buy what you need today and upgrade later.
edit: to lenovo/dell question I'd say the quality varies by model - lower end thinkpads are better while expensive one got worse. But there are still a lot of differences between a small business series and enterprise. USB-C perfect as a connector, but if it is not replaceble it is a nightmare.
You have a MacBook Pro M1. It runs linux perfectly fine. Why not do that?
Buy a macbook air and run linux via orbstack.
Work got me an hp elite book a few year ago and the only thing negative I have to say about it is that the screen is pathetic! Otherwise it's a decent yet overpriced (unless you buy hundreds of them each year like my work place does) laptop. I used to run arch Linux at work but I was denied my favorite OS this time because it's wasn't compatible with the EDR software... So i cannot tell you how bad it is with Linux.
It still hold its charge but then I mostly work on it plugged either via RDP from my personal workstation at home or from the docking station in my office at the campus. So it has less than 50 charge cycles.
Could you please Elaborate?
I had a hilarious experience the other day with an (HP) laptop that I thought might be fun to share here.
I've been getting into astrophotography recently, so I went out to my local Astronomy club's dark site in Middle-Of-Nowhere, Ohio, star tracker, DSLR, lens and nearly brand new HP Gaming Laptop I bought specifically for this purpose in tow.
It was cold as shit outside - 25 with a wind chill of just under 15 degrees. But I came prepared, and the club has a small heated clubhouse on the grounds of the site, so I set up all my equipment, did my polar alignment, and left my laptop plugged into a power outlet and remoted into it on my iPad so I could monitor the data capture from inside where it was warm.
About 20 minutes later, I lost remote access to my laptop suddenly. No problem, I thought. I headed outside to go debug what was going on, to find that the laptop had shut down randomly. That's weird. I tried to turn the laptop on, and it spun on the windows logo for over 5 minutes. I got worried that somehow out of all this gear I brought out to the middle of nowhere in the freezing cold, somehow the laptop was what had died. I try force-resetting a few times, to the point where I get the windows recovery environment, and it boots _so slowly_ that I think something is seriously wrong. Then the CMOS battery reset screen comes up (what the fuck?) and I finally get it to boot after about 8 attempts. However, it's so slow it's completely unusable - the CPU is pegged at the lowest possible frequency and just opening up the controller software for my star tracker takes nearly 5 minutes. decide to pack it in for the night, assuming my laptop is dying.
I bring all my equipment inside to tear it down, and leave the laptop in the warmth for 15 or so minutes while I tear everything else down. Then I hear the familiar Windows 11 startup chime behind me. I turn around and the laptop happily boots up, running at full speed, as if nothing was wrong.
Friends, the laptop got _too cold_. I have never experienced this before in my life, and I have put laptops through similarly extreme conditions in the past for other projects, let alone all the Raspberry Pi's I've left to bake in the sun and freeze in the cold. I am so done with modern technology, I want to return to 2011 when Thinkpads were good, Macbooks were great, and phones couldn't break my brain's dopamine circuits. I'm so tired.
Ha! That's a right of passage, lithium ion batteries state of charge drops to almost 0 when it's below freezing. If you left your phone out with your laptop it'd have the same problem. There's actually special phones you can get that are meant to keep functioning below freezing, usually by means of a battery heater.
I too have done the same thing you experienced.
Now I run everything off of a minipc with a lead acid UPS.
This is also why most of your power packs to run astronomy gear are still lead acid and not lithium. Celestron's not just trying to sell you last generation equipment at a steep mark up, there's a reason for it
Lenovo is still good overall. The E-series are actually very nicely built for low end machines, if you can look past the poor colour rendering displays.
Dell, however is absolute trash now from what I’ve seen.
yes. next question.
Hey bro, I saw your reply to my comment elsewhere asking if Revolut works on GrapheneOS. But I can't reply to it because the thread is locked.
Anyway, it does. https://privsec.dev/posts/android/banking-applications-compa...